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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2023 22:17:35 GMT
Those are the actual results after they did that "pick five of your favourite episodes" thing. Before it was fiddled City of Death was actually ranked ahead of Genesis and WEAT/TDF was also ahead of Heaven Sent meaning it's technically not the best episode and wouldn't have been ranked first had they just done it normally.
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Post by rushy on Nov 9, 2023 22:35:03 GMT
The direction. I think Rachel Talalay has been talked about negatively on here (or maybe a previous version of the forum), but she's a very good director. Some of the scenes are beautifully shot. She's a great director now, but I'll never get over her work on Freddy's Dead: The Final Nightmare |
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Post by Monster X on Nov 9, 2023 22:36:11 GMT
I watched The Doctor Falls earlier. So the Master essentially gets a boner over his future regeneration and there's some very *subtle* foreshadowing of a female Doctor as well. The Cybermen do their thing (but those rubbish Moffat era ones are in there now) and the Doctor delivers a "kindness" speech in a typical NuWho preachy way that says a lot but equally somehow manages to say nothing at all. Sorry, but is this some sort of weird dream I'm having? How is this the second best Doctor Who story ever made? The Bill/Cyberman thing is well done and I do like the general location, but it pales in comparison to the first episode I'm afraid. The Be Kind speech became an obnoxious mantra spouted by cultish new who fans whenever they were being anything but kind. Just the other day on Gallifrey reddit I tried to have a convo about the differences between new who and old who and got tons of seek help comments aimed my way and again told I'm boring non stop, all with the same be kind mantra. BTW when the f*ck was the Doctor kind? He was always a bit of an arsehole in the original series. I've just watched a story where he tells everyone they'll all be dead by morning with a smile on his face, and responds when Leela tells a guy she'll cut out his heart "you heard what she said" LOL. Meanwhile in the previous story he threw a guy into a machine that drained his bodily fluids, and in a story before that he tossed a flesh eating slug onto a guy because he was being an annoying arse? Obviously he is a hero, but he's not f*cking Jesus! Meanwhile the Bill Cyberman thing was kind of a retread of Dalek/Clara where she wasn't even aware of who she was, and she was also given another fairy tale ending with a water girl who can if she wants eliminate the Daleks and cure all the Cybermen. Also yes the Sugababe Cybermen were not a welcome addition and made no sense. If the Cybermen have advanced at that rate before they reach earth, why were there no Sugababe Cybermen in the Hartnell era? Why the f*ck are the Cybusmen there at all since they come from another universe? Shouldn't there have been some Troughton era Cybermen instead since they were the next stage on from Hartnell, or some Invasion era Cybermen who at least existed at that point?
Ha! Ha! So true! Besides, goody goody heroes are dull. |
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Post by rushy on Nov 9, 2023 22:50:12 GMT
Besides, goody goody heroes are dull. Not necessarily - heroes like Superman aren't dull by default, because they can face complex issues that challenge their absolutist morality. And when intelligently written, they can also be aware that things aren't always black and white despite always striving to do their best. But of course this requires the writers to treat their audience like intelligent people. And I concur with Burrunjor that the Doctor is not like Superman at all. Hartnell should be the baseline for every Doctor's characterisation.He's a moral man deep down, yes, but he's also devious, self-interested, egotistical, holier-than-thou, indulgent. The main reason the Doctor saves people is because he has the ability to do so, and he'd be a complete monster if he wouldn't under the circumstances he finds himself in. He doesn't go out of his way to be a hero, and he'd really much rather introduce Coca-Cola to the Sea Devils just to see what happens. The Doctor is much closer to Q than to Captain Picard. |
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Post by burrunjor on Nov 9, 2023 23:52:41 GMT
Besides, goody goody heroes are dull. Not necessarily - heroes like Superman aren't dull by default, because they can face complex issues that challenge their absolutist morality. And when intelligently written, they can also be aware that things aren't always black and white despite always striving to do their best. But of course this requires the writers to treat their audience like intelligent people. And I concur with Burrunjor that the Doctor is not like Superman at all. Hartnell should be the baseline for every Doctor's characterisation.He's a moral man deep down, yes, but he's also devious, self-interested, egotistical, holier-than-thou, indulgent. The main reason the Doctor saves people is because he has the ability to do so, and he'd be a complete monster if he wouldn't under the circumstances he finds himself in. He doesn't go out of his way to be a hero, and he'd really much rather introduce Coca-Cola to the Sea Devils just to see what happens. The Doctor is much closer to Q than to Captain Picard. Completely true. I'd also argue that the Doctor often only saves the day because he has to as his curiosity has gotten him into trouble. Hartnell dragged them all into the Dalek city because he was curious, Troughton dragged them into the Cyberman's tomb because he was curious, Pertwee snatched the Metebelis crystal and got a man killed because he was curious, Davison dragged Peri into Androzani because he was curious. People always say "Androzani shows how kind the Doctor is because he risks so much to save a woman he hardly knows." He's the one who dragged her into it because he was a selfish, reckless arsehole! If he hadn't gone through hell to save her after she was captured, tortured, poisoned and groped by a madman entirely, 100 percent because of him, he'd be f*cking evil! Hartnell meanwhile was the baseline for every Doctors characterisation in the original series. The minute the show lost its way was when Tennant's/Eccelston's Doctor became the baseline for every Doctor in the new series. Hartnell's Doctor NOT Troughton's was the one who established the Doctor's core character. They are all variations of his performance in the following ways.. They all explore the universe because they wanted to see it like he did, learn about its various species, secrets. etc. They all hated not getting their own way and would act like petty dicks if given tasks, even if it was to save the universe. They always had to do it on their time. At the same time however they could be mature in other ways, like dealing with loss and death. Perhaps even coldly so at times. They all had the same moral code where they'd be willing to kill if need be, but preferred peaceful solutions if possible and were very cold, ruthless and matter of fact if they needed to kill. They all as you say where decent underneath it, and believed in treating all life forms as equals. They were all asexual like him, and often adopted a more fatherly/mentor role to the young companion. They all tended to reject authority and openly mock and undermine it. Most of them tended to be arrogant and have one rule for them, another for everyone else. They all are cagey about their past. Even little things, like the way they dress. (Hartnell dressed in Victorian/Edwardian era clothing, wore a hat, had a long scarf, a cape, a frock coat, and elements of these popped up in every Doctors costume after.) The way they look, with long, big crazy hair and being played by a usually older, eccentric character actor. Being a Jack of all trades type character. Hartnell is established as a dabbler who has skills in many areas, due to his long life, time machine and short attention span. He is obviously skilled in a lot of technical areas, is a decent lawyer and is shown to be a reasonably skilled fighter. It always annoys me when people act like Pertwee was the first to do that. Hartnell beat the shit out of the Monk and locked him in a tomb (in fact he wrapped him up in bandages.) He also knocked out a Vicking with a stick, beat his robot double in a cane fight, held his own in a sword fight with a soldier, and kicked the shit out of an armed Roman assassin, even toyed with him when he was unarmed. Pertwee didn't come out of nowhere. That's not to say Troughton's Doctor wasn't important. He showed it could be played another one, and I'd say ironed out the Hartnell template, and showed which parts of his character were vital, and which could be cut out. For instance he didn't have to be a frail old man, or be quite so grumpy, but he did have to have the same moral code, the same love of travelling. PS for saying this on Gallifrey Reddit I got a lot of shit about not understanding DW or how wonderfully impossibly silly and versatile the Doctor is. My whole point btw wasn't even saying this is how the Doctor has to always be. Unlike them as I have said 1000000s of times before, there will be a reboot or a remake of DW somewhere down the line. There is no way one continuity can go on forever or hundreds of years. It will have to have other adaptations or versions like any long running character where yes you can play around with the characterisation as long as you stick to the basic idea. However if you DO want to continue the original series characterisation and story, then you absolutely have to follow the Hartnell template and develop it in a natural way. The new who writers however tried to have their cake and eat it too, resulting in the mess the revival became where it goes out of its way to smash up the original to be free from it pissing off old fans, after which it then has to indulge in member berries to show it's the same, which drives away new viewers. Meanwhile a proper remake that has an actual clean slate, or a sequel that's for the fans would be better for all. Sorry but you can't combine the two. In spite of the demonstrable failure of this approach, the Gallifrey Reddit people still say it's the only way to go. It truly is Einstein's definition of madness. At this stage I feel like f*cking Jeff Goldblum in Jurassic World saying how many times has the point going to be made? I really, REALLY hope the SPOILERS Bi-regeneration rumor is true which states that the Doctor will split into two separate beings when he regenerates with Tennant and Gatwa who gets his own TARDIS being the current Doctors. Surely that will bring an end to the argument that I've been saying about how the Doctors character has been destroyed, when he's now two people and we don't know which is the real one! No I'll bet I'll still get told this is what DW does and you don't the impossibly silly wonderfulness of the Doctor. |
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Post by iank on Nov 9, 2023 23:54:26 GMT
Why would you even bother talking to these people. They're morons.
Doctor Who, including the actual character, is lost.
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Post by burrunjor on Nov 9, 2023 23:59:42 GMT
Why would you even bother talking to these people. They're morons. Doctor Who, including the actual character, is lost. True but sometimes you want to broaden your horizons. As much as I like you guys, you do want to talk to people who disagree with you at times and have actual discussions and hear other perspectives. They just can't take other opinions there though and go nuts and thumb every comment you make into oblivion if you disagree. To be honest it shows that they agree with me I think, as it looks like they are scared of being swayed by my points. I mean what other reason can there be for this fear of other opinions? I'd never thumb your comments down about say Death to the Daleks and act like "No, no, no he can't be allowed to say that." Again though I don't think these represent all or even most New Who fans. I think they are either the fandom elite who need it to further their careers, or who have been swayed that way. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2023 0:00:42 GMT
The Be Kind speech became an obnoxious mantra spouted by cultish new who fans whenever they were being anything but kind. Just the other day on Gallifrey reddit I tried to have a convo about the differences between new who and old who and got tons of seek help comments aimed my way and again told I'm boring non stop, all with the same be kind mantra. BTW when the f*ck was the Doctor kind? He was always a bit of an arsehole in the original series. I've just watched a story where he tells everyone they'll all be dead by morning with a smile on his face, and responds when Leela tells a guy she'll cut out his heart "you heard what she said" LOL. Meanwhile in the previous story he threw a guy into a machine that drained his bodily fluids, and in a story before that he tossed a flesh eating slug onto a guy because he was being an annoying arse? Obviously he is a hero, but he's not f*cking Jesus! Meanwhile the Bill Cyberman thing was kind of a retread of Dalek/Clara where she wasn't even aware of who she was, and she was also given another fairy tale ending with a water girl who can if she wants eliminate the Daleks and cure all the Cybermen. Also yes the Sugababe Cybermen were not a welcome addition and made no sense. If the Cybermen have advanced at that rate before they reach earth, why were there no Sugababe Cybermen in the Hartnell era? Why the f*ck are the Cybusmen there at all since they come from another universe? Shouldn't there have been some Troughton era Cybermen instead since they were the next stage on from Hartnell, or some Invasion era Cybermen who at least existed at that point?
Ha! Ha! So true! Besides, goody goody heroes are dull. He's an arsehole, but a likeable arsehole. In the new series he's just a smug tosser I can't get behind. Am I the only one who was rooting for the Daleks in Parting of the Ways?  |
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Post by iank on Nov 10, 2023 0:15:24 GMT
So what were the proper results (top 10 classic)? Anyone know?
Not really interested in the placings from a completely different show.
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Post by cyberhat on Nov 10, 2023 2:40:13 GMT
This poll is based on profile not quality
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2023 9:42:30 GMT
So what were the proper results (top 10 classic)? Anyone know? Not really interested in the placings from a completely different show. They only released the top ten. I assume the whole thing will be released next issue. I suppose they need a bit more time to fiddle with the results. |
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Post by Monster X on Nov 10, 2023 9:44:52 GMT
Besides, goody goody heroes are dull. Not necessarily - heroes like Superman aren't dull by default, because they can face complex issues that challenge their absolutist morality. And when intelligently written, they can also be aware that things aren't always black and white despite always striving to do their best. But of course this requires the writers to treat their audience like intelligent people. And I concur with Burrunjor that the Doctor is not like Superman at all. Hartnell should be the baseline for every Doctor's characterisation.He's a moral man deep down, yes, but he's also devious, self-interested, egotistical, holier-than-thou, indulgent. The main reason the Doctor saves people is because he has the ability to do so, and he'd be a complete monster if he wouldn't under the circumstances he finds himself in. He doesn't go out of his way to be a hero, and he'd really much rather introduce Coca-Cola to the Sea Devils just to see what happens. The Doctor is much closer to Q than to Captain Picard. It may be true that not all goody- goody heroic types are dull, but I simply have no interest in them - they bore me. I do however, agree with you about Hartnell being the baseline for every Doctor's character - the first Doctor, although wise and kind, could also be selfish and irascible - an anti-hero. "The Doctor is much closer to Q than to Captain Picard". I've never watched Star Trek: The Next Generation, but I think I know what you mean. |
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Post by RobFilth on Nov 12, 2023 1:54:47 GMT
I really, REALLY hope the SPOILERS Bi-regeneration rumor is true which states that the Doctor will split into two separate beings when he regenerates with Tennant and Gatwa who gets his own TARDIS being the current Doctors. Surely that will bring an end to the argument that I've been saying about how the Doctors character has been destroyed, when he's now two people and we don't know which is the real one! No I'll bet I'll still get told this is what DW does and you don't the impossibly silly wonderfulness of the Doctor. I mooted the idea of splinter incarnations and parallel dimension Doctors from as back as when the NuWho first came out. It's why we have three 9th incarnations in the form of Richard E Grant, Rowan Atkinson and Ecclesbone. Obviously, McGanns Doctor was passing through parallel dimensions when he regenerated. I tried telling Rani this many, many years ago to explain to him why his beloved Fathead Ecclesbone Doctor was not the definitive 9th Doctor, but his brain was too small to understand the concept. I would love a story called "The Three Ninth Doctors" where Richard E Grant and Rowan Atkinsons 9th Doctors meet the Salford Binman Faketor. |
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Post by iank on Nov 12, 2023 20:27:15 GMT
As someone on another forum has noted, how the f*ck did Heaven Sent get to be number one of all time when it didn't even win the 12th Doctor poll (World Enough did)?
Some serious shenanigans going on with this BS.
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Post by rushy on Nov 12, 2023 23:02:42 GMT
different people being part of a different poll
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