Davies' return: A mainstream success or a tired damp squib?

[Bernard Marx]

Incidentally:

“f*ck Russell T Davies”

- My Dad, last night when walking the dog.

[burrunjor]

Jan 6, 2024 11:44:52 GMT Bernard Marx said:

Incidentally:

“f*ck Russell T Davies”

- My Dad, last night when walking the dog.

He is a wise man. 

[Deleted]

Jan 6, 2024 11:44:52 GMT Bernard Marx said:

Incidentally:

“f*ck Russell T Davies”

- My Dad, last night when walking the dog.

I'd advise him to finish walking the dog first before he does something like that...

[burrunjor]

Jan 5, 2024 13:08:40 GMT @kengrubshaw said:

RTD said this in a recent interview:

Homophobia and transphobia happens when it’s something you’ve never seen before. You can temper that reaction and change it when you introduce these images to people happily and normally and calmly when they’re young. Then it just becomes normal.”

You know something? He is right. That IS a good way of combating prejudice. Homosexuality and transgenderism should just be presented as normal things that some people are, some people aren't, it makes no difference.

Only problem is RTD and the rest of his out of touch, aging, want to recapture their youth when they thought they were revolutionaries, but to the rest of us they were obnoxious, spoiled Oxford boys shouting "f*ck FATCHA" clique of yes men fail to realise, is that they are not presenting homosexuality or trans people as normal. They are making both look like something that has to take over your entire personality, identity, that you have to shove in people's faces all the time to be validated, and that has to be a little exclusive clique, that dominates anything it is a part of, whilst reinforcing harmful stereotypes that they still think are groundbreaking .

Yeah Russell if you insisted on bringing those subjects into a show that has always been basically sexless anyway, by all means have a gay companion or a trans companion who is a fully rounded character, who just goes on adventures with the Doctor, fits in with its established world and that's that.  

However you instead first of all write almost all your gay characters as FLAMING caricatures who hate women in Queer as Folk. You define almost every aspect of all your LGBT characters simply by the fact that they are LGBT like Rose, you hyper sexualise them in ways that people wouldn't with a straight character in a family show, (like the Doctor making references to sticking fingers up his arse.) You also insist that only gay actors play gay characters to further help limit them, and you write a character like the Toymaker, whose sexuality was never even mentioned as a gay character, simply because his actor is gay. (Again you also write him as a flaming caricature, dressing up in women's make up, mincing around, sitting next to the women in the office and gossiping on the phone etc.) 

Meanwhile in terms of what you've done to DW, you've made it look like gay representation is something that will overtake ANY product it is a part of. I obviously don't agree with this, and will still write LGBT characters in my work and unlike you will actually present them as normal, fully rounded people, but sadly a lot of reactionary people are pushing the idea that as soon as you let the gays take over something they make it all about them based on DW because of YOU! 

Hmmm lets see. 

Thanks to you and your buddies, we've had.

The Master being completely rewritten into being the Doctors former gay lover, undoing decades worth of stories and what the character was meant to be. We've also had books, big finish stories, articles all rewriting his history in the classic era to make out he was always gay, even Roger Delgado's own f*cking biography now has to include references to that and leave out his actual plans for the character. 

The Doctor himself becoming gay, and a stereotype at that calling everybody babes and dancing around in clubs and spends his first episode in his underpants. Also again we have to rewrite his history so that now he was always in the closet, again undoing decades of stories and identity that people liked.

The Doctor becoming an extremely clumsy metaphor for transgenderism, which both undermines the idea of gender dysphoria by basically making out there is no such thing, as apparently there is no difference whatsoever between a male Doctor and a female one. Nope only a bigot might find it jarring to believe it was still Hartnell under Jodie's face, in which case why are all these transgender people whinging about being trapped in the wrong body eh? Oh and top of that you also made out that being trans is like being some weird, funky alien that switches gender through that crap with Rose, and that only trans people could understand the Doctor, a character for everyone before hand.

You have to make it stereotypically gay in other ways, like throwing in musical numbers that have o place in a show like this, which will apparently become a regular occurence. 

You've openly admitted to hiring actors, writers and producers just because they are LGBT and you want to push diversity.

People being blacklisted from the franchise if they don't agree with your kind of activism. 

The fandom being taken over by LGBT activists who you actively encourage to bully people in vile ways if they don't like your changes, with the LGBT people also being given priority IE articles about how they understand DW better than anyone (really? I could have sworn Robert Holmes, Terry Nation, Hinchcliff and Barry Letts were all straight?)  And exclusionary comments from the elites of fandom like "why do straight people even watch DW?"

Now again I am NOT saying that is what gay people always do. JNT for instance who was a gay man, never came close to doing the same shit RTD did. He actually liked sci fi and DW, and wanted to make DW. Meanwhile Moffat who was straight did what RTD did to some extent in reverse. Made the Doctor more of a jack the lad like him, filled it full of Scottish people etc. 

Still ultimately as far as gay representation goes, RTD and people like him have set things back by about 20 f*cking years to the point where I do worry if I have a trans or a gay character in my work, I'm worried people will just assume that I'm going woke, when that wasn't the case at all even just 10 years ago.  

 

 

[Deleted]

Jan 6, 2024 12:50:37 GMT burrunjor said:

Jan 5, 2024 13:08:40 GMT @kengrubshaw said:

RTD said this in a recent interview:

Homophobia and transphobia happens when it’s something you’ve never seen before. You can temper that reaction and change it when you introduce these images to people happily and normally and calmly when they’re young. Then it just becomes normal.”

You know something? He is right. That IS a good way of combating prejudice. Homosexuality and transgenderism should just be presented as normal things that some people are, some people aren't, it makes no difference.

Only problem is RTD and the rest of his out of touch, aging, want to recapture their youth when they thought they were revolutionaries, but to the rest of us they were obnoxious, spoiled Oxford boys shouting "f*ck FATCHA" clique of yes men fail to realise, is that they are not presenting homosexuality or trans people as normal. They are making both look like something that has to take over your entire personality, identity, that you have to shove in people's faces all the time to be validated, and that has to be a little exclusive clique, that dominates anything it is a part of, whilst reinforcing harmful stereotypes that they still think are groundbreaking .

Yeah Russell if you insisted on bringing those subjects into a show that has always been basically sexless anyway, by all means have a gay companion or a trans companion who is a fully rounded character, who just goes on adventures with the Doctor, fits in with its established world and that's that.  

However you instead first of all write almost all your gay characters as FLAMING caricatures who hate women in Queer as Folk. You define almost every aspect of all your LGBT characters simply by the fact that they are LGBT like Rose, you hyper sexualise them in ways that people wouldn't with a straight character in a family show, (like the Doctor making references to sticking fingers up his arse.) You also insist that only gay actors play gay characters to further help limit them, and you write a character like the Toymaker, whose sexuality was never even mentioned as a gay character, simply because his actor is gay. (Again you also write him as a flaming caricature, dressing up in women's make up, mincing around, sitting next to the women in the office and gossiping on the phone etc.) 

Meanwhile in terms of what you've done to DW, you've made it look like gay representation is something that will overtake ANY product it is a part of. I obviously don't agree with this, and will still write LGBT characters in my work and unlike you will actually present them as normal, fully rounded people, but sadly a lot of reactionary people are pushing the idea that as soon as you let the gays take over something they make it all about them based on DW because of YOU! 

Hmmm lets see. 

Thanks to you and your buddies, we've had.

The Master being completely rewritten into being the Doctors former gay lover, undoing decades worth of stories and what the character was meant to be. We've also had books, big finish stories, articles all rewriting his history in the classic era to make out he was always gay, even Roger Delgado's own f*cking biography now has to include references to that and leave out his actual plans for the character. 

The Doctor himself becoming gay, and a stereotype at that calling everybody babes and dancing around in clubs and spends his first episode in his underpants. Also again we have to rewrite his history so that now he was always in the closet, again undoing decades of stories and identity that people liked.

The Doctor becoming an extremely clumsy metaphor for transgenderism, which both undermines the idea of gender dysphoria by basically making out there is no such thing, as apparently there is no difference whatsoever between a male Doctor and a female one. Nope only a bigot might find it jarring to believe it was still Hartnell under Jodie's face, in which case why are all these transgender people whinging about being trapped in the wrong body eh? Oh and top of that you also made out that being trans is like being some weird, funky alien that switches gender through that crap with Rose, and that only trans people could understand the Doctor, a character for everyone before hand.

You have to make it stereotypically gay in other ways, like throwing in musical numbers that have o place in a show like this, which will apparently become a regular occurence. 

You've openly admitted to hiring actors, writers and producers just because they are LGBT and you want to push diversity.

People being blacklisted from the franchise if they don't agree with your kind of activism. 

The fandom being taken over by LGBT activists who you actively encourage to bully people in vile ways if they don't like your changes, with the LGBT people also being given priority IE articles about how they understand DW better than anyone (really? I could have sworn Robert Holmes, Terry Nation, Hinchcliff and Barry Letts were all straight?)  And exclusionary comments from the elites of fandom like "why do straight people even watch DW?"

Now again I am NOT saying that is what gay people always do. JNT for instance who was a gay man, never came close to doing the same shit RTD did. He actually liked sci fi and DW, and wanted to make DW. Meanwhile Moffat who was straight did what RTD did to some extent in reverse. Made the Doctor more of a jack the lad like him, filled it full of Scottish people etc. 

Still ultimately as far as gay representation goes, RTD and people like him have set things back by about 20 f*cking years to the point where I do worry if I have a trans or a gay character in my work, I'm worried people will just assume that I'm going woke, when that wasn't the case at all even just 10 years ago.  

 

 

He's right. He's just the wrong writer to do it.

[Deleted]

I have no problem with Yasmin. RTD wrote her to be the most obnoxious character in the episode sadly. You can't really start preaching acceptance and then have your character rag on a man for not being a woman anymore. Does anyone not see the hypocrisy in that?

[Deleted]

Jan 6, 2024 12:50:37 GMT burrunjor said:

Jan 5, 2024 13:08:40 GMT @kengrubshaw said:

RTD said this in a recent interview:

Homophobia and transphobia happens when it’s something you’ve never seen before. You can temper that reaction and change it when you introduce these images to people happily and normally and calmly when they’re young. Then it just becomes normal.”

You know something? He is right. That IS a good way of combating prejudice. Homosexuality and transgenderism should just be presented as normal things that some people are, some people aren't, it makes no difference.

Only problem is RTD and the rest of his out of touch, aging, want to recapture their youth when they thought they were revolutionaries, but to the rest of us they were obnoxious, spoiled Oxford boys shouting "f*ck FATCHA" clique of yes men fail to realise, is that they are not presenting homosexuality or trans people as normal. They are making both look like something that has to take over your entire personality, identity, that you have to shove in people's faces all the time to be validated, and that has to be a little exclusive clique, that dominates anything it is a part of, whilst reinforcing harmful stereotypes that they still think are groundbreaking .

Yeah Russell if you insisted on bringing those subjects into a show that has always been basically sexless anyway, by all means have a gay companion or a trans companion who is a fully rounded character, who just goes on adventures with the Doctor, fits in with its established world and that's that.  

However you instead first of all write almost all your gay characters as FLAMING caricatures who hate women in Queer as Folk. You define almost every aspect of all your LGBT characters simply by the fact that they are LGBT like Rose, you hyper sexualise them in ways that people wouldn't with a straight character in a family show, (like the Doctor making references to sticking fingers up his arse.) You also insist that only gay actors play gay characters to further help limit them, and you write a character like the Toymaker, whose sexuality was never even mentioned as a gay character, simply because his actor is gay. (Again you also write him as a flaming caricature, dressing up in women's make up, mincing around, sitting next to the women in the office and gossiping on the phone etc.) 

Meanwhile in terms of what you've done to DW, you've made it look like gay representation is something that will overtake ANY product it is a part of. I obviously don't agree with this, and will still write LGBT characters in my work and unlike you will actually present them as normal, fully rounded people, but sadly a lot of reactionary people are pushing the idea that as soon as you let the gays take over something they make it all about them based on DW because of YOU! 

Hmmm lets see. 

Thanks to you and your buddies, we've had.

The Master being completely rewritten into being the Doctors former gay lover, undoing decades worth of stories and what the character was meant to be. We've also had books, big finish stories, articles all rewriting his history in the classic era to make out he was always gay, even Roger Delgado's own f*cking biography now has to include references to that and leave out his actual plans for the character. 

The Doctor himself becoming gay, and a stereotype at that calling everybody babes and dancing around in clubs and spends his first episode in his underpants. Also again we have to rewrite his history so that now he was always in the closet, again undoing decades of stories and identity that people liked.

The Doctor becoming an extremely clumsy metaphor for transgenderism, which both undermines the idea of gender dysphoria by basically making out there is no such thing, as apparently there is no difference whatsoever between a male Doctor and a female one. Nope only a bigot might find it jarring to believe it was still Hartnell under Jodie's face, in which case why are all these transgender people whinging about being trapped in the wrong body eh? Oh and top of that you also made out that being trans is like being some weird, funky alien that switches gender through that crap with Rose, and that only trans people could understand the Doctor, a character for everyone before hand.

You have to make it stereotypically gay in other ways, like throwing in musical numbers that have o place in a show like this, which will apparently become a regular occurence. 

You've openly admitted to hiring actors, writers and producers just because they are LGBT and you want to push diversity.

People being blacklisted from the franchise if they don't agree with your kind of activism. 

The fandom being taken over by LGBT activists who you actively encourage to bully people in vile ways if they don't like your changes, with the LGBT people also being given priority IE articles about how they understand DW better than anyone (really? I could have sworn Robert Holmes, Terry Nation, Hinchcliff and Barry Letts were all straight?)  And exclusionary comments from the elites of fandom like "why do straight people even watch DW?"

Now again I am NOT saying that is what gay people always do. JNT for instance who was a gay man, never came close to doing the same shit RTD did. He actually liked sci fi and DW, and wanted to make DW. Meanwhile Moffat who was straight did what RTD did to some extent in reverse. Made the Doctor more of a jack the lad like him, filled it full of Scottish people etc. 

Still ultimately as far as gay representation goes, RTD and people like him have set things back by about 20 f*cking years to the point where I do worry if I have a trans or a gay character in my work, I'm worried people will just assume that I'm going woke, when that wasn't the case at all even just 10 years ago.  

 

 

There were three Lesbians in the RTD era. An old couple in Gridlock and a woman who gets sucked out of a ship in Midnight. He clearly doesn't care much about giving gay women a voice in his stories. It's just the guys. Moffat was way better in making sure that both sides were represented. 

[iank]

I always get the impression RTD doesn't like women very much. His lovesick companions, his Chav stereotypes and someone else pointed out that the hot young chicks always seemed to be the first to die in his stories.
Methinks the guy has issues...

[Deleted]

The British TV industry has always been scummy and gross, full of scandals and cover-ups. You of course have Jimmy Savile most notably, but look around and you'll spot all sorts of other more minor cases. I remember jokes about Louis Walsh going around all the usual panel shows years before he was caught in the act fondling women's bums for example. As if they'd all already cottoned onto it. It's for this same reason that I can never respect someone like Ian Hislop who was clearly uncomfortably and knew more than he was telling during Savile's appearance on HIGNFY in which he joked that he had a caravan he raped women in. And that constant remark "feared in girls' schools across the country" UGH. Never trust a TV guy.

[burrunjor]

Jan 7, 2024 18:18:49 GMT @theyakemperor said:

The British TV industry has always been scummy and gross, full of scandals and cover-ups. You of course have Jimmy Savile most notably, but look around and you'll spot all sorts of other more minor cases. I remember jokes about Louis Walsh going around all the usual panel shows years before he was caught in the act fondling women's bums for example. As if they'd all already cottoned onto it. It's for this same reason that I can never respect someone like Ian Hislop who was clearly uncomfortably and knew more than he was telling during Savile's appearance on HIGNFY in which he joked that he had a caravan he raped women in. And that constant remark "feared in girls' schools across the country" UGH. Never trust a TV guy.

They ALL knew about Jimmy Savile and never let anyone tell you differently. 

[burrunjor]

[mott1]

One of the best LGBT characters in the Nu Who era was Journey Blue in 'Into The Dalek'. If they'd made her a companion and kept the more gritty style of that story the series could have gone in an early JNT/Davison direction, where the show was more serious and dark, and kept all the soap opera stuff in the background, but inevitably they didn't.

[Deleted]

Jan 7, 2024 19:56:02 GMT mott1 said:

One of the best LGBT characters in the Nu Who era was Journey Blue in 'Into The Dalek'. If they'd made her a companion and kept the more gritty style of that story the series could have gone in an early JNT/Davison direction, where the show was more serious and dark, and kept all the soap opera stuff in the background, but inevitably they didn't.

Ah man I hated that episode, but then again I hate the Davison era lol. An entire series of NuWho based on the early 80s JNT era would be my worst nightmare.

[iank]

I can't say I've ever regarded the Davison era as "dark" personally.
Though that may be down to the flood lighting...

[rushy]

I think it had a melancholy, grim tone in season 21, mainly down to Davison's performance and Saward's love of cruel irony.