Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2023 11:15:27 GMT
Had he been in charge, DW would have been a disaster, but as it is he was a good writer, when others like Letts and Dicks held him back. As Invasion was a rush job however because they thought they were getting great Dinosaurs and had it to quickly replace another story, I feel Dicks and Letts didn't have the time to hold him back as much with this one, and the result is a more overtly preachy story than say Frontier in Space. One point of contention I want to raise. Barry Letts co-wrote The Green Death, a story which is explicitly anti-corporate greed and anti-pollution, and one which completely embraces activist counter-culture. I don't personally view The Silurians- which Hulke wrote- as being more preachy. Quite the contrary: Although it refuses to villify the Silurians or lionise the humans- with the Brigadier's actions clearly framed as morally dubious come the story's conclusion- it never explicitly tells the audience what to think, instead brilliantly explaining the socio-political conditions which create the landscape for inter-special conflict. Conversely, although Letts was an old-school liberal instead of a socialist like Hulke, his stories typically felt more didactic to me. Not that this makes them worse, per se, although none of them rival The Silurians for me. If the story is more explicit in its messaging than Frontier in Space, is that necessarily solely because of Hulke? I could personally see Letts approving of it. Has Letts explicitly said that he wished he'd held Hulke back? This is a fairly good point. Pertwee's even in drag |
|
|
|
Post by burrunjor on Nov 5, 2023 11:31:50 GMT
Had he been in charge, DW would have been a disaster, but as it is he was a good writer, when others like Letts and Dicks held him back. As Invasion was a rush job however because they thought they were getting great Dinosaurs and had it to quickly replace another story, I feel Dicks and Letts didn't have the time to hold him back as much with this one, and the result is a more overtly preachy story than say Frontier in Space. One point of contention I want to raise. Barry Letts co-wrote The Green Death, a story which is explicitly anti-corporate greed and anti-pollution, and one which completely embraces activist counter-culture. I don't personally view The Silurians- which Hulke wrote- as being more preachy. Quite the contrary: Although it refuses to villify the Silurians or lionise the humans- with the Brigadier's actions clearly framed as morally dubious come the story's conclusion- it never explicitly tells the audience what to think, instead brilliantly explaining the socio-political conditions which create the landscape for inter-special conflict. Conversely, although Letts was an old-school liberal instead of a socialist like Hulke, his stories typically felt more didactic to me. Not that this makes them worse, per se, although none of them rival The Silurians for me. If the story is more explicit in its messaging than Frontier in Space, is that necessarily solely because of Hulke? I could personally see Letts approving of it. Has Letts explicitly said that he wished he'd held Hulke back? Well it's possible that it was Terrance Dicks who was able to hold Hulke back as he was very anti political stories, more than he was Letts as Hulke was just a guest writer and Lett's his equal. Again I do like Hulke to be clear. Silurians and Frontier are two of the best 70s stories. To be fair part of why Dinosaurs might have been more sloppy was also because Hulke was rushed in terms of writing it. The whole thing was a rush job because of the effects. Still Hulke definitely I think needed people to hold him back at certain points. To be fair the same is true of all writers. Terrance Dicks would have written the most dated, female companions strapped to rail way lines type of stories had it not been for Barry Letts too. It's funny to think that back then a liberal feminist, a communist and a conservative could all work on a show together. The universe would end if that happened in the current climate. |
|
|
|
Post by Bernard Marx on Nov 5, 2023 13:08:29 GMT
Well it's possible that it was Terrance Dicks who was able to hold Hulke back as he was very anti political stories, more than he was Letts as Hulke was just a guest writer and Lett's his equal. Again I do like Hulke to be clear. Silurians and Frontier are two of the best 70s stories. To be fair part of why Dinosaurs might have been more sloppy was also because Hulke was rushed in terms of writing it. The whole thing was a rush job because of the effects. I'm probably better off clarifying that I actually rate Invasion of the Dinosaurs, crap dinosaur effects aside.  It's an engaging conspiracy thriller with a very absorbing opening episode (even more so in its monochrome version) and a gradually unravelling narrative which kept me constantly engaged. There's padding towards the end, admittedly, but I never found it too irksome. Re- your point about Mike. He saves the Doctor early on because he knows him personally. He can't stomach seeing him die in the moment. Conversely, he's partly aiding and abetting genocidal wankers because, on the one hand, he's more partial to brainwashing courtesy of being mesmerised by the Metebelis Crystal in his last appearance, and on the other hand, because he's only conceptualised the genocide in abstract terms. The people he works with actively obfuscate what they're doing via vague or glamourised language (as with the infamous "golden age"), and people historically- and sadly- feel more empathetic towards people they know instead of those they don't. On an intellectual level, he's misguidedly rationalising what these people are doing (for reasons mentioned earlier), but on an instinctual level, he's not as actively genocidal as the likes of Peter Miles' character, hence his earlier attempt to save the Doctor's life. If the story actively shunned him or portrayed him as downright evil- instead of someone vulnerable to lies and radicalisation (of which the inhabitants of the fake spaceship are also examples)- I personally think it would have been more simplistic. |
|
|
|
Post by burrunjor on Nov 5, 2023 13:17:04 GMT
Well it's possible that it was Terrance Dicks who was able to hold Hulke back as he was very anti political stories, more than he was Letts as Hulke was just a guest writer and Lett's his equal. Again I do like Hulke to be clear. Silurians and Frontier are two of the best 70s stories. To be fair part of why Dinosaurs might have been more sloppy was also because Hulke was rushed in terms of writing it. The whole thing was a rush job because of the effects. I'm probably better off clarifying that I actually rate Invasion of the Dinosaurs, crap dinosaur effects aside. It's an engaging conspiracy thriller with a very absorbing opening episode (even more so in its monochrome version) and a gradually unravelling narrative which kept me constantly engaged. There's padding towards the end, admittedly, but I never found it too irksome. Re- your point about Mike. He saves the Doctor early on because he knows him personally. He can't stomach seeing him die in the moment. Conversely, he's partly aiding and abetting genocidal wankers because, on the one hand, he's more partial to brainwashing courtesy of being mesmerised by the Metebelis Crystal in his last appearance, and on the other hand, because he's only conceptualised the genocide in abstract terms. The people he works with actively obfuscate what they're doing via vague or glamourised language (as with the infamous "golden age"), and people historically- and sadly- feel more empathetic towards people they know instead of those they don't. On an intellectual level, he's misguidedly rationalising what these people are doing (for reasons mentioned earlier), but on an instinctual level, he's not as actively genocidal as the likes of Peter Miles' character, hence his earlier attempt to save the Doctor's life. If the story actively shunned him or portrayed him as downright evil- instead of someone vulnerable to lies and radicalisation (of which the inhabitants of the fake spaceship are also examples)- I personally think it would have been more simplistic. Sorry I disagree that it makes him more human. I can maybe see it that he feels the Doctor dying is more immediate, though even then he must have made his peace with killing the Doctor, and the Brig and Benton and Jo Grant prior to that, so for him to be so against it seems odd. Meanwhile there is nothing really to suggest that he has been brainwashed as a result of the Metebelis Crystal, and also even conceptualizing a genocide is still unspeakable evil. You could use the same argument for Davros in Genesis. Whenever he committed genocide it was from a huge distance away, and when it was people he cared about he was genuinely shocked and tried to reason with his creations. "Those men are scientists they can help you." The same was even true of Goebels who I believed when he visited a concentration camp was actually sick. To me it's too big a crime for them to have the attitude of "Poor Mike" or to just let him get off with it LOL. Whether he was putting his finger on the button or not he was still knowingly taking part in a genocide which is too big a thing to have a previously heroic character do. Again Galloway from Death is a better morally grey character, as his crimes and failings are still within the realms of you can understand where he is coming from. Being willing to kill alien monsters that have attacked his crew to help get the parrinium, not caring about two people who are strangers to him as much as his mission, being willing to sacrifice people, but being decent enough to include himself in that, and his actions paying off in the end. Again to me that's a more interesting character than suddenly wanting to kill every single person in the history of the world. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2023 13:35:43 GMT
I'm probably better off clarifying that I actually rate Invasion of the Dinosaurs, crap dinosaur effects aside. It's an engaging conspiracy thriller with a very absorbing opening episode (even more so in its monochrome version) and a gradually unravelling narrative which kept me constantly engaged. There's padding towards the end, admittedly, but I never found it too irksome. Re- your point about Mike. He saves the Doctor early on because he knows him personally. He can't stomach seeing him die in the moment. Conversely, he's partly aiding and abetting genocidal wankers because, on the one hand, he's more partial to brainwashing courtesy of being mesmerised by the Metebelis Crystal in his last appearance, and on the other hand, because he's only conceptualised the genocide in abstract terms. The people he works with actively obfuscate what they're doing via vague or glamourised language (as with the infamous "golden age"), and people historically- and sadly- feel more empathetic towards people they know instead of those they don't. On an intellectual level, he's misguidedly rationalising what these people are doing (for reasons mentioned earlier), but on an instinctual level, he's not as actively genocidal as the likes of Peter Miles' character, hence his earlier attempt to save the Doctor's life. If the story actively shunned him or portrayed him as downright evil- instead of someone vulnerable to lies and radicalisation (of which the inhabitants of the fake spaceship are also examples)- I personally think it would have been more simplistic. Sorry I disagree that it makes him more human. I can maybe see it that he feels the Doctor dying is more immediate, though even then he must have made his peace with killing the Doctor, and the Brig and Benton and Jo Grant prior to that, so for him to be so against it seems odd. Meanwhile there is nothing really to suggest that he has been brainwashed as a result of the Metebelis Crystal, and also even conceptualizing a genocide is still unspeakable evil. You could use the same argument for Davros in Genesis. Whenever he committed genocide it was from a huge distance away, and when it was people he cared about he was genuinely shocked and tried to reason with his creations. "Those men are scientists they can help you." The same was even true of Goebels who I believed when he visited a concentration camp was actually sick. To me it's too big a crime for them to have the attitude of "Poor Mike" or to just let him get off with it LOL. Whether he was putting his finger on the button or not he was still knowingly taking part in a genocide which is too big a thing to have a previously heroic character do. Again Galloway from Death is a better morally grey character, as his crimes and failings are still within the realms of you can understand where he is coming from. Being willing to kill alien monsters that have attacked his crew to help get the parrinium, not caring about two people who are strangers to him as much as his mission, being willing to sacrifice people, but being decent enough to include himself in that, and his actions paying off in the end. Again to me that's a more interesting character than suddenly wanting to kill every single person in the history of the world. You seem to be in "disagreement mode" at the moment  |
|
|
|
Post by Bernard Marx on Nov 5, 2023 19:40:32 GMT
Meanwhile there is nothing really to suggest that he has been brainwashed as a result of the Metebelis Crystal, and also even conceptualizing a genocide is still unspeakable evil. The Metebelis Crystal isn't brought up in the story, but there is a precedent for Mike being brainwashed. He was left in a comparatively disorientated state in the previous story after the crystal was used to submit him to BOSS' will, with his confidence severely deprived. This informs his decision to join the monastery in Spiders and embrace spiritualism, courtesy of his mind being bloody frazzled. As such, it's not improbable. Extreme, yes, but possible. You could use the same argument for Davros in Genesis. Whenever he committed genocide it was from a huge distance away, and when it was people he cared about he was genuinely shocked and tried to reason with his creations. "Those men are scientists they can help you." The same was even true of Goebels who I believed when he visited a concentration camp was actually sick. The difference being that Davros and Goebbels actively participated in fascist propaganda campaigns prior to being hoist by their own petard. They were actively leading the charge for mass murder, with Goebbels being one of the Holocaust's chief architects. Mike is a reluctant follower instead of an instigator. They aren't the same thing at all. I've not seen the story for a while, but from what I remember, Mike doesn't instigate the plan or even initially conceptualise it. Peter Miles' character and close associates do. Mike, like many of those taken in by extremism in real life via false promises of nostalgia- either because of political vacuums or broader disillusionment- has been taken in by a false premise. Concerned for the wellbeing of the planet, he's been fed the perverse premise that climate change is caused by overpopulation (a Malthusian talking point) and has been told that placidly erasing people from ever existing- instead of actively killing them- will spare them pain in the process of restoring the world to a happier age. It's demonstrably false and warped, but as a propaganda tool, I can see why some altruistic people- especially in vulnerable positions- would be taken in by it. To me it's too big a crime for them to have the attitude of "Poor Mike" or to just let him get off with it LOL. Whether he was putting his finger on the button or not he was still knowingly taking part in a genocide which is too big a thing to have a previously heroic character do. Doesn't he become an isolated quasi-pariah after this story? Again, I've not seen it for a while, but he's not exactly given his privileges back. Likewise, he's superficially heroic in earlier stories but also highly hubristic, either being overtly headstrong or flaunting his credentials for kicks (as seen in Day of the Daleks: "Rank has its privileges"). Put it this way: He's not let off as lightly as Adric was in Four to Doomsday, or in practically every other story where he sides with the villains. |
|
|
|
Post by iank on Nov 5, 2023 21:05:58 GMT
No, it's just not very good. The first ep is quite atmospheric (albeit largely ruined by Blyton's score) but once the Daleks turn up it just turns into another shootathon, and a particularly dull one at that. The story's limitations are exposed by throwing away the one interesting idea (the Daleks being unable to kill) within two minutes.
|
|
|
|
Post by RobFilth on Nov 6, 2023 8:33:59 GMT
Mikes mind has been badly shaken up and vulnerable to manipulation after he was heavily conditioned by BOSS in the earlier story, it is also induced by the Doctor "cleansing" Mikes mind with the Metabelis crystal to free him from Boss's conditioning, the consequence of this is it leaves Mike wide open to future suggestion.
The Target books explicitly go into this as the cause for triggering Mikes radicalisation by the Golden Era nuts.
It's why Mike later turns to Buddhism in "Planet of Spiders" to "sort his mind out" with meditation techniques.
All three stories, Green Death, Invasion of Dinosaurs and Planet of Spiders are thematically linked in much the same way as the E-Space Trilogy or Master Trilogy in the 80's are, in that they document the tragic downfall and partial redemption of Mike Yates.(this redemption theme is also echoed by Pertwees regeneration)
Once again, a very Buddhist subject of Letts to embark upon.
"Invasion of the Dinosaurs" is a far more adult and mature approach toward signposting the dangers of ecofascism than Dicks more cartoony 2-dimensional approach in the later story "Robot".
|
|
|
|
Post by iank on Nov 6, 2023 8:48:54 GMT
We told him last time. For some reason it just won't penetrate.  |
|
|
|
Post by burrunjor on Nov 6, 2023 9:37:58 GMT
We told him last time. For some reason it just won't penetrate. It did, I just think like Invasion of the Dinosaurs, it's rubbish. Sorry Rob but it doesn't matter what is in the novelisation. That was written years later and is unconnected to the tv show. Meanwhile similarly Bernard I'm sorry but Mike whilst he's maybe not on the level of Davros, he absolutely is a Goebels type in that he is one of a very few people working on this project, who knows the truth about it and is working in secret to help carry it out. That makes him more than just a grunt, but someone in the know when it's just a small plan who is their inside man making sure that it all pans out. Also I fail to see how he could ever be swayed to that kind of extremist plan. It's too much. Had it been some alien who was planning to say kill the leaders of humanity and then take their place I could understand, but this is billions of people he's planning to kill. It's genocide. Also whilst he may be a bit of a pariah, even then he should be in jail LOL for trying to wipe out humanity and the Brig acts like it is a shame he had to leave UNIT, saying that was all he could do for him. |
|
|
|
Post by Bernard Marx on Nov 6, 2023 10:49:49 GMT
Sorry Rob but it doesn't matter what is in the novelisation. That was written years later and is unconnected to the tv show. That latter statement isn't true. It was published only two years later (almost exactly), and by Hulke himself, who wrote the original story. They are very closely linked and drafted very closely together. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_the_Dinosaurstardis.fandom.com/wiki/Doctor_Who_and_the_Dinosaur_Invasion_(novelisation)Likewise, Planet of the Spiders already makes it clear that Mike's state of mind has been frazzled since The Green Death. The novelisation just adds extra context which previously wasn't accentuated. Meanwhile similarly Bernard I'm sorry but Mike whilst he's maybe not on the level of Davros, he absolutely is a Goebels type in that he is one of a very few people working on this project, who knows the truth about it and is working in secret to help carry it out. That makes him more than just a grunt, but someone in the know when it's just a small plan who is their inside man making sure that it all pans out. The point I was making is that Mike was the recipient of propaganda, and deliberately sold a pretext to ensure his complicity (that being: "Erasing people from existence by turning back the clock is kinder than actively killing them, as you can't kill a life never lived"). Conversely, Goebbels actively dished it out. He- alongside the other antagonists in Dinosaurs, incidentally- was completely aware of the gravity of what he was doing and required no manipulation to do it, as his convictions were entirely sincere. Mike's weren't, hence his reticence to actively kill someone in person. His morals are confused because he is confused. Goebbels wasn't. These specific distinctions undermine the Goebbels comparison and puts Mike's character arc in Spiders into context. Also I fail to see how he could ever be swayed to that kind of extremist plan. It's too much. Had it been some alien who was planning to say kill the leaders of humanity and then take their place I could understand, but this is billions of people he's planning to kill. It's genocide. Firstly, because of his fractured state of mind, accentuated in the subsequent story and by Hulke himself. Secondly, because he'd be hypothetically reversing time rather than nuking the population on the spot, making the premise easier to sell. Taken collectively, these two factors make Mike malleable to the suggestion. Also whilst he may be a bit of a pariah, even then he should be in jail LOL for trying to wipe out humanity and the Brig acts like it is a shame he had to leave UNIT, saying that was all he could do for him. Because he recognises that Mike was confused. As you've said before, it's largely out of character (even if there are hints of Mike's complacency and self-centredness early in the series) and thus maybe shouldn't be taken completely at face value, as Mike's subsequent story makes clear. The Brigadier actively shunning him without any second thought could have been similarly out of character given their history together. Therefore, I don't see this plot thread as a dealbreaker, especially in the context of his broader arc. |
|
|
|
Post by rushy on Nov 7, 2023 0:30:47 GMT
People don't like Mike's storyline in Dinosaurs because it's well-written, but because it was ballsy to do that to a familiar heroic figure at the time. Plus, it's something of an anomaly in the show.
I believe Purves said he wished Steven had a similar storyline, where the Doctor would come back to the Savage planet years later to find that he's become totally corrupt. Would have been interesting.
|
|
|
|
Post by medicusitic on Dec 3, 2023 8:14:39 GMT
1. The 12th - Calpadi 1/10
2. The 10th - Tennant 0.75/10
3. The 11th - Smith 0.5/10
4. The 13th - Whitaker 0.25/10
5. The 9th - Ecceleston 0.1/10
6. War - John Hurt 0/10
|
|
|
|
Post by Cherry Pepsi Maxil on Jun 14, 2024 11:48:02 GMT
Whittaker ❤
Tennant
The rest
|
|
|
|
Post by Ludders II on Jun 14, 2024 12:05:52 GMT
Whittaker ❤ Tennant The rest You don't rate Smith? |
|
