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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2024 14:22:41 GMT
My head hurts reading this. He says it like it's really rad or something, but it just sounds like some warped fantasy of someone who has absolutely no idea about the series or the character. This is a certified "Let them eat cake" moment. Just has absolutely no idea how things work in the real world. The common people have had enough of this crap and things will inevitably swing the other way sooner or later. In 10 or 20 years' time, people will look on stuff like this and think "how did we let them get in power?", a la Germany in the post-war period. |
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Post by burrunjor on Apr 17, 2024 15:38:06 GMT
My head hurts reading this. He says it like it's really rad or something, but it just sounds like some warped fantasy of someone who has absolutely no idea about the series or the character. This is a certified "Let them eat cake" moment. Just has absolutely no idea how things work in the real world. The common people have had enough of this crap and things will inevitably swing the other way sooner or later. In 10 or 20 years' time, people will look on stuff like this and think "how did we let them get in power?", a la Germany in the post-war period. Ohhhhh careful you don't want to end up like Gina Carano and be accused of being a white nationalist monster for the rest of your life for jokingly comparing people you don't like to Nazis. Unbelievable to think we live in a world where if Gina Carano was cast as Xena in a remake, people would object, whilst Ncuti is deemed a great choice to play a dusty old professorial grandfatherly character like the Doctor. We truly do live in a weirdo backwards universe LOL. Incidentally does anyone remember that Curb Your Enthusiasm episode where Larry David called his wife Hitler and Jeff's parents overheard and hated him forever after that? That's pretty much Gina Carano's life LMFAO. Larry David was a prophet as well as a comedy genius. |
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Post by Bernard Marx on Apr 17, 2024 15:55:44 GMT
At this point, they're actively trying to make even the Chibnall era resemble high-art... |
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Post by Cherry Pepsi Maxil on Apr 17, 2024 18:50:23 GMT
At this point, they're actively trying to make even the Chibnall era resemble high-art... Was the Whittaker era this contentious? It was shit, obviously, but one could argue that was because nobody involved had the proper attitude or skills to make the series to a high standard. This seems to be crap on purpose! |
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Post by Cherry Pepsi Maxil on Apr 17, 2024 18:55:23 GMT
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Post by UncleDeadly on Apr 17, 2024 19:07:59 GMT
Speaking as a Doctor Who fan, i can't help but be confused; I thought stupid clothes were supposed to ruin the show..? |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2024 19:14:32 GMT
They're gonna excuse it by saying "it's a kilt!!!" Tom Baker wore a kilt in the Zygon episode and never once did I think he was wearing a frock. Yeah, maybe technically it is a kilt, but it's obviously designed to look like a skirt.
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Post by burrunjor on Apr 17, 2024 19:42:47 GMT
Speaking as a Doctor Who fan, i can't help but be confused; I thought stupid clothes were supposed to ruin the show..? No, no, no, no that was the 80s and the show got canned a year after entirely because of that, and then some intellectuals on panel shows like Paul "Dolphin in a Bathtub" Merton made out DW was for losers so that was obviously worse. Meanwhile this is by Russell T Davies who made us keeeeeeewwwwwwl for 4 years in the 2000s and is so in touch with the young X-Factor, Myspace, McFly generation so it's totally different even if it is a far more campy, ridiculous and laughable costume then even Colin's in every way. |
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Post by burrunjor on Apr 17, 2024 19:44:44 GMT
They're gonna excuse it by saying "it's a kilt!!!" Tom Baker wore a kilt in the Zygon episode and never once did I think he was wearing a frock. Yeah, maybe technically it is a kilt, but it's obviously designed to look like a skirt. That is EXACTLY the type of shit, pedantic, out of context defense they'd use, like Hartnell got accidentally engaged to a character without knowing it, in a comedy plot so that excuses the Doctor slapping Jenna Coleman on the arse. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2024 22:39:18 GMT
I'm just tired of ignoring the obvious sexism as well. No (especially white) men allowed, and if they are, they'll doubtless be gay or trans or something. There will never be another white male in the TARDIS who isn't also a stooge, like Graham or Dan. Even Sean Noble, by all accounts a great husband who puts up with Donna's shit, gets turned into a wet fish in those specials. I feel bad for that guy trying to make ends meet while being surrounded by those three workshy harridans. These progressives really have a knack for making their supposed "heroes" completely terrible people without even realising it. RTD goes out of his way to, ugh, deconstruct the Tenth Doctor, the most popular modern incarnation and a role model for young boys all over the country, turning him into a sobbing, moping baby while he is replaced by a "male hero for the modern age" (aka, he's male only in name). Ncuti Gatwa can f*ck off, I'm done giving these decadent creeps more chances.
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Post by burrunjor on Apr 18, 2024 9:04:30 GMT
I'm just tired of ignoring the obvious sexism as well. No (especially white) men allowed, and if they are, they'll doubtless be gay or trans or something. There will never be another white male in the TARDIS who isn't also a stooge, like Graham or Dan. Even Sean Noble, by all accounts a great husband who puts up with Donna's shit, gets turned into a wet fish in those specials. I feel bad for that guy trying to make ends meet while being surrounded by those three workshy harridans. These progressives really have a knack for making their supposed "heroes" completely terrible people without even realising it. RTD goes out of his way to, ugh, deconstruct the Tenth Doctor, the most popular modern incarnation and a role model for young boys all over the country, turning him into a sobbing, moping baby while he is replaced by a "male hero for the modern age" (aka, he's male only in name). Ncuti Gatwa can f*ck off, I'm done giving these decadent creeps more chances. LMFAO, I don't like to use words like cuck and simp anymore, but f*ck me Donna's husband is the definition of those things to the point where he seems like something from a bad parody a tribal, bigoted idiot like Ben Shapiro would do about a feminist man. This is a man who was happy for his wife to give away what was it? 150 million in a single day? His attitude to that was "I'd never have won that argument." Of course again I'm not saying he should have been a caveman "keep your woman in check" LOL. Still surely there is a happy medium between that and not wanting to give away a lifetime of wealth and comfort? He is now forced to do a low paying, extremely difficult job where he has to work long hours, drive people around a crime infested city (also as a black man in the modern world where racial tensions are at an all time high, I'm sure that must be lovely LOL) to support HER, whilst she doesn't work! Imagine being him. Knowing you could have had 150 million to do whatever you want for the rest of your life, provide for your kids, your grandkids, your elderly, sick parents, and being forced to get up at like 6 in the morning to do a 12 hour shift for tuppance, work weekends, drive the wealthy around a city like London. Yet he not only stays with the person that did that, he supports her lazy arse and actually says he's the luckiest man in the world! Oh and his daughter has been raised brilliantly to respect people by the mother, regardless of their race and gender, hence why she insults a man who just saved her and the city for his gender and humiliates him for it in front of everyone. Honestly the I'm a cuck song doesn't do him justice, and I'm a bitch doesn't do his perfect in every way wife justice either. Again what is wrong with these people? I grew out of girls vs boys mentality after I left Primary School. Again though I think it's deliberate, to wind people up so that when they rightfully criticise these pathetic male characters, they can then say their critics are sexists and look like the modern day Gene Roddenberry fighting the bigots who are against positive change. |
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Post by burrunjor on Apr 18, 2024 9:20:20 GMT
 I just love these people's ego. Back in the 60s when it was a big deal to have a black person on tv, Nichelle Nichols still had to be convinced by Martin Luther King of all people that what she was doing was important. Similarly Eartha Kitt, who played Catwoman, the love interest of the main white hero, who was not only presented as desirable to every man around her, but badass, smart, and domineering in every situation. She not only made Batman her bitch, but the Joker was her sidekick when they teamed up! Okay it was a comedy, but still it was also an adventure show and that was 60 years ago. She hardly even mentioned her Catwoman, never mind bummed about what a big deal it was. Ncuti Gatwa in contrast has literally never shut up about his race and how significant it is, and never mind not being the first black lead in the show, he isn't even the first black Doctor. What is significant about him? There have been black leads in DW alone for literally 20 years now. That said in all fairness to Gatwa I think a lot of the time these people have to say this, and in some cases it's probably not even them talking, just a publicist. Hell even if they say it, it will still have been written by their publicits. Never mind that Peter Capaldi quote that everybody agrees was fake, look at the recent interview with Freema Agyeman. Now again I LOVE her and if you have anything horrid to say about her you can just about bloomin well say it to me first LOL. Still that quote from a few years ago about having to deal with racism in DW, was obviously either something she had to say, or again probably just written by a member of the production team. She never mentioned it or her race in any interview before, she was beloved when she appeared (with the only backlash being from silly Rose/Ten shippers who were a joke in the fandom.) Social media wasn't even really a thing back then, but now 20 years later she remembers there being a big racist backlash? Maybe Ncuti hasn't even said this, though I'm certainly not saying that is the case, but you can never tell. Ironically black actors as seen with Freema rarely get to voice their own opinions. It's often those of smug, out of touch, middle aged white men who employ them. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2024 9:45:35 GMT
That said in all fairness to Gatwa I think a lot of the time these people have to say this, and in some cases it's probably not even them talking, just a publicist. Hell even if they say it, it will still have been written by their publicits. Never mind that Peter Capaldi quote that everybody agrees was fake, look at the recent interview with Freema Agyeman. Now again I LOVE her and if you have anything horrid to say about her you can just about bloomin well say it to me first LOL. Still that quote from a few years ago about having to deal with racism in DW, was obviously either something she had to say, or again probably just written by a member of the production team. She never mentioned it or her race in any interview before, she was beloved when she appeared (with the only backlash being from silly Rose/Ten shippers who were a joke in the fandom.) Social media wasn't even really a thing back then, but now 20 years later she remembers there being a big racist backlash? Maybe Ncuti hasn't even said this, though I'm certainly not saying that is the case, but you can never tell. Ironically black actors as seen with Freema rarely get to voice their own opinions. It's often those of smug, out of touch, middle aged white men who employ them. I feel the same way about Louise Jameson recently coming out and saying she was groped on set. I'm not even denying it's true, but if it was such a big deal, surely it would've come out during the, what, almost fifty years since she was a companion? It seems like trend-hopping to me, especially with the Weinstein conviction and broader #MeToo movement. Again with Freema, I'm sure there was some racist abuse (on fringe, long-defunct forums that she never would have stumbled upon in a million years, mind you) but why is it only coming out now? Everyone who has some kind of prominence in the public eye is gonna get hate, even the most beloved celebrities like Keanu Reeves I'm sure get vile messages in their inbox from trolls. I just don't understand why people take it so seriously. Maybe it is just a simple case of actors being precious, I don't know. I feel the same way about Talons of Weng-Chiang, where I can't fathom giving as much of a shit as a lot of other fans do. Yeah, its sensibilities are a little dated, but it's hardly advocating for discrimination or violence against Chinese people. It's something to share a laugh about, if anything. Why we need special features and panels fronted by race theorists banging on about it completely boggles my mind. |
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Post by Ludders II on Apr 18, 2024 10:00:58 GMT
That said in all fairness to Gatwa I think a lot of the time these people have to say this, and in some cases it's probably not even them talking, just a publicist. Hell even if they say it, it will still have been written by their publicits. Never mind that Peter Capaldi quote that everybody agrees was fake, look at the recent interview with Freema Agyeman. Now again I LOVE her and if you have anything horrid to say about her you can just about bloomin well say it to me first LOL. Still that quote from a few years ago about having to deal with racism in DW, was obviously either something she had to say, or again probably just written by a member of the production team. She never mentioned it or her race in any interview before, she was beloved when she appeared (with the only backlash being from silly Rose/Ten shippers who were a joke in the fandom.) Social media wasn't even really a thing back then, but now 20 years later she remembers there being a big racist backlash? Maybe Ncuti hasn't even said this, though I'm certainly not saying that is the case, but you can never tell. Ironically black actors as seen with Freema rarely get to voice their own opinions. It's often those of smug, out of touch, middle aged white men who employ them. I feel the same way about Louise Jameson recently coming out and saying she was groped on set. I'm not even denying it's true, but if it was such a big deal, surely it would've come out during the, what, almost fifty years since she was a companion? It seems like trend-hopping to me, especially with the Weinstein conviction and broader #MeToo movement. Again with Freema, I'm sure there was some racist abuse (on fringe, long-defunct forums that she never would have stumbled upon in a million years, mind you) but why is it only coming out now? Everyone who has some kind of prominence in the public eye is gonna get hate, even the most beloved celebrities like Keanu Reeves I'm sure get vile messages in their inbox from trolls. I just don't understand why people take it so seriously. Maybe it is just a simple case of actors being precious, I don't know. I feel the same way about Talons of Weng-Chiang, where I can't fathom giving as much of a shit as a lot of other fans do. Yeah, its sensibilities are a little dated, but it's hardly advocating for discrimination or violence against Chinese people. It's something to share a laugh about, if anything. Why we need special features and panels fronted by race theorists banging on about it completely boggles my mind. It could be seen as a trend, but equally it could be seen as people feeling more comfortable in saying 'this also happened to me'. Louise has said that she simply didn't feel that she could complain at the time, and that she was young, naive and a bit green, so obviously didn't have the confidence to speak up at the time. Whilst I take the point that there has been a long period of time in which she could've said something, is it really up to anyone else to say when she should've done? Totally agree with you on Talons though. It's ridiculous to apply contemporary standards to something from 1976. And besides that, maybe Bert Kuwok wasn't available.  |
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Post by burrunjor on Apr 18, 2024 11:23:46 GMT
I feel the same way about Louise Jameson recently coming out and saying she was groped on set. I'm not even denying it's true, but if it was such a big deal, surely it would've come out during the, what, almost fifty years since she was a companion? It seems like trend-hopping to me, especially with the Weinstein conviction and broader #MeToo movement. Again with Freema, I'm sure there was some racist abuse (on fringe, long-defunct forums that she never would have stumbled upon in a million years, mind you) but why is it only coming out now? Everyone who has some kind of prominence in the public eye is gonna get hate, even the most beloved celebrities like Keanu Reeves I'm sure get vile messages in their inbox from trolls. I just don't understand why people take it so seriously. Maybe it is just a simple case of actors being precious, I don't know. I feel the same way about Talons of Weng-Chiang, where I can't fathom giving as much of a shit as a lot of other fans do. Yeah, its sensibilities are a little dated, but it's hardly advocating for discrimination or violence against Chinese people. It's something to share a laugh about, if anything. Why we need special features and panels fronted by race theorists banging on about it completely boggles my mind. It could be seen as a trend, but equally it could be seen as people feeling more comfortable in saying 'this also happened to me'. Louise has said that she simply didn't feel that she could complain at the time, and that she was young, naive and a bit green, so obviously didn't have the confidence to speak up at the time. Whilst I take the point that there has been a long period of time in which she could've said something, is it really up to anyone else to say when she should've done? Totally agree with you on Talons though. It's ridiculous to apply contemporary standards to something from 1976. And besides that, maybe Bert Kuwok wasn't available. Yeah I agree with you Ludders. Sorry Yak but I don't think you can compare someone coming out about sexual assault years later to what Freema said. To start with it obviously can severely traumatise someone and they may not feel comfortable admitting it happened, or may even blame themselves. That may sound stupid to us, but sadly that's the type of irrational thinking that can happen when you've suffered that way. Also as it is a serious accusation, and it was most likely someone higher up that did it to her, then her career would most likely have suffered as a result. In Freema's case however I fail to see why she wouldn't have mentioned it at the time? The type of trolls that would have said things about her weren't exactly industry bigwigs she couldn't have said anything about, and even back then she would have got sympathy. Probably more as the culture war crap hadn't taken over and RTD was always abusing fans who criticised him, and yes sometimes falling back on the "you just don't like me because I'm gay" crap, calling his critics homophobic even if they were in some cases gay. He even devoted a whole chapter to his critics in a book and called them internet bastard voices. Yet no mention of racism towards Freema in any instance, even from him? Again I'm not saying this means believe everyone who comes forward with a sexual assault case. Obviously you do get people who lie, both men and women for money, fame and just to settle old scores. It has to be taken always on a case by case basis, no court of opinion, politics getting in the way, but certainly I don't dismiss it because it came forward later. After all that monster Jimmy Savile went through his entire life sadly never being persecuted. Meanwhile Talons of Weng Chang is racist, but yeah again it's not a piece of white supremacist propaganda or anything. It's simply a piece of dated tv that did a white guy up as a Chinese person, because as you said there weren't many Asian actors in Britain at the time other than Burt Kwok, and it drew from old outdated Victorian stereotypes. You can say the same about plenty of fiction both before and after. To be honest, by modern standards Weng Chang is no more racist than the entire Jenny Calendar story arc from Buffy. (One of my all time favourite stories in anything.) For those who don't watch it, Jenny is meant to be a Romani person, and she and her family are as much of a stereotype as the villain in Weng Chang. Her people are all mad, magic using weirdos who care more about vengeance than justice. Also the fact that they are called Gypsy's which I understand is actually a slur akin to n****er but is not recognised as such makes it very dated. However again you just accept that and appreciate other good aspects of the story, and also understand that there wasn't any real malice behind it, it really did just reflect the ignorance about Romani people back then. Also I might add both Buffy and DW are fantasy series that feature exaggerated characters, and stereotypes of all kinds from Jamie being the stereotype of the kilt wearing, dashing, handsome Scotsman that the ladies can't resist (oh how I wish that stereotype was true LOL) Or Spike being a cockney nutjob stereotype and don't even get me started on Angel's human self's Irish persona or accent. LMFAO Also in both cases the villain from Weng Chang and Jenny were also somewhat positive representations compared to the standards of the time, as the villain in Weng Chang is a bit more of a complex character, who was corrupted by a white figure and even gets a poignant death scene, whilst Jenny is also not only a complex character but is more up to date with the modern world than Giles is. Meanwhile ironically if you do want to talk about malicious racism that is written with an agenda and goes against the standards of the time, New Who and a lot of modern series are far more guilty of that towards white men (and unintentionally the awful, condescending way they write women and minorities.) Here an oldie but a goodie, from Class, the awful SJW themed spin off from DW in 2016. TANYA: White people.
APRIL: White people what?
TANYA: Always so optimistic. Always so certain things are going to work out for you. Oh, well, because they usually do.
APRIL: My dad tried to kill me when I was eight.
TANYA: But you got your mum up walking again. Typical white-person happy ending.I remember when I first posted that on the Hive years ago, people thought I'd just made it up because it was so awful. Again leaving aside the disgusting bigotry towards white people, that's an awful way to portray black people. If I were black I'd rather have Blade and Dave Lister characters made 20 years before represent me. |
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