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Post by burrunjor on May 16, 2024 10:11:17 GMT
All about how wonderful it is making it queer.
Really it's not a joke.
2014, Missy shows up. First example of an icon of the show being sacrificed to shallow neo liberalism. Show loses 2 million viewers the year after she shows up. We can excuse them doubling down in 2015 as the fandom elites and spineless fans who went along with it said "Oh MY GOD BEST MASTER EVAH." However it was obvious the silent majority felt differently as 2015 that started with her, started as a flop when 2014 didn't. (Typically they blamed Clara and Capaldi even though 2014 didn't start out as a flop and had both of them.)
With this in mind, much like Monica with her cookies they think "let's do more of that" in 2017 with Missy as a regular and anti Trump remarks and its viewers go down to 2 million. Then they STILL think let's do more of that and give us Jodie. Okay brief spurt out of curiosity, but within a year viewers are back down to crisis levels and go down every year until they eclipse Capaldi. Then when given a fresh start they do the same thing again to a greater extent and now when their premier is getting the lowest viewers, they still push at it from this angle.
Really pigeons do learn faster than them.
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Post by henshin on May 16, 2024 10:18:22 GMT
It's like meeting with your favourite teacher from 20 years years who inspired you, provided warmth and encouragement, while contributing to your overall development.
Then they return as a crack addict
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Post by Cherry Pepsi Maxil on May 16, 2024 10:20:00 GMT
85 likes, 141 dislikes
They're no longer swallowing it, Russell.
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Post by Bernard Marx on May 16, 2024 10:23:22 GMT
"The Doctor has a very hard time defeating him...defeating them".
Feel that sincerity oosing out...
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Post by burrunjor on May 16, 2024 10:29:04 GMT
It's like meeting with your favourite teacher from 20 years years who inspired you, provided warmth and encouragement, while contributing to your overall development. Then they return as a crack addict Don't feel bad Henshin. I've been through it with Mark Hamill who was my favourite actor at one point, and gave the definitive performance as my favourite villain the Joker, and played many other iconic roles from my childhood like the Trickster and the Hobgoblin. I'd say he is an even bigger woke moron than RTD. He's donated money to actual Nazis in Ukraine and been an apologist for Israel he's so f*cking politically clueless and then there was his shilling for Biden UGH. The 2020s seems to be the decade where a lot of people who were icons to us Millennials seem hell bent on torching their own legacy's. Joss Whedon's suddenly looking pretty good haha. |
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2024 10:34:21 GMT
2014, Missy shows up. First example of an icon of the show being sacrificed to shallow neo liberalism. Show loses 2 million viewers the year after she shows up. We can excuse them doubling down in 2015 as the fandom elites and spineless fans who went along with it said "Oh MY GOD BEST MASTER EVAH." However it was obvious the silent majority felt differently as 2015 that started with her, started as a flop when 2014 didn't. (Typically they blamed Clara and Capaldi even though 2014 didn't start out as a flop and had both of them.) With this in mind, much like Monica with her cookies they think "let's do more of that" in 2017 with Missy as a regular and anti Trump remarks and its viewers go down to 2 million. Then they STILL think let's do more of that and give us Jodie. Okay brief spurt out of curiosity, but within a year viewers are back down to crisis levels and go down every year until they eclipse Capaldi. Then when given a fresh start they do the same thing again to a greater extent and now when their premier is getting the lowest viewers, they still push at it from this angle. Really pigeons do learn faster than them. My dad is the biggest anti-woke conservative you'll ever meet, but even he enjoyed Missy. It was an interesting thing to do and freshened up the dynamic a bit, even if it opened the floodgates for what we have today. I think the reason numbers tanked is because of the general story quality. I remember watching it at the time thinking it felt so tired and out of steam. |
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Post by burrunjor on May 16, 2024 11:32:11 GMT
2014, Missy shows up. First example of an icon of the show being sacrificed to shallow neo liberalism. Show loses 2 million viewers the year after she shows up. We can excuse them doubling down in 2015 as the fandom elites and spineless fans who went along with it said "Oh MY GOD BEST MASTER EVAH." However it was obvious the silent majority felt differently as 2015 that started with her, started as a flop when 2014 didn't. (Typically they blamed Clara and Capaldi even though 2014 didn't start out as a flop and had both of them.) With this in mind, much like Monica with her cookies they think "let's do more of that" in 2017 with Missy as a regular and anti Trump remarks and its viewers go down to 2 million. Then they STILL think let's do more of that and give us Jodie. Okay brief spurt out of curiosity, but within a year viewers are back down to crisis levels and go down every year until they eclipse Capaldi. Then when given a fresh start they do the same thing again to a greater extent and now when their premier is getting the lowest viewers, they still push at it from this angle. Really pigeons do learn faster than them. My dad is the biggest anti-woke conservative you'll ever meet, but even he enjoyed Missy. It was an interesting thing to do and freshened up the dynamic a bit, even if it opened the floodgates for what we have today. I think the reason numbers tanked is because of the general story quality. I remember watching it at the time thinking it felt so tired and out of steam. I obviously don't know your dad personally so I won't cast any judgement on him per say, but ultimately lots of conservatives liked Missy because she was a terrible, terrible, terrible female villain who actually backed up their old fashioned views of women. That's what made it so hilarious that I got told I was just scared of strong women for not liking her. Conservatives always argue that women aren't fit for anything other than being housewives and mothers by and large. They paint all feminists as too ugly to get a man, bring up studies that say women have become more miserable the more rights they get, and they have the same obsession with cat ladies that feminists have with incels. They also make out that men can go for ages without women, but women can't cope without men. Guys like Dave Cullen always say that men can bury themselves in hobbies, whilst women have nothing outside of being with men. Missy meanwhile is a female character whose entire motivation is being with a man. Worse when she was a man she wanted to take over the universe, but now she's a woman her entire priority is being with her fella. That backs up all of their views. The male Master thinks about ruling the universe, the female one only thinks about being with the Doctor. Also conservatives like to make out that women are more emotional, and again Missy is the Master who cries, is moved by the Doctors cheesy speech in direct contrast to her hard male predecessor etc. Do you think conservative viewers would enjoy villains like Alti from Xena, Glory from Buffy, or Jadis? Genuinely strong female villains who have grand motivations to take over the world/universe? Who aren't in love with any men around them? Who torture male characters, beat them up, humiliate them, outsmart them, treat them like they are nothing? I can easily see someone like Dave Cullen hating Alti/Glory/Jadis for not being proper female characters, and praising Missy for being a proper feminine villain who represents womanhood. In a way I speak from experience. As much as I may joke about wanting to be tortured by female villains now LOL. When I was a child and trapped in the same boys vs girls mentality that all kids are, I hated seeing male heroes like Spike get the shit kicked out of them by female villains like Glory, who didn't just beat him up again and again, she made him her little bitch! Sadly however I've learned as Maxil pointed out in another thread, lot's of people don't grow out of that primary school mentality of "boys vs girls", especially conservative redpillers and rad feminists. With that in mind of course Missy will be an ideal villain for both, On the one hand the redpillers love her for not being an actually threatening female villain (I guarantee you, childhood me would not have been scared of her. She is no real danger to the male hero. She kills a few extras, but who cares? Ultimately unlike Glory who called Spike a whiny unattractive little bloodsucker whilst torturing and humiliating him, Missy's entire existence revolves around being with the man.) Whilst rad fems can see her as a childish primary school victory of "we stole a character/toy from the boys hahaha." Meanwhile actual fans LOL could see that she threw the Master in the bin, and even a lot of mainstream viewers could see what direction the show was headed in, hence why after the season 8 finale, the next season started with a drop off of 2 million viewers (I might add the first episode was heavily advertised as having her in it.) Whilst she wasn't the sole reason, she was clearly a contributing factor. Our very own Iank switched off as a result. Personally I don't care much for what conservative fans think. To me they are just as tribal and have just as warped a view of the show as the radfems. From the idiot who wrote that the Doctor is like David Cameron or the likes of Critical Drinker who like Missy, but went absolutely nuts as soon as a trans woman was cast in a supporting role, as a new character. Okay RTD did handle the trans woman being in it in the most cak handed, ego stroking, clumsy and offensive way possible to trans people. Comparing them to funky, shape shifting, genderless aliens. Still in theory there is nothing wrong with a supporting trans character. If they were just a normal person or companion, who gives a f*ck? However the conservative fans would go insane at that, accuse the show and its makers of being groomer pedos, yet have 0 problem with an icon like the Master being trashed if it fits their narrow views. They may be slightly useful in taking the wind out of RTD's sails, but that's it. |
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Post by rushy on May 16, 2024 11:45:00 GMT
I don't like the idea of arbitrarily including gender change in the regeneration, but at the same time, regeneration is such a baloney fantasy concept anyway that I can look past it. It wouldn't really be an issue if Gomez and Whittaker were recognisable as the character.
And I'm speaking as someone who doesn't mind seeing the characters explored in different ways. I love John Simm's take. I'm fine with the drums backstory. Eccleston and Tennant are some of my favourite Doctors too.
But Whittaker and Gomez lack some of the most basic fundamentals. Whittaker's Doctor has no mystique or authority. Gomez's Master has no ego or pride.
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Post by burrunjor on May 16, 2024 12:02:18 GMT
I don't like the idea of arbitrarily including gender change in the regeneration, but at the same time, regeneration is such a baloney fantasy concept anyway that I can look past it. It wouldn't really be an issue if Gomez and Whittaker were recognisable as the character. And I'm speaking as someone who doesn't mind seeing the characters explored in different ways. I love John Simm's take. I'm fine with the drums backstory. Eccleston and Tennant are some of my favourite Doctors too. But Whittaker and Gomez lack some of the most basic fundamentals. Whittaker's Doctor has no mystique or authority. Gomez's Master has no ego or pride. Of the two of them I think Whittaker was better believe it or not. Gomez is undeniably a better actress. She is fantastic in other things, and by all accounts an amazing women. I kind of felt bad at trashing Missy as a result, so I decided to base a leading character in something I'm writing off of Michelle Gomez to make up for it LOL If I was famous that would be a leading role for her there. Still Jodie represented at least a semi recognizable version of the character. I mean yes you're right there was no sense of authority, and she didn't do anything to make it her own, but at least it fitted the very, very basic template of what the Doctor is, a time travelling, eccentric hero. I think Gomez only seems preferrable to some because A/ it was the Master and not the lead character. B/ Jodie led to the timeless children, the single worst retcon in the shows history C/ Jodie played it in auto pilot. You could say that Gomez at least threw herself into the project more. However ultimately in terms of how it was written, which really was Moffat's fault. (He openly admitted to despising the character and just doing his own thing btw, which is what makes the she is the most faithful Master thing even more stupid.) Missy had literally nothing in common with the Master from the start. I mean it really was just a different character. We can debate the merits of that character on its own sure. Again personally I didn't think she was up to much on her own, as she was just a repeat of Irene, River and Tasha, none of whom I particularly liked the first time. Still she is not a legit version of the Master and the reason it's such an obsessive hatred for me, is because it's not good saying that the show was ruined when Capaldi left. If Missy is allowed to be a legit part of canon then nothing has changed. An icon is still ruined and rewritten and from then it's a slippery slope to do the same thing to other icons. Also as I've said before, all these geek websites and youtubers who are absolutely merciless towards other adaptations of villains like Topher Grace's Venom and Leto's Joker and Morbius do kind of make me bitter when they praise Missy who did all of the things those villains did, only 1000000 times worse. Meanwhile John Simm's Master I think would have been excellent in a remake of DW, which again I've said before I wouldn't object too. He is recognizable as the character in a remake, having the same motivation, same sly manipulative strike, same status as the Doctors dark twin/Moriarty. However he just doesn't fit with the original Master in terms of his origins, his relationship with the Doctor and the overtly crazy persona to be a follow on from the original. Also the Jesus Doctor was shit LOL. |
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Post by rushy on May 16, 2024 12:13:02 GMT
Gomez is more preferrable, because she's a more dynamic actress. If anything, they should've cast her as the Doctor and had Jodie play the Master. We know Jodie just based her Doctor on Tennant's, so it'd be interesting to see what she would do without a template (unless she just copied John Simm, which I would be okay with lol).
I don't see why Simm has to be exactly like the original Master. That just ignores the context of his portrayal on so many levels.
There's a massive time gap between the two shows, during which the Time War occurs. The War and its outcome had a traumatic effect on both the Doctor and the Master, which affects how they both see each other. It'd be unrealistic (and honestly uninteresting imo) if there was no evolution in their dynamic. The Time War is a plot device that allows their relationship to move on from how it was.
I don't think this works during the Moffat era, because there's no reason why the Master wants to be the Doctor's girlfriend. But in the RTD era, both of them becoming more nostalgic about a friendship they once shared when everything else in their lives has changed makes total sense to me.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2024 12:13:04 GMT
"Autopilot" is the perfect description of Jodie's portrayal that I've been looking for all these years
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Post by burrunjor on May 16, 2024 12:36:44 GMT
Gomez is more preferrable, because she's a more dynamic actress. If anything, they should've cast her as the Doctor and had Jodie play the Master. We know Jodie just based her Doctor on Tennant's, so it'd be interesting to see what she would do without a template (unless she just copied John Simm, which I would be okay with lol). I don't see why Simm has to be exactly like the original Master. That just ignores the context of his portrayal on so many levels. There's a massive time gap between the two shows, during which the Time War occurs. The War and its outcome had a traumatic effect on both the Doctor and the Master, which affects how they both see each other. It'd be unrealistic (and honestly uninteresting imo) if there was no evolution in their dynamic. The Time War is a plot device that allows their relationship to move on from how it was. I don't think this works during the Moffat era, because there's no reason why the Master wants to be the Doctor's girlfriend. But in the RTD era, both of them becoming more nostalgic about a friendship they once shared when everything else in their lives has changed makes total sense to me. I'm all for the Master changing. He changed considerably in the classic era, but it has to be natural. The burned Master is a natural change from Delgado, in that he has since suffered an accident that stripped him of his regenerations and left him a burned out husk, so naturally he's more desperate, more bitter, and more resentful of the Doctor who he feels got in the way and stopped him from becoming the god emperor of the universe by both interfering his plans and distracting him with their feud etc. He's a Master who knows he is at the end of his life and has nothing to show for it, but of course will never take responsibility for his own failure of a life so he pins it all on the Doctor. Ainley meanwhile follows on from that by having him find a new body which allows him to be more stable, but after what happened he is also still more unhinged than Delgado, with the cheetah virus finally stripping away the last illusion of sanity, leading to Roberts being more animalistic, savage and brutal. Simm however again his changes feel more like a remake. To start with he wasn't driven insane by the Time War. It's made clear that he was insane from the start, by the drums in his head from when he stared into the untempered schism as child. This doesn't mesh with the Masters history, as to start with he never mentioned the drums before. He also wasn't a psycho in the beginning. He was a megalomaniac who wanted power, but that's different. In the classic era his arc is watching him slowly deteriorate mentally to the point where he goes from a dignified, well spoken villain to a caricature kept alive by hatred. What's even better is that he is largely driven to that by his own failings. His petty hatred of the Doctor, his insane lust for power, his own cowardice, his own failure of a life are all what push him down that dark path. Okay there are certain outside factors, like whatever costs him his lives in the Deadly Assassin, the Cheetah virus, but even then they only speed up what was already happening and those things undoubtedly only happened because of his failings anyway. Those decades of development are thrown in the bin thanks to Simm, where now he was crazy from the start. Also sorry but his relationship with the Doctor doesn't make much sense. To start with they didn't have a big friendship in the original series. Like I said it was mentioned in ONE story, The Sea Devils, where even then it's mentioned in one scene. It's only mentioned in one other story, The Five Doctors that the two of them even knew each other prior to their feud and even there the story goes out of its way to suggest they didn't know each other that well, with the First Doctor not knowing who the hell he is. In New Who however their friendship is presented as the most important thing in eithers lives, and RTD even said he wrote them as soul mates who were in love. Also the idea the Doctor would want to have anything to do with him after Logopolis is ridiculous. Furthermore I fail to see even within the context of New Who why he would want to even spare the Master. Considering as far as he knew he killed his entire people for the greater good, why wouldn't he kill this asshole. It's hilarious in The End of Time when he says he won't kill the Master to save the earth as that would be murder but then sends billions of Time Lords back to die in the hell of the Time War without a seconds hesitation LOL. Also finally the Doctor acts as though the Master is a good person underneath the drums. He frequently says "you don't want to do this" "I'm here to help him." Why did he NEVER think that throughout the entirety of classic who? He always without exception saw him as an asshole who could not be redeemed. Also I feel that trying after so long to make the Master a Callisto type, tragic, crying on the inside villain doesn't fit with what we've seen of him so far. Again it works as a remake version. It comes at it from a different angle of lets make the Master sympathetic, which is fine, you should do that in remakes. Also I don't mind the friendship being a bigger deal in a remake, as again that's what you do. You look at something that was there in the original and then you maybe explore that more like "okay in the original it was mentioned they were friends, so let's make that the focus." However unlike Missy, Simm keeps enough of the core template of the Master, like his lust for power, his hypnotic powers, his manipulative streak and just his role as the Doctors Moriarty that it is still recognizable as an adaptation of that villain. It just falls apart when you link it to the original version specifically for practical reasons, which again is why New Who should have been a remake, or at the most a very loose sequel. |
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Post by rushy on May 16, 2024 12:49:48 GMT
The show makes it clear that the drums have become more and more intense over time. They're not meant to be the root cause of his thirst for power, and probably didn't affect him that much during the classic series. As you said, he's a megalomaniac. The fact that the Simm version does end up going insane - and that he was influenced by the Time Lords - is an embarrassment to him. It's like a variation of the Survival Master, where the disease is taking root in him. Except here, he actually cracks up. He becomes more self-loathing and nihilistic because he's aware of his failings.
The friendship thing makes sense too. They were probably no closer than friendly roommates originally. But they've known each other for so many years now, and have lost everything else. They would apply much more importance and nostalgia to that mild friendship, because it's an anchor to hold on to.
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Post by burrunjor on May 16, 2024 13:08:19 GMT
The show makes it clear that the drums have become more and more intense over time. They're not meant to be the root cause of his thirst for power, and probably didn't affect him that much during the classic series. As you said, he's a megalomaniac. The fact that the Simm version does end up going insane - and that he was influenced by the Time Lords - is an embarrassment to him. It's like a variation of the Survival Master, where the disease is taking root in him. Except here, he actually cracks up. He becomes more self-loathing and nihilistic because he's aware of his failings. The friendship thing makes sense too. They were probably no closer than friendly roommates originally. But they've known each other for so many years now, and have lost everything else. They would apply much more importance and nostalgia to that mild friendship, because it's an anchor to hold on to. Sorry but it is not made clear that the drums built up over time. At every opportunity it is said to be the opposite. The Doctor states that it all began when he stared into the untempered schism as does the Master, stating that the drums was his call to war. Even the Time Lords outright state that the drums were the reason he went insane. Finally look at what he says to Rassilon. "You did this to me! All of my life! YOU MADE ME!"
Clearly the Simm Master was meant to be a Joker/Callisto/Carnage type of villain. A giggling, unhinged, playful psychopath who is driven mad by one traumatic event (that in Callisto/Carnage/The Masters case happened when they were children, hence their somewhat stunted child like persona, mixed in with a life time of rage and bitterness.) In all cases the hero looks on them as a damaged person rather than someone evil and wants to help them, and in all cases there is someone they blame for ruining them "YOU MADE ME" is said by the Joker and Callisto many times. Those villains were very popular then so it makes sense that's what RTD was trying to tap into, but ultimately again it just didn't mesh with the original Master who was absolutely NOT that type of villain. He was good because he was such an asshole who didn't have anyone to blame but himself. Also finally the friendship angle was retconned as they were meant to have been unbelievably close even as children in the RTD age with mention being made of them running through their fathers estates. |
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2024 13:09:00 GMT
The drums weren't a result of the untempered schism. For all we know that's just a fanciful story the Doctor made up to justify the Master's insanity. The drums were retroactively planted in the young Master's head by the Time Lords during the Time War. What we saw of him in the classic series takes place before the Time War so the drums wouldn't have been there.
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