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Post by Bernard Marx on Apr 4, 2021 11:04:49 GMT
Imagine Jodie's Doctor wielding a pistol! Oh, the uproar. To be honest, it’s entirely impossible to envision Whittaker’s Doctor in a story like The Seeds of Doom, where the character happened to be more active and violent. She’s too insipid for it, and lacking in any intimidatory or authoritative edge. Imagine the current era doing a story like Resurrection, as discussed at length previously. It’s completely unfathomable. That said, this isn’t exclusive to her. NuWho has sadly been very light on any degree of grittiness from day one. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2021 11:05:30 GMT
Yes, I love Bannermen. Ray is ridiculously cute and I love the 50s setting and music. Gavrok is a worthy villain and as you said McCoy begins to come into his own. I really enjoy his confrontation with Gavrok at the end of part two. It moves along at a decent speed and the Welsh filming locations look great on screen. I don't know why so many people regard it as one of the worst stories? I can understand the first two stories of the season, but Bannermen is just lovely. I've actually seen its reputation improve a lot recently. No one is ever going to regard it as a classic I'm afraid LOL. It is a silly, frothy adventure, but it is enjoyable and totally inoffensive at least. I do wish that Ace had met Ray. They would have been such a cute couple. Though that said her and the Chinese babe were really, really cute together too. "No one is ever going to regard it as a classic" Well, there's one person that does. Bet you can't guess who  Yeah, I wish Ace had met Ray too. They could have shagged on the Vincent. |
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Post by burrunjor on Apr 4, 2021 11:31:33 GMT
It's unfair to blame JNT for anything really. The guy’s an easy scapegoat, sadly, often at the dispensing of proper analysis. It’s lazy to pin the blame of the cancellation on him. His era produced plenty of experimental outings that provided Doctor Who with new narrative outlets. The idea that the series was starved of creativity during his era is absolute bollocks. Stories like Full Circle, Warriors’ Gate, Kinda, Snakedance, Enlightenment, Caves, Revelation, Remembrance, Greatest Show, Fenric etc are all uniquely defined and aspire to new experimental areas. Satire on the political system, reality TV and consumer culture (the season 22 stories) commentary on existentialism and Buddhism (the Mara stories), concepts of Entropy as explored through the influence of Cocteau and Kubrick’s films (Season 18 and Warriors’ Gate, etc). There’s so much going on there. It’s a revelation when compared to the vapid bollocks we receive as Doctor Who now. Again I hate to say it as it is my white whale, but thank the arsehole comedians for JNT's poor reputation. The way they attacked his era of the show was vicious kicking something when it was down. Also the length the went after it too. That f*cking Room 101 episode was in 2002. That's 13 years after DW finished ffs. Al of that collectively traumatised DW fandom to the point where they will do anything to avoid ending up like that again, they will go along with any fad that they think will make it popular, sell out any part of the shows history etc. Sadly that also means they will highlight any mistake JNT made as being an example of what caused the show to finish, rather than look at it in a more objective. Hence the complete hypocrisy in the received wisdom of places like GB. Stunt casting? When JNT did it, it was what killed the show. (Even though he always cast his celebs in proper roles.) RTD meanwhile? He had to do that to stop the comedians from laughing at us. (Even though he cast these celebs as themselves.) Silly monsters? When JNT did it, it made the show such a laughing stock and a pitiful joke. When RTD did it with the Adipose and burping wheely bins? Oh stop being such a saddo taking this seriously. It's supposed to be silly. Of course this is not to say that everything JNT did was great and that he didn't make mistakes, and that all of his critics are just self loathers. Sadly however his actual mistakes are often overlooked in the face of the over the top hyperbole. JNT was guilty of the following things. He was too self indulgent in Colin's time. The success of the Davison era, coupled with Saward being two faced, IE bitching about him behind his back, but never saying anything to his face caused JNT to see DW as his show above all else. DW should always be a team effort and sadly JNT for all intents and purposes became the showrunner in Colin's time, hence things like that ghastly coat that only he wanted and too many past references like the Two Doctors. He also was guilty of provoking the moral guardians too much at the shows expense. Now fair enough he went after both the left and the right. He stuck in excessive levels of violence to piss off Mary Whitehouse, and he made the female companions overly sexualized and wimpy and useless in Colin's time to wind up the annoying feminists who had accused the show of being too sexist. Again I'm all for pissing off moral guardians, but the way he did it just got the show into trouble. To start with making the female characters wimpy and sexy to annoy feminists is a very stupid thing to do, as you just end up proving their point! It would be better to have done a companion like Ace to prove them wrong. Also whilst I'm not saying you should pander to Mary Whitehouse who was the SJWs of her day, he should have known the bitch had connections and power at the Beeb and maybe been a bit more careful about it. As it was he ended up having to pander to her in season 24 (hence its lighter and sillier tone) anyway because he'd pissed her off too much. Also I think JNT was foolish in not using the original writers as often. Granted this is somewhat overexaggerated. For instance he offered to let an original writer return at least once a year during most of his tenure. Terrance Dicks his first year, Terrance Dicks and Bob Holmes the 20th anniversary, Terry Nation (who declined) and Holmes for Davison's third season, Holmes for Colin's first and twice in the planned season 23 that got canned. He also asked Terry Nation back for both Revelation and Remembrance. Still ultimately he failed to find a strong group of regular writers and as a result more of the 80s stories were written by one offs who didn't like the show very much. Finally JNT also failed to understand the limits of DW's budget. His era at least in Davison's time has the worst special effects of almost any era of the show, including even William Hartnell's time! That's because JNT would do stupid things like throw in giant monsters that the budget couldn't possibly support such as the Mara and the Myrka, sets that looked cheap etc. Whilst there are a few notoriously bad effects in earlier stories like the Wirren and the Dinosaurs, generally speaking I think previous producers knew when they couldn't do something and worked around it. JNT however it seemed tried to make the show compete with Star Wars and just exposed its cheap production values more. |
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Post by burrunjor on Apr 4, 2021 11:33:38 GMT
I've actually seen its reputation improve a lot recently. No one is ever going to regard it as a classic I'm afraid LOL. It is a silly, frothy adventure, but it is enjoyable and totally inoffensive at least. I do wish that Ace had met Ray. They would have been such a cute couple. Though that said her and the Chinese babe were really, really cute together too. "No one is ever going to regard it as a classic" Well, there's one person that does. Bet you can't guess who Yeah, I wish Ace had met Ray too. They could have shagged on the Vincent. They'd have been perfect together. The tomboy and the nerd. Always a good combo. The tomboy helps the nerd feel more comfortable and confident, whilst the nerd sees the tomboy's sensitive side. I'd have loved to have seen them take on Daleks together. Ray could have driven by them in her bike, whilst Ace smacked their heads off with her bat. |
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Post by burrunjor on Apr 4, 2021 11:43:00 GMT
Imagine Jodie's Doctor wielding a pistol! Oh, the uproar. To be honest, it’s entirely impossible to envision Whittaker’s Doctor in a story like The Seeds of Doom, where the character happened to be more active and violent. She’s too insipid for it, and lacking in any intimidatory or authoritative edge. Imagine the current era doing a story like Resurrection, as discussed at length previously. It’s completely unfathomable. That said, this isn’t exclusive to her. NuWho has sadly been very light on any degree of grittiness from day one. Matt's Doctor was more willing to kill and hit people. He got into trouble with that though from the Claudia Boleyn types. In my alternate sequel series I may have gone too much the other way in having the Doctor hit and shoot bad guys LOL. I've never seen the Doctor as a pacifist hero however. To me he is the epitome of a British hero. British heroes like Holmes, Bond, Avon etc are always more willing to kill than American heroes like Superman and Spider-Man. I guess it comes from our stiff upper lip culture LOL. We look at things in a practical way where if there is a bad guy coming at you with a knife, shoot him, stab him, throw him off a cliff if you have too and don't feel bad as he would have killed you, unlike an American hero who wouldn't do it, even if it meant their own death or cry and have a breakdown if they did. I'm not saying that makes British heroes better btw. You need both, but that is a definite trait of ours. Obviously you get different degrees. Avon and James Bond will kill any character, whilst the Doctor does at least have some kind of moral code, IE only in self defense. Still the Doctor is more of a cynical, dry and yes ruthless character above all else so I think having him kill now and again is essential to his character. |
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Post by iank on Apr 4, 2021 20:48:35 GMT
Still ultimately he failed to find a strong group of regular writers and as a result more of the 80s stories were written by one offs who didn't like the show very much. Unless I'm insane, I'm fairly sure finding writers was the script editor's job. Saward is on record as saying he found finding new writers unconscionably difficult, yet Cartmel didn't seem to have any trouble... |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2021 9:48:11 GMT
Cartmel assembled a group of very young, enthusiastic writers back in the day. He knew where to look.
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Post by burrunjor on Apr 5, 2021 10:19:37 GMT
Still ultimately he failed to find a strong group of regular writers and as a result more of the 80s stories were written by one offs who didn't like the show very much. Unless I'm insane, I'm fairly sure finding writers was the script editor's job. Saward is on record as saying he found finding new writers unconscionably difficult, yet Cartmel didn't seem to have any trouble... Saward I think was definitely the weakest long term script editor for the classic era. He was a good writer but lazy and extremely unprofessional when it came to being a script editor. Still some responsibility has to fall on JNT, as the producer and script editor often worked together. Barry Letts and Terrance Dicks always worked together, as would JNT and Cartmel, but Saward and JNT almost never did. Again a large part of that is Saward's fault again as he was two faced and never let JNT know he didn't like this or that, but JNT still didn't run as tight a ship in the Davison era. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2021 10:23:09 GMT
Unless I'm insane, I'm fairly sure finding writers was the script editor's job. Saward is on record as saying he found finding new writers unconscionably difficult, yet Cartmel didn't seem to have any trouble... Saward I think was definitely the weakest long term script editor for the classic era. He was a good writer but lazy and extremely unprofessional when it came to being a script editor. Still some responsibility has to fall on JNT, as the producer and script editor often worked together. Barry Letts and Terrance Dicks always worked together, as would JNT and Cartmel, but Saward and JNT almost never did. Again a large part of that is Saward's fault again as he was two faced and never let JNT know he didn't like this or that, but JNT still didn't run as tight a ship in the Davison era. "Some responsibility has to fall on JNT" You don't know what you're talking about, bruv. JNT was BOSS. He was the GOAT, blud. You know nothin' about nobody. |
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Post by RobFilth on Apr 5, 2021 10:31:09 GMT
I personally preferred Seaward to Cartmel, Adams or Bidmead as Script Editor. Flawed although they both may be in some regards Season 21 and 22 are two of the best from the 80's.
Saward made sure at least one or two stories per season got up to a Hinchcliffe classic type standard, even if there were a few rotten apples in there.
At least he jettisoned a lot of the overly waffley Bidmead snoozathons which made watching paint dry look an almost dynamic experience by comparison.
The reason he didn't communicate very well with JNT was because he knew JNT was bound to louse things up with camp panto casting or embarrassing adult/child type ambiguities.
I think Cartmel was terrible by comparison, the worst one out of all the 80s script editors.
He shuffled all the pages into a random order and then used to burn the odd page to "bring back the mystery" - well he did that alright, because even to this day I still haven't a clue what on earth is going on with a great deal of his stories, what the character motivations are or where the Doctor suddenly acquire's these never mentioned before God-like powers from.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2021 10:32:45 GMT
I personally preferred Seaward to Cartmel, Adams or Bidmead as Script Editor. Flawed although they both may be in some regards Season 21 and 22 are two of the best from the 80's. Saward made sure at least one or two stories per season got up to a Hinchcliffe classic type standard, even if there were a few rotten apples in there. At least he jettisoned a lot of the overly waffley Bidmead snoozathons which made watching paint dry look an almost dynamic experience by comparison. The reason he didn't communicate very well with JNT was because he knew JNT was bound to louse things up with camp panto casting or embarrassing adult/child type ambiguities. I think Cartmel was terrible by comparison, the worst one out of all the 80s script editors. He shuffled all the pages into a random order and then used to burn the odd page to "bring back the mystery" - well he did that alright, because even to this day I still haven't a clue what on earth is going on with a great deal of his stories, what the character motivations are or where the Doctor suddenly acquire's these never mentioned before God-like powers. Anthony Root is still the best script editor. What an era! |
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Post by RobFilth on Apr 5, 2021 10:36:39 GMT
Anthony Root is still the best script editor. What an era! Anthony Root!  You are a card Pepsi! I hate to be boring, but Dicks and Holmes were undoubtedly the best two. |
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Post by mott1 on Apr 5, 2021 10:43:33 GMT
I personally preferred Seaward to Cartmel, Adams or Bidmead as Script Editor. Flawed although they both may be in some regards Season 21 and 22 are two of the best from the 80's. Saward made sure at least one or two stories per season got up to a Hinchcliffe classic type standard, even if there were a few rotten apples in there. At least he jettisoned a lot of the overly waffley Bidmead snoozathons which made watching paint dry look an almost dynamic experience by comparison. The reason he didn't communicate very well with JNT was because he knew JNT was bound to louse things up with camp panto casting or embarrassing adult/child type ambiguities. I think Cartmel was terrible by comparison, the worst one out of all the 80s script editors. He shuffled all the pages into a random order and then used to burn the odd page to "bring back the mystery" - well he did that alright, because even to this day I still haven't a clue what on earth is going on with a great deal of his stories, what the character motivations are or where the Doctor suddenly acquire's these never mentioned before God-like powers from. Surely you didn't find Ghost Light confusing!? It's like the opposite of Warriors Gate, where the Doctor is passive in a place he doesn't really understand. In Ghost Light he seems to understand everything bonkers that's going on (right down to the human remains in the soup) without us understanding why, and of course there are other examples like the 'Gods of Rrrrrragnarrrrok'. Oddly I found them the most interesting stories at the time as they took the show in a new direction... |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2021 11:56:37 GMT
Ghost Light is only confusing if you spend most of it staring into space or looking at naughty images on your phone while it's on. If you actually sit up close to your television, scribble notes on a second hand notepad and switch the informative text feature on you should be able to work out what's going on.
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Post by RobFilth on Apr 5, 2021 12:01:48 GMT
Ghost Light is only confusing if you spend most of it staring into space or looking at naughty images on your phone while it's on. If you actually sit up close to your television, scribble notes on a second hand notepad and switch the informative text feature on you should be able to work out what's going on. ...AND read the production notes, AND read the Target novelization, AND listen to the production commentaries AND read half a dozen interpretations given in DWM, AND research into the missing scenes... ...Actually, even after all that lot, I STILL don't understand the character motivations or certain plot points. |
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