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Post by burrunjor on Nov 23, 2023 22:19:14 GMT
Yes I'll second that. Cushing is certainly one of my absolute faves too. While Ilove the Dalek movies, I asgree that his version of the Doctor leaves much to be desired. Indeed his Van Helsing and Frankenstein portrayals are still I think unparalleled. If he'd played the Doctor in that kind of vein, he might very well have been the best Doc of them all. Funny that his Sherlock is still well respected whereas Tom Baker's interpretation of same was as much criticised as his deservedly celebrated Doctor was praised. Lorrimer Van Helsing basically is the Jon Pertwee Doctor in a number of ways, which is why I LOVE both of those Dracula movies and so wish there had been a tv series with Lorrimer and Jessica fighting vampires, demons and monsters every week. That would have been one of the greatest genre shows of all time. Lorrimer and Jon Pertwee are both an example of the older guy, that the young arrogant punk thinks he can beat up because he is an old timer without realizing that the old time has only been able to get to this stage in life because he is such a badass. Think about it, only the absolute toughest guys are going to be a monster catcher into old age. They will have endured the worst forms of torture, beatings, know every trick they can, so a young punk is going to be lucky to last two seconds against them LOL. Peter Capaldi wanted to bring that to his Doctor, but sadly didn't get too apart from a few scenes. |
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Post by rushy on Nov 23, 2023 22:20:08 GMT
I assume that when people respect his Sherlock, they talk about the TV version, because Cushing in Hammer's "Hound of the Baskervilles" - whilst a very good performance - doesn't really resemble the detective. He's almost hyperactive.
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Post by rushy on Nov 23, 2023 22:26:46 GMT
which is why I LOVE both of those Dracula movies and so wish there had been a tv series Same, but I'm thinking more about "Brides of Dracula" and "Legend of the 7 Golden Vampires" (btw I find it hilarious that Cushing kept showing up to support the franchise in Lee's absence). A period drama series with Cushing fighting monsters from various mythologies would have been quite good, and a nice oppurtunity to shine some light on lesser known legends. Like, how many western audiences would be familiar with details about Chinese vampires? I loved hearing about all that. |
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Post by Bernard Marx on Nov 23, 2023 22:27:03 GMT
The fact that they worked on this for over a year is hilarious. They may have worked for a day, but I think they spent the rest of the year playing snap or strip poker in the editing room. I genuinely burst into hysterics during the Escape segment. Loud and genuine laughter. Jesus Christ... |
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Post by burrunjor on Nov 23, 2023 22:30:08 GMT
That was atrocious. Dreadful Murray Goldesque music drowning out the dialogue throughout the entire story, even just normal scenes of characters talking, constant flashbacks to scenes from 5 mins ago like if someone says "we found the drugs outside the TARDIS" we then cut to that clip, as though the viewers are morons, story jumping all over the place like dialogue of the Doctor and the Daleks mixed in with the Thals in the jungle and Ian and Barbara in the cave, to the point where the plot is hard to follow, new Nick Briggs Dalek voices that sound EXACTLY like all his other Dalek voice, no sense of pace, to the point where within the first ten mins the Daleks have captured them. Dreadful, gawdy and blurred colours, some important lines cut out, like dislike of the unlike, there had to be another way, characters cut down into non entities, Hartnell and Ian's arguments mostly gone, sub plots like Barbara and the Thals romance left out, modern lasers and inappropriate sound effects, colour exposing the limitations of the 60s sets (hence why it should have been left in black and white.) Absolute f*cking travesty. Bendy Cock's editing and colourising skills are on a par with his treatment of Claudia Boleyn. Both a disgrace. The editing when they make their escape from the Daleks is horrific. And when the Daleks attack the Thals there's a misplaced sound effect from one of the Resurrection guns that Mercer and Styles used. Why is that there? Seems like there was no quality control whatsoever. As I suspected, a bunch of immature hacks who thought they'd try and make old Who look "cool" by giving it jumpy editing, new music and vomit inducing colours. These guys are such out of touch twonks. I mean look at Bendy Cock's profile picture. He refers to himself as the chronicler of the youtube generation. That is like something Alan Partridge would say about himself. These guys think it is the early 90s when comedians are being c*nts about DW being slow and boring and are so ashamed of the original they do this. They have 0 idea about even older millennials like me who grew up with the original, never mind the likes of you and Bernard Marx who are the next generation on who have 0 problem with it. It's so funny that all the things they thought applied to the show in the 80s, run by an egomaniac, a creepy, obsessed, cultish fandom that everybody is laughing at because it is so smug, superior, elitist and insular, that ALL applies now about 10000 times more than it did even when JNT was at his absolute worst with the fan conventions. |
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Post by burrunjor on Nov 23, 2023 22:30:48 GMT
which is why I LOVE both of those Dracula movies and so wish there had been a tv series Same, but I'm thinking more about "Brides of Dracula" and "Legend of the 7 Golden Vampires" (btw I find it hilarious that Cushing kept showing up to support the franchise in Lee's absence). A period drama series with Cushing fighting monsters from various mythologies would have been quite good, and a nice oppurtunity to shine some light on lesser known legends. Like, how many western audiences would be familiar with details about Chinese vampires? I loved hearing about all that. I don't disagree with that at all either. BOTH would have been f*cking awesome. |
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Post by rushy on Nov 23, 2023 22:32:35 GMT
Maybe they could've done both at once? A show with two segments, one in the past and one in the present, with Lorrimer using notes from his ancestor?
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Post by Bernard Marx on Nov 23, 2023 22:41:15 GMT
Just watched the brand new Daleks colour version. Immediate reaction? Disappointed! WTF was all that wildly incongruous new music score all about? The original soundtrack is still so chillingly effective so why take it out anyway? I wouldn't have minded a faithful version of same even if in a newly remastered form but not something sounding like a below par Hollywood blockbuster score and especially when it was obviously so inappropriate. Now ok, I didn't mind the colour too much actually - well, bar those blue city floors. But. and here's the real issue, there was simply way too much that was cut out in the edit, rendering far too many scenes pointlessly invalid or incomprehensible. Just imagine the alarming idea that if. after say some future nightmare apocalypse, the only record of Who that existed was this. What an insult to the original series this would represent. Frankly, I thought the Peter Cushing movie Dr.Who and the Daleks did it much better. This re-edit is an even more incomprehensible variation of the Metropolis (1927) re-edits prior to the proper 2010 restoration. Except most of those versions arguably had the excuse of large chunks of the film not having been recovered yet, so it didn't technically constitute as a complete cutting process. This is an active effort to remove context, substance and atmosphere to suit a presumedly less intelligence audience which doesn't exist- not least because those unfamiliar with the classic series will notice the editorial imperfections instantly. I was willing to give it a chance when it started- courtesy of the original score technically still featuring, and I didn't dislike the Dalek Masterplan score inserts either- but after 35 minutes, it completely shits the bed. Dalek dialogue is actively altered, dumbed down and stripped of nuance and/or any attempt to gauge audience inference. Likewise, the escape sequence is one of the most hilariously misjudged things I've ever seen. Like I said before, concerted bombast can work very well in given contexts. This is not one of them, because the material was never intended to benefit that format. Delia Derbyshire would shudder at this. To coin her turn of phrase: "They've tarted it up out of existence!". |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2023 22:47:30 GMT
Even r/DoctorWho are tearing it apart...sheesh
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Post by Bernard Marx on Nov 23, 2023 22:51:41 GMT
They've also gone and inserted Gatwa into the final moments of An Adventure in Space and Time (Smith's digital appearance being the weakest moment of a docudrama I otherwise really enjoyed anyway- the only contribution from Gatiss I can say that about). Right- so that's why Davies wouldn't put it on iPlayer until now.  f*ck me... |
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Post by burrunjor on Nov 23, 2023 22:55:02 GMT
Incidentally Rushy if you are interested in Chinese vampire mythology, have you heard of the Mr Vampire movies?
Basically in the late 70s, early 80s there was a wave of Hong Kong vampire and supernatural movies. They featured a character called Mr Vampire (that was just his nickname, rather confusingly he wasn't a vampire, but fought and killed them.) Mr Vampire was a Taoist priest and the vampires he fought were obviously from Chinese mythology (though he also fought ghosts and demons and witches.) He was played by Lam Ching Ying an amazing actor and martial artist (who incidentally would have made a great Doctor too.) Lam Ching Ying was a student and friend of Bruce Lee, he even had a few small roles in his films and doubled for Mr Han Man in Enter the Dragon, so the fights are top notch.
Now the Mr Vampire movies were inspired by the Hammer films to some extent. The Vampires in them were like the vampires in The Legend of the Golden Vampires, a mix of Eastern myths about Jiang Shi and western myths about vampires.
You see the Jiang Shi myths in China evolved completely independently of our myths about vampires (though both came from the same dark place in the human mind undoubtedly LOL.)
Jiang Shi were the living dead who devoured their victims souls using their claws. They moved by hoping up and down, had hideous, rotting, green faces, were as single minded as animals, never spoke, only roared, and could be repelled by certain herbs like rice, and Buddhist symbols and magics.
In the Golden Vampires both of these are mixed together. The Golden Vamps like the Jiang Shi have rotten faces, never speak, only roar, are vulnerable to Buddhist symbols and can remove people's souls, turning them into those zombie servants who hop up and down when they walk. However like western vamps, they can be killed by a wooden stake through the heart, sunlight, have fangs, drink blood,turn into bats and still have some intelligence and sadism.
Mr Vampire meanwhile similarly mixes them together, but perhaps in a more successful way. Its vampires move by hopping up and down, have rotten faces, are as single minded as animals, only roar, are considerably stronger physically, are vulnerable to eastern symbols, herbs and magics, but they also drink blood rather than souls, have fangs, are vulnerable to sunlight and can be killed by piercing the heart.
Sammo Hung the director of the Mr Vampire movies was a fan of the Hammer movies, and indeed Mr Vampire was even based on Cushing's Van Helsing and referred too as Hong Kong's answer to Peter Cushing in publicity materials over here.
As if that wasn't enough, one of the movies, Vampire vs Vampire is an unofficial sequel to Legend. It features Dracula being revived in China (where he was killed in that movie) by having blood spilled on his remains. Mr Vampire then finds himself out of his depth in dealing with this western vampire, who can think, is immune to all of his Chinese spells and enchantments. Much like the Hammer movies, Dracula gets absolutely pasted at the end LOL. In order to take him down, Mr Vampire stabs a sword in his eye, sets him on fire, blows him up with TNT, fights him in a swamp and uses a heavy set nun (who I believe was played by Lam Ching Ying's fiance?) As a weapon to smash him into a swamp LOL.
Their success inspired a whole slew of supernatural Hong Kong movies that endured throughout the 80s and 90s, it sadly never really caught on over here, though there was some exposure and Lam Ching Ying was going to do an English remake of the first Mr Vampire, before he sadly died of cancer.
Still their legacy lives on in that kung fu vampires with Buffy and Blade became mainstream over here anyway. PS a lot of these Chinese movies inspired western horror films and fantasy too. Xena was completely inspired by the Bride With White Hair and her mentor and first girlfriend was Chinese to reflect this.
If you're interested in tracking them down, these are the recommendations.
Close Encounters of the Spooky Kind (A true classic and the film that started it off. This is not a Mr Vampire film, but Lam Ching Ying is in it as an arsehole cop LOL.)
Mr Vampire
Mr Vampire 2 ( a lot of people hate this as it does feature a plot ripped from ET of a cute, innocent vampire boy, called Wee Okay Boy who becomes friends with some adorable kids. I still love it because there are some badass fight scenes with the vampires parents.)
Mr Vampire 3 (he takes on a crazy witch instead, but it's still a great film.)
Magic Cop
Vampire vs Vampire (Mr Vampire vs the Hammer Dracula. It's not Christopher Lee, but the guy does a great impression of Lee in Dracula Prince of Darkness.)
The Dead and the Deadly (a loose crossover film with Mr Vampire and the lead from Close Encounters. It's a ghost film and completely insane.)
The Heroic Trio (Not a vampire flick, but a supernatural one nonetheless with three of the greatest action leads of all time. )
The Bride with White Hair (Proto Xena, plus the sequel is a classic too.)
If you can't do subtitles you can try the dubbed versions, though I warn you the dubbed version of Mr Vampire I saw was AWFUL. Not just because of the usual stilted voices, but they actually changed the script and had the characters mention that they were aware they were in a film. It was bollocks.
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Post by medicusitic on Nov 23, 2023 23:02:17 GMT
People forget but the 60s daleks were far more nuanced and complex than the 80s and NuWho daleks. They didnt just yell "exterminate" they were cunning and clever. They operated in a logical way for an empire while the new daleks act like rabid dogs mindlessly attacking and then being destroyed. In the original daleks, the daleks are not the aggressors the Doctor and his crew are. I dont have an issue with colouring a story, BUT this story was not one that needed to be colourized. Given the Cushing movies and how the sets were not particularly colourful in the first place. Further there was no reason to cut so much or make any cuts at all. They are dozens of colorizations on youtube and archive.org even has some automatic AI colorization. They dont cut anything from the scene and are just adding color to it (and sometimes cleaning up the image). But that is all that should be done, no cutting, no messing with the audio, just clean up the picture and colour it. If they could not afford to do a seven parter they could have done the Romans, or the Aztecs
Hearing Nicholas Briggs ruining another dalek story like he did Day of the Daleks is unfortunate. He didn't get the voice right in 2005, and he certainly cant match the tone of the 60s daleks. (To clarify I have yet to watch it, but I am basing this off the comments here. I am not going to watch the story if its been butchered).
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Post by burrunjor on Nov 23, 2023 23:07:45 GMT
People forget but the 60s daleks were far more nuanced and complex than the 80s and NuWho daleks. They didnt just yell "exterminate" they were cunning and clever. They operated in a logical way for an empire while the new daleks act like rabid dogs mindlessly attacking and then being destroyed. In the original daleks, the daleks are not the aggressors the Doctor and his crew are. I dont have an issue with colouring a story, BUT this story was not one that needed to be colourized. Given the Cushing movies and how the sets were not particularly colourful in the first place. Further there was no reason to cut so much or make any cuts at all. They are dozens of colorizations on youtube and archive.org even has some automatic AI colorization. They dont cut anything from the scene and are just adding color to it (and sometimes cleaning up the image). But that is all that should be done, no cutting, no messing with the audio, just clean up the picture and colour it. If they could not afford to do a seven parter they could have done the Romans, or the Aztecs
Hearing Nicholas Briggs ruining another dalek story like he did Day of the Daleks is unfortunate. He didn't get the voice right in 2005, and he certainly cant match the tone of the 60s daleks. (To clarify I have yet to watch it, but I am basing this off the comments here. I am not going to watch the story if its been butchered).
He did EXACTLY the same voices from 2005. He hasn't changed a single thing. It felt so jarring seeing his Dalek voice pop up there. |
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Post by Bernard Marx on Nov 23, 2023 23:08:54 GMT
imagine if they found Marco Polo, but only released the RTD edition... Why do I see this as a genuine possibility...?  |
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Post by rushy on Nov 23, 2023 23:10:10 GMT
there's a precedent, after all, with that ridiculous 30-minute version of Marco Polo on the Edge of Destruction DVD
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