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Post by Bernard Marx on Sept 10, 2023 12:40:02 GMT
Back in 2021, some of us predicted that Davies' return would result in an initial ratings success (likely accompanied by mainstream outlets writing gushing appraisals coupled with numerous caveats) before gradually dwindling into insignificance. Since 2021, the programme has inexorably engaged in desperate PR measures- all of which either placate audience nostalgia, or are tailor-made to superficially appeal to my generation's more socially progressive demographic:
"David Tennant is back! Catherine Tate is back! Murray Gold is back! Look! Here are some celebrity guest stars doing drag! Some more guest stars! The next Doctor will be played by someone with a pervasive celebrity social media presence, and he's appeared in a Netflix series popular with young adults! Look- more variations of the same photo ops! Look at how fantastic and brilliant it all is!".
The marketing strategy doesn't elicit any sense of wonder or intrigue. Just knee-jerk recognitions. This artificially generated excitement doesn't derive from the types of stories being told- or the talents behind the page and camera (barring the one who's already produced the programme)- but instead the cosmetics within those stories and how it looks. Within this cynicism lies an obvious paradox: This next era is trying to be "new" and "trendy", yet also desperate to evoke tired nostalgia.
Gatwa recently 'speaking out' only explicates this: The desire to not "tell the same stories" looks hugely contradictory amidst "fronting" a programme written and produced by an established BBC Oxbridge darling who spearheaded Doctor Who 18 years ago. The people whose work is being "seen" (to coin his turn of phrase) are those who dominated well over a decade ago. Not new talents or voices. Gatwa may be a "front" (or marketing strategy), but nothing has changed behind the scenes.
When Davies first started, he intended to "modernise" the programme. As crass as this modernisation was, it was a clear-cut objective. Now, 18 years later, he seemingly intends to "modernise" and recapture his own supposed past glories, having his cake and eating it too. Given that Davies' method of "modernising" dates back almost two decades, this contradiction feels even more feeble. Bringing back the old guard to "refresh" the programme feels incredibly self-defeating. If Hinchcliffe suddenly returned after Williams' departure, the programme would have simply tried recreating "the same stories". Writers like Steve Gallagher- a new talent inspired by Cocteau's La Belle et la Bête (1946) and Orphée (1950) instead of imperative trends- would never have penned Warrior's Gate. Likewise, had Lambert returned after Troughton's departure, Don Houghton wouldn't have penned Inferno.
This "new" era is riding on the goodwill of an era which ended over a decade ago. Any pretence of "modernisation" feels weak. As such, this era might be a ratings success amidst the anniversary specials, but beyond the series' PR exercises, I can't see it having much steam afterwards. What do you guys think?
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Post by rushy on Sept 10, 2023 12:43:55 GMT
What is objectively true is that a lot of the audience who left over the years is coming back for the sake of having Tennant and RTD back. Whether RTD can keep them around for Ncuti depends entirely on the quality of the specials.
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Post by burrunjor on Sept 10, 2023 16:28:37 GMT
I honestly don't know. I would have thought 100 percent a hit back last year, but Michael Keaton's return in Batman being a huge turkey honestly has made me think that even Tennant won't necessarily do that well. I think the ship for nostalgia sailed with No Way Home.
Also I think that any success it has is going to mired in controversy thanks to the culture war bullshit. Now for the record I'm fed up with the anti SJWs now who have become Anita Sarkeesian mark 2. Still RTD has thrown his lot in with the culture wars crap, which will surely bring a huge backlash down on its head too. Made worse by the fact that next year is Donald Trump running again. Honestly the whole thing could blow up in his face.
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Post by rushy on Sept 10, 2023 16:34:10 GMT
Michael Keaton's return being a turkey was obviously because he was shoehorned into a completely unrelated movie. If they'd just made a legacy sequel to the Burtonverse, it would've done fine.
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Post by Brian MK.II on Sept 10, 2023 20:09:00 GMT
Mate, I think you answered your question with ''tired damp squib''.
Anyways, on a related note. I saw a promotional photo earlier of Tennant peering out of the TARDIS door paralleled with a shot of him in 2005 doing the same thing and surprisingly, a load of people were calling this out as a clear attempt to drum up nostalgia and this seems to be a prevailing opinion with a load of fans.
So chances are RTD2 won't be the second coming that a large chunk of fandom are painting it to be and if even if the specials are moderately popular, whether Series 14 can hold audiences is questionable.
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Post by iank on Sept 10, 2023 21:08:32 GMT
I think it will fail, honestly. I'm sure the 60th will be a moderate success riding on nostalgia - though I doubt the ratings will be that spectacular - but if RTD cannot - and from the casting alone it seems he can't - keep his own personal ideology and rather warped worldview out of what is supposed to be a family show, I can see Ncuti going down like a cup of cold sick. Likewise if Ncuti is incapable of giving any performance other than "camp gay best friend" (which he even played Romeo as in that Shakespeare thing), I don't see him replicating Tennant's success in the 2000s.
I may be wrong. Davies has always been good at playing to the lowest common denominator imaginable, but at the same time he is nearly 20 years older than he was in the 2000s. I'm considerably younger than him, and I'm completely out of touch with the yoof of today. A man who spends his entire life in a shallow showbiz bubble surrounded by yes men with a very bizarre lifestyle he regards as normality may not be the man for the job this time around...
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Post by RobFilth on Sept 10, 2023 21:20:52 GMT
I think it'll do better than Jodie, but I very much doubt RTD is going to hit anywhere near the peaks he enjoyed first time around. The franchise is tired and stale due to it employing the same bloody template since 2005 and a series of "RTD's Greatest Hits" are going to little to address that problem and make it feel fresh again.
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Post by Bernard Marx on Sept 10, 2023 21:51:28 GMT
I think it'll do better than Jodie, but I very much doubt RTD is going to hit anywhere near the peaks he enjoyed first time around. The Tennant Anniversary specials will undoubtedly outperform Jodie critically and commercially, although the bar for this is incredibly low. I can see them ushering some extra goodwill and temporary enthusiasm, but I can't see it lasting because- as stated earlier- its foundations for anticipation lie in glib nostalgia rather than the writing or ideas on display. Once this rush of nostalgia evaporates, what's left? Once Gatwa steps in, I can see the audience declining. The issue with this era is that it's clearly being marketed with sensationalised guest casting recognition in mind (if JNT cast Ken Dodd in every other story, I can see it looking a little like this), and this can only excite people to a certain extent. I'm not convinced Gatwa will be playing anything other than a caricature of himself (or his other roles- are they interchangeable?). When Davies started on NuWho, he was "modernising" an IP which had been off TV for over a decade (barring the TV Movie). As such, it felt fresh relative to now, regardless of its apparent shortcomings. Moffat maintained a modicum of goodwill when he started by altering the tone somewhat (albeit not dramatically) and casting a lead actor refreshingly more professorial than Tennant, although lost this goodwill by repeating himself and becoming increasingly self-absorbed year after year. Chibnall was a half-arsed synthesis of both of them and failed spectacularly. What is Davies actually offering which could be construed as "fresh" or new? He's produced it before for five years, he subsequently flopped when he went to America with Torchwood: Miracle Day, and his recent dramas- although popular with some of the press- haven't been raging successes (particularly Years and Years). NuWho itself is old hat. It's been on TV for almost two decades. Maybe I'm wrong, but despite the positive PR, the programme still feels like it's on life support. Given that it can't seem to escape Davies' shadow, what is the series supposed to do if it fails in the long-term? |
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Post by Bernard Marx on Sept 11, 2023 8:41:40 GMT
Mate, I think you answered your question with ''tired damp squib''. I agree.  Anyways, on a related note. I saw a promotional photo earlier of Tennant peering out of the TARDIS door paralleled with a shot of him in 2005 doing the same thing and surprisingly, a load of people were calling this out as a clear attempt to drum up nostalgia and this seems to be a prevailing opinion with a load of fans. I'm not surprised. What is there to get excited about? "Look! We've travelled back to the 2000s! It looks like something you recognise!". OK, but why should I care? Why is this parallel relevant? Isn't it just a tacit admission that playing to people's memories and nostalgia (of which I ought to have- given that I was a kid when this era aired- but don't) is a superior resort to revealing anything interesting or inspiring? And does this not imply a paucity of new ideas? Likewise, when your primary marketing trump card for the anniversary episodes involves a strong nostalgic sugar-rush, it looks more likely that- against Gatwa's wishes- telling the "same stories" may become the desired Modus Operandi amongst those fans who do champion the specials. As such, when they won't be literally getting the "same stories" after Tennant and Tate leave again, will they really be enthused to stick around? I'm also under the increasing suspicion that these specials will have nothing to do with Doctor Who's overarching history (barring the Star Beast and Toymaker connection) and will only be a celebration of Tennant's era... |
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Post by cyberhat on Sept 12, 2023 19:53:14 GMT
The problem with the revival is it's initially based on the biggest lie that Nu Poo ever got away with. That David Tennant gave a brilliant performance as The Doctor, every bit the equal of Tom Baker. Tennant was terrible, really really, cringey bad at it. Amateur hour gurning, panto, try-hard with that awful fake accent of his. At least Jodie sounded like that. If Mr Pastry had got the part in 74 he would have performed it like David Tennant.
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Post by mott1 on Nov 19, 2023 18:01:59 GMT
The problem with the revival is it's initially based on the biggest lie that Nu Poo ever got away with. That David Tennant gave a brilliant performance as The Doctor, every bit the equal of Tom Baker. Tennant was terrible, really really, cringey bad at it. Amateur hour gurning, panto, try-hard with that awful fake accent of his. At least Jodie sounded like that. If Mr Pastry had got the part in 74 he would have performed it like David Tennant. That's right. I went back to see some old Tenc*nt performances a little while back (I think the main one I saw was that The Idiots Lantern, an appropriate name!) and the thing that stands out is not just how bad the acting is generally but that Spunk Hair is the worst of the lot - actually dragging everyone else down in scenes. I've seen him in lots of stuff and he's a hugely overrated actor, from phoning it in during Broadchurch to unmemorably playing 'sleazy politicians' to hamming it up in Harry Potter to the point they cut most of his stuff out. He was actually well-cast in Good Omens, but it was little more than RTD-style fantasy and apparently the 2nd series has gone downhill, Moffat Who-style. It seems Fat Head is not even confident the public will take to Nc*nti as there's no good reason Tennant needs to come back but to ease the viewers in gently! |
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Post by medicusitic on Nov 20, 2023 22:36:27 GMT
I think it will fail, honestly. I'm sure the 60th will be a moderate success riding on nostalgia - though I doubt the ratings will be that spectacular - but if RTD cannot - and from the casting alone it seems he can't - keep his own personal ideology and rather warped worldview out of what is supposed to be a family show, I can see Ncuti going down like a cup of cold sick. Likewise if Ncuti is incapable of giving any performance other than "camp gay best friend" (which he even played Romeo as in that Shakespeare thing), I don't see him replicating Tennant's success in the 2000s. I may be wrong. Davies has always been good at playing to the lowest common denominator imaginable, but at the same time he is nearly 20 years older than he was in the 2000s. I'm considerably younger than him, and I'm completely out of touch with the yoof of today. A man who spends his entire life in a shallow showbiz bubble surrounded by yes men with a very bizarre lifestyle he regards as normality may not be the man for the job this time around... I agree the success of the 2005 show was due to people wanting a continuation of the classic series and only could have happened in that era. People forget how bad Series 1-4 were because many people weren't using the internet to discuss it, youtube and google video were in their infancy. The Ending of Series 1 would be relentlessly mocked today for being stupid and a deus ex machina. Many people who are glad for the return of RTD were kids when the show was revived and mainly like it due to nostalgia (an accusation that is often said to Classic fans, but is false). Once they see the flaws his new series many will begin to become critical of the RTD 1.0. Moffat and Chinball were both criticized online and RTD will be no different. He was lucky in his first run to come at a time were fans were lucky to have the show back and the general audience wasn't involved in online communities centred around the show. RTD version of the show was simply cringe. People can make fun of the costumes and some poor performances of one of villains in the classic show, but every character RTD ever wrote was just cringe. His politics and changes to the lore are already losing him the classic fans (if he had any left) and his specials will be a bunch of egotistical self referential set pieces. The general audience is going to wonder why the main character yells out stupid catchphrases like "Alloyz" for no reason. Or why stories just end with the doctor mashing buttons that magically kill all the enemies (Bad Wolf, Doomsday, and Journey's End).
The only reason RTD is liked is because shills like Warbo Holmes on youtube and his audience have to constantly tell us that bad episodes are good and that the classic series does not exist. But we are going to see a portion of the audience are going to start critiquing Russel's new era.
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Post by ClockworkOcean on Nov 21, 2023 0:07:21 GMT
Many people who are glad for the return of RTD were kids when the show was revived and mainly like it due to nostalgia (an accusation that is often said to Classic fans, but is false). Once they see the flaws his new series many will begin to become critical of the RTD 1.0. I think you're right, and that this will ultimately be the one silver lining of the disaster that's about to unfold. Much of the goodwill RTD has continued to enjoy up until very recently came from the fact that he was the only NuWho showrunner not directly complicit in the post-2013 ideological hijacking of the show. His lack of involvement in the trainwreck that was 2014-2022 allowed some fans to hold onto hope that he was secretly on their side, or that he'd at least be commercially savvy enough to attempt some damage control and tone down the divisive political posturing. Now that it seems he's about to embark on a campaign of spiteful vandalism that will end up making Chibnall's look mild by comparison, the protective bubble of nostalgia that's rendered him immune to criticism for so long is starting to burst. Posts declaring that Doctor Who died in 1989 or 1996 have been becoming gradually more commonplace on mainstream platforms such as YouTube and Reddit for a while now, and this is sure to increase as the 18-year-old roots of NuWho's more recent problems become harder to ignore. |
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Post by zarius on Nov 21, 2023 6:39:53 GMT
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Post by iank on Nov 21, 2023 7:33:21 GMT
I hope it flops like Davies at a girls wrestling match.
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