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Post by Bernard Marx on Apr 4, 2021 10:00:49 GMT
I remember showing it to a friend who was expecting something like the original Trek, IE a cheesy light hearted romp You're doing Star Trek a HUGE disservice there... Incidentally, regarding the production of Warriors, it's unfair to lay all the blame at the feet of JNT and the production team. As has been discussed before, due to the announcement of the upcoming general election there was a clamour for studio space and Warriors was rushed into production, losing two weeks in the process. No-one was happy with this and i think that's hugely mitigating as Doctor Who was always starved of money and resources at the best of times. Yep, that bloody election where Thatcher got 398 seats and won the biggest post-war Tory majority ever (making the current majority seem modest in comparison) was the one that completely buggered the story up. What is it with Thatcherism ruining the show? Michael Grade was a devout fan of hers too. Given season 22’s added propensity for political satire, it wouldn’t surprise me if it strongly factored into his antipathy of the series at that stage. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2021 10:05:07 GMT
IanK is right, it's not good. It's downright bloody brilliant!  It really is. The score, the direction, the characters... everything about it is absolute gold. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2021 10:08:21 GMT
I remember showing it to a friend who was expecting something like the original Trek, IE a cheesy light hearted romp You're doing Star Trek a HUGE disservice there... Incidentally, regarding the production of Warriors, it's unfair to lay all the blame at the feet of JNT and the production team. As has been discussed before, due to the announcement of the upcoming general election there was a clamour for studio space and Warriors was rushed into production, losing two weeks in the process. No-one was happy with this and i think that's hugely mitigating as Doctor Who was always starved of money and resources at the best of times. It's unfair to blame JNT for anything really. |
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Post by UncleDeadly on Apr 4, 2021 10:09:35 GMT
What is it with Thatcherism ruining the show? Michael Grade was a devout fan of hers too. Given season 22’s added propensity for political satire, it wouldn’t surprise me if it strongly factored into his antipathy of the series at that stage. Don't be ridiculous, Bernard. I mean why would a staunchly right-wing government have a problem with a television series produced by left-leaning creatives, given to subversive satire, allegorical critique of contemporary society and featuring a protagonist that represents the triumph of the free-thinker over totalitarianism? Nah, Grade was right; it's just because it was rubbish... |
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Post by Bernard Marx on Apr 4, 2021 10:10:31 GMT
IanK is right, it's not good. It's downright bloody brilliant! It really is. The score, the direction, the characters... everything about it is absolute gold. Upon re-watching it, I’ve definitely warmed to it a hell of a lot more. It’s gritty as all hell and very briskly directed, and as stated above, there are sequences in it which amalgamate the grit of 80s action cinema with an atmosphere which could almost be construed as akin to a horror film. Lytton and Davros are both great in it too. There are a few scripting errors, as I’ve explored previously, and some of the death scenes are better acted than others, but it’s a rather slick story all told, and relentlessly bleak. |
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Post by Bernard Marx on Apr 4, 2021 10:12:24 GMT
What is it with Thatcherism ruining the show? Michael Grade was a devout fan of hers too. Given season 22’s added propensity for political satire, it wouldn’t surprise me if it strongly factored into his antipathy of the series at that stage. Don't be ridiculous, Bernard. I mean why would a staunchly right-wing government have a problem with a television series produced by left-leaning creatives, given to subversive satire, allegorical critique of contemporary society and featuring a protagonist that represents the triumph of the free-thinker over totalitarianism? Nah, Grade was right; it's just because it was rubbish... I can imagine Grade and his acolytes absolutely hating Varos, Two Doctors and Revelation. Too pertinent, relevant and satirical for their tastes. |
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Post by Bernard Marx on Apr 4, 2021 10:17:22 GMT
You're doing Star Trek a HUGE disservice there... Incidentally, regarding the production of Warriors, it's unfair to lay all the blame at the feet of JNT and the production team. As has been discussed before, due to the announcement of the upcoming general election there was a clamour for studio space and Warriors was rushed into production, losing two weeks in the process. No-one was happy with this and i think that's hugely mitigating as Doctor Who was always starved of money and resources at the best of times. It's unfair to blame JNT for anything really. The guy’s an easy scapegoat, sadly, often at the dispensing of proper analysis. It’s lazy to pin the blame of the cancellation on him. His era produced plenty of experimental outings that provided Doctor Who with new narrative outlets. The idea that the series was starved of creativity during his era is absolute bollocks. Stories like Full Circle, Warriors’ Gate, Kinda, Snakedance, Enlightenment, Caves, Revelation, Remembrance, Greatest Show, Fenric etc are all uniquely defined and aspire to new experimental areas. Satire on the political system, reality TV and consumer culture (the season 22 stories) commentary on existentialism and Buddhism (the Mara stories), concepts of Entropy as explored through the influence of Cocteau and Kubrick’s films (Season 18 and Warriors’ Gate, etc). There’s so much going on there. It’s a revelation when compared to the vapid bollocks we receive as Doctor Who now. |
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Post by UncleDeadly on Apr 4, 2021 10:18:36 GMT
I can imagine Grade and his acolytes absolutely hating Varos, Two Doctors and Revelation. Too pertinent, relevant and satirical for their tastes. Oh yeah, they're all thoroughly shot through with "Wrongthink". Can't have that sort of thing at the BBC... |
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Post by Bernard Marx on Apr 4, 2021 10:22:30 GMT
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Post by Bernard Marx on Apr 4, 2021 10:24:13 GMT
And a fan of the Christmas Specials too! 😂 |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2021 10:53:16 GMT
I don't even own all of the McCoy stories. I only have my absolute favourites from the era. Same with Davison. I just can't be bothered to collect them all because most of them will be sitting on the shelf, untouched anyway. I do own Warriors on DVD as I was able to get it as a single on Ebay so I didn't have to buy the Beneath the Surface set. My family were such big DW fans that collecting them on DVD is like second nature to me now LOL. I have almost all of True Who and a big chunk of New Who too on DVD. Delta and the Bannermen is actually quite fun. It's not a classic, and very twee, but for what it's worth it is a great laugh. The biker girl is quite cute and likable and McCoy seems more comfortable at that point. It's a step up from Time and the Rani, and if it came before Paradise Towers a step up from that too. Yes, I love Bannermen. Ray is ridiculously cute and I love the 50s setting and music. Gavrok is a worthy villain and as you said McCoy begins to come into his own. I really enjoy his confrontation with Gavrok at the end of part two. It moves along at a decent speed and the Welsh filming locations look great on screen. I don't know why so many people regard it as one of the worst stories? I can understand the first two stories of the season, but Bannermen is just lovely. |
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Post by burrunjor on Apr 4, 2021 10:58:57 GMT
I remember showing it to a friend who was expecting something like the original Trek, IE a cheesy light hearted romp You're doing Star Trek a HUGE disservice there... Incidentally, regarding the production of Warriors, it's unfair to lay all the blame at the feet of JNT and the production team. As has been discussed before, due to the announcement of the upcoming general election there was a clamour for studio space and Warriors was rushed into production, losing two weeks in the process. No-one was happy with this and i think that's hugely mitigating as Doctor Who was always starved of money and resources at the best of times. Obvs I think original Trek is a classic series, the best episodes and stories of which can easily hold their own with True Who like Space Seed, Balance of Terror etc. However original Trek was never a horror series. Not that that makes it worse than Who in any way, but DW came to be more about being scary and unpredictable, whilst Trek overall was more about having adventures and would sometimes throw a deeper meaning behind them. There are some episodes of Trek that are dark and have excessive levels of violence sure, like the one with the evil Kirk. Still overall I think Trek ironically managed to be more family friendly at times than certain periods of Who. Take for instance both series episodes about the ancient Gods being inspired by Aliens, Who Mourns For Adonis and Pyramids of Mars. Both classics, but the Trek one can easily be watched by children. They won't get the deeper meaning behind it, but they can enjoy the cheesy fun of Apollo in space. Pyramids of Mars meanwhile? It would probably be too frightening for very young kids, with the guys being burned alive slowly, a man being made to kill his brother etc. My friend meanwhile I think was expecting something like Trek, IE a fun family friendly adventure show and was quite shocked to see helpless old men be gunned down in the streets, guys faces melting off, the Doctor being tortured and screaming, guys killing themselves, LOL. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2021 11:00:25 GMT
Imagine Jodie's Doctor wielding a pistol! Oh, the uproar.
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Post by burrunjor on Apr 4, 2021 11:02:44 GMT
My family were such big DW fans that collecting them on DVD is like second nature to me now LOL. I have almost all of True Who and a big chunk of New Who too on DVD. Delta and the Bannermen is actually quite fun. It's not a classic, and very twee, but for what it's worth it is a great laugh. The biker girl is quite cute and likable and McCoy seems more comfortable at that point. It's a step up from Time and the Rani, and if it came before Paradise Towers a step up from that too. Yes, I love Bannermen. Ray is ridiculously cute and I love the 50s setting and music. Gavrok is a worthy villain and as you said McCoy begins to come into his own. I really enjoy his confrontation with Gavrok at the end of part two. It moves along at a decent speed and the Welsh filming locations look great on screen. I don't know why so many people regard it as one of the worst stories? I can understand the first two stories of the season, but Bannermen is just lovely. I've actually seen its reputation improve a lot recently. No one is ever going to regard it as a classic I'm afraid LOL. It is a silly, frothy adventure, but it is enjoyable and totally inoffensive at least. I do wish that Ace had met Ray. They would have been such a cute couple. Though that said her and the Chinese babe were really, really cute together too. |
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Post by burrunjor on Apr 4, 2021 11:04:00 GMT
Imagine Jodie's Doctor wielding a pistol! Oh, the uproar. Jodie's Doctor won't shoot a man eating Spider because she thinks that they deserve respect. They've chopped his balls off in more ways than one. Makes sense why Mr TARDIS can relate to the Doctor now though. |
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