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Post by iank on May 23, 2024 22:04:36 GMT
I didn't become a Who fan out any desire to be "cool", and that desperate pandering to the lamestream is one of the reasons the RTD era sucked so badly. It's also part of the reason why so much of established fandom was so willing and ready to throw away sacred tenets of the show and the character, because they so desperately wanted to be accepted by the cool kids.
Kinda lame and embarrassing, if you ask me...
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Post by burrunjor on May 23, 2024 22:13:27 GMT
Nah, sorry, Davies started everything we're drowning in now. I know Yak wants to excuse him for his childhood nostalgia, but he was writing the character of the Doctor out of existence from episode 1. Moffat was the only one even attempting to fight against that, which is why his two Doctors are the only ones even vaguely recognisable as the same character. Everything about New Who was wrong from the start - the format, the bastardisation of the lead, the emphasis on the companion more than the Doctor, the soppy shit... I don't in any way excuse Moffat but if I had a gun to my head I'd still rather watch one of his eps, if only for the leads, than any of Davies' dumbed down drivel with the gurning cockney lothario. Again though Iank whilst that is true of RTD 1's era being a bastardisation of the character, like I said his influence was largely undone by the end of Matt Smith's time. Matt bridged the gap between new who fans and classic era fans, by being a mix of both and with the casting of Capaldi and nostalgia for the 50th, and Gallifrey returned, Capaldi's era could have easily been more of a return to classic who's style. Imagine if Moffat had done that and it had been successful, the next Doctor would have been more likely to be a proper choice as well. However Moffat for reasons I've been over above and won't repeat, just took it in a worse direction and honestly even if Chibnall hadn't been an absolute hack do you think that the show would have been able to recover from what Moffat did in the Capaldi era? Fact is RTD 1's influence as evidenced by Matt could be undone, Capaldi era's couldn't and we're still drowning in it's after effect 10 years on. |
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2024 22:25:42 GMT
I don't even give a shit tbh, it was a great show for 4 or so seasons, even if it is largely divorced from the original. I appreciate Jon Pertwee and David Tennant stories on completely different levels. I like that they sexed it up a bit, even if it was largely via innuendo, it made it feel a bit more dangerous. One of my main critiques of the Chibnall era is how detitillated it is, when we're living through one of the most openly sexual periods in modern history. I mean, I appreciate I am biased because I am a gay guy who sleeps around a fair bit and I have a few hangups about being seen as "cool", but RTD Who was so pertinent to the early 2000s, Rose really feels like it takes place in 2005 London. As opposed to Moffat who doesn't know how to write, produce or shoot urban environments convincingly and as a result his depictions of modern city life feel phoney and inauthentic. And so what if Doctor Who covers current mainstream trends? Are you gonna lambast Barbara and Ian listening to the Beatles? Or Pertwee's bouffant hairdo? Or Peri's catsuits? Or the entire character of Ace?
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Post by burrunjor on May 23, 2024 22:52:58 GMT
I don't even give a shit tbh, it was a great show for 4 or so seasons, even if it is largely divorced from the original. I appreciate Jon Pertwee and David Tennant stories on completely different levels. I like that they sexed it up a bit, even if it was largely via innuendo, it made it feel a bit more dangerous. One of my main critiques of the Chibnall era is how detitillated it is, when we're living through one of the most openly sexual periods in modern history. I mean, I appreciate I am biased because I am a gay guy who sleeps around a fair bit and I have a few hangups about being seen as "cool", but RTD Who was so pertinent to the early 2000s, Rose really feels like it takes place in 2005 London. As opposed to Moffat who doesn't know how to write, produce or shoot urban environments convincingly and as a result his depictions of modern city life feel phoney and inauthentic. And so what if Doctor Who covers current mainstream trends? Are you gonna lambast Barbara and Ian listening to the Beatles? Or Pertwee's bouffant hairdo? Or Peri's catsuits? Or the entire character of Ace? I think if you're going to reference current trends they need to be things that people will remember. Ian and Barbara listening to the Beatles is fine. Love them or hate them, they are a huge band who would be remembered for decades to come. I know this is biased coming from me, but if Rose or Martha had say listened to Amy Winehouse or Lady Gaga then that would have been fine as again love them or hate them, they are the types who are going to last. (It's already 15 years later and one has a movie released about her, the other is starring as Harley Quinn LOL.) Also you have to pick what fads will work for the Doctor. For instance Pertwee trying to cash in on the dapper gentlemen fad that was popular at the time like Steed and Jason King, wasn't out of place as the Doctor did wear fancy old fashioned clothes and was a bit of an old fashioned gentleman anyway. Even adding in that he knew kung fu, well he was always a Jack of All Trades type of hero who was skilled in many different areas, he stars in an action show, and Hartnell could fight too, and it didn't detract from the character. It's not like he was Batman, it was just a thing he could use to get out of situations. RTD however picked such shallow trends like X-Factor, The Weakest Link, Homes Under The Hammer, Trinny and Suzannah etc that were forgotten about within 5 or so years. Also these things were a poor fit for DW as was the attempt at sexing him up which jarred too much with the character. Ace on the other hand I'll give you, but to be fair she has often been slagged for being an out of touch middle aged guys attempts at writing a totally radical teenage girl LOL. Ultimately though Ace is a good character beyond that, and even then whilst she is a bit cringey that way in some of her dialogue like BOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMM it's still not as bad as new who. Remember Ace is still meant to come from a few years in the future, so she's still not linked to a specific era. Also she doesn't make references to popular culture from the 80s. Really she was designed to reflect the youth by being more of a tomboy, badass. One that little boys could hang out with and talk about their interests with, and who was a stronger role model for little girls. In all honesty Ace was ahead of her time in that respect as I pointed out in another thread. She was kind of the prototype to characters like Faith from Buffy and Kelly from Ash Vs Evil Dead in that respect who would prove to be very popular. Meanwhile again I would have had 0 objection to them making a sexier DW as long as it had been a remake, and not a follow on, but yeah we've covered that. Finally whilst the modern age is obsessed with sex, honestly to me it seems like in the worst way. It's not a fun summer of love type way, it's more a neurotic George Costanza type of a way LOL. |
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Post by Cherry Pepsi Maxil on May 23, 2024 23:02:02 GMT
Moffat was sane until the Capaldi era when he decided to completely bugger everything up.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2024 23:14:28 GMT
I don't even give a shit tbh, it was a great show for 4 or so seasons, even if it is largely divorced from the original. I appreciate Jon Pertwee and David Tennant stories on completely different levels. I like that they sexed it up a bit, even if it was largely via innuendo, it made it feel a bit more dangerous. One of my main critiques of the Chibnall era is how detitillated it is, when we're living through one of the most openly sexual periods in modern history. I mean, I appreciate I am biased because I am a gay guy who sleeps around a fair bit and I have a few hangups about being seen as "cool", but RTD Who was so pertinent to the early 2000s, Rose really feels like it takes place in 2005 London. As opposed to Moffat who doesn't know how to write, produce or shoot urban environments convincingly and as a result his depictions of modern city life feel phoney and inauthentic. And so what if Doctor Who covers current mainstream trends? Are you gonna lambast Barbara and Ian listening to the Beatles? Or Pertwee's bouffant hairdo? Or Peri's catsuits? Or the entire character of Ace? RTD however picked such shallow trends like X-Factor, The Weakest Link, Homes Under The Hammer, Trinny and Suzannah etc that were forgotten about within 5 or so years. Also these things were a poor fit for DW as was the attempt at sexing him up which jarred too much with the character. When were X-Factor and Homes Under the Hammer ever a part of Doctor Who? |
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Post by zarius on May 24, 2024 6:58:35 GMT
Moffat was sane until the Capaldi era when he decided to completely bugger everything up. Moffat's worst stuff was with Smith after series five. Capaldi's material ranged from dour to just about passable, with the occasional sparks of brilliance. |
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Post by burrunjor on May 24, 2024 7:21:03 GMT
RTD however picked such shallow trends like X-Factor, The Weakest Link, Homes Under The Hammer, Trinny and Suzannah etc that were forgotten about within 5 or so years. Also these things were a poor fit for DW as was the attempt at sexing him up which jarred too much with the character. When were X-Factor and Homes Under the Hammer ever a part of Doctor Who? Pretty sure season 2 contains a big reference to the then X Factor winner going on tour in 2012? Meanwhile isn't Homes Under The Hammer one of the shows the Daleks are recreating? I may be mistaken about that reference but either way the point still stands. It was tedious crap that already makes the RTD era look dated. I'm sure it is a nice time capsule to those who grew up in that time, but honestly it can make it a bit more dated. |
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Post by Ludders II on May 24, 2024 8:28:40 GMT
Re: Davies/Moffat
I agree with bits of all of you, but none of you entirely.
Basically, it was all flawed in different ways from day one. But I think people try to give even pre-Missy Moffat too much of a free pass. Moffat didn't go down the pan with Capaldi. In my opinion S6 is mostly dire. That's where he at least started to go down the pan, and for me that's looking at it with as much 'positivity' as I can muster.
In a nutshell, I'd say Moffat's best was better than Davies' best. But Moffat's worst is as bad as anything that Davies did. At least in RTD1. As for the current shite, well that's on another level again, and admittedly harder to call at this stage. But I actually think it's the absolute pits, so far. Even more than Chibnall in a way. I mean Jodie was so infantile, despite all its pretentions it felt more like a kids show than any era before it, IMO. It had almost had a SJA vibe at times. Another piece of RTD crap, even if preferable to Torchwood. Yes, Torchwood was THAT bad. lol
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2024 12:23:05 GMT
I just saw something on the r/DoctorWho Reddit page from a long-time "fan" who literally admitted to never having seen a full episode of the show, despite still thinking they had the right to rant about Ncuti Gatwa and transphobia. Had about 100 or so upvotes from the other "fans" who genuinely believe that someone who hasn't seen one f*cking episode has just as much worth as a fan as someone who's been collecting memorabilia for decades and knows the names of everyone involved behind the scenes since 1963. This is the "modern audience" they want to cultivate, people who don't actually watch it but clog up social media with slogans and shallow mantra-chanting. I seriously hate that "everyone can be a fan" mentality. No. Not everyone is on equal footing when it comes to fandom. I'll admit I'm not as much of a fan as Ian or Burrunjor, that's fine. They have more DW clout than me. Seriously, not all fans are equal. Why can't we just admit that?
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Post by iank on May 24, 2024 21:57:21 GMT
Sounds about typical, and explains a great deal. THIS is who you're pandering to Russell and co. And that's why your ratings suck and so do your merch sales.
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Post by UncleDeadly on May 24, 2024 22:06:00 GMT
Moffat was sane until the Capaldi era when he decided to completely bugger everything up. Moffat's worst stuff was with Smith after series five. Capaldi's material ranged from dour to just about passable, with the occasional sparks of brilliance. I agree. Except for the bits about passable and brilliance... |
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Post by UncleDeadly on May 24, 2024 22:12:55 GMT
Sounds about typical, and explains a great deal. THIS is who you're pandering to Russell and co. And that's why your ratings suck and so do your merch sales. What merch sales? Even the guy who designed the Tardises for Character Options admitted that there was no longer any demand in a youtube video several years ago...  |
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Post by Cherry Pepsi Maxil on Jun 3, 2024 9:46:08 GMT
IMDB is a f*cking joke to me. The fact that it's rated that high is a disgrace. Undermines their opinions collectively on ANYTHING. Likewise, a 6/10 score for a TV episode (usually treated more leniently on there) invariably indicates that it’s bollocks Think it's fair to say this is officially the worst rated RTD related episode ever. 5.3 The Twin Dilemma, which is also a 5.3, was "the beginning of the end" in Russell's eyes. I wonder how Space Babies will be remembered when the eventual death of the show happens. Ian Levine loathes this more than Fear Her and I'm inclined to agree. |
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Post by Cherry Pepsi Maxil on Jun 9, 2024 7:59:26 GMT
Bloody hell, Space Babies is getting a Target novel!
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