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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2023 9:28:59 GMT
I guess Yates turning coat is pretty compelling in a show that rarely deals seriously with moral ambiguity
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Post by burrunjor on Nov 3, 2023 10:06:51 GMT
I guess Yates turning coat is pretty compelling in a show that rarely deals seriously with moral ambiguity It's not though. He turns into a genocidal madman who is willing to kill billions, and everybody feels sorry for him! He basically joined the Nazi party. Also him being unable to sacrifice the Doctor to a Tyrannosaurus Rex makes 0 sense given that he would have killed the Doctor and billions anyway using his machine. I also disagree that the show rarely deals with moral ambiguity. The original Dalek story alone is a very grey story, where the main heroes basically have to goad a race of pacifists into waging war, then you have characters like the Controller in Day of the Daleks, funnily enough Galloway in Death to the Daleks, Waterfield in Evil of the Daleks, Lesterson in Power of the Daleks, Inferno, Ambassadors of Death, the Silurians, the general in Frontier in Space who redeems himself at the end after accidentally causing the war through his own prejudice, hell even the Ice Warriors in Curse of Peladon. Sorry but to me this is a myth that classic who had no emotional depth. I think it comes to be honest from 80s Who, specifically the early Davison years, where we had characters like Nyssa shrug off her planets destruction and be laughing a few scenes later in the TARDIS and their response to Adric's death basically being "Oh god I'm so sad.... Well what's for lunch." "What about Adric?" "Who? Oh yeah that Hindu guy or something? What ever happened to him?" Still that wasn't true for earlier series and indeed later series post those early Davison years as seen with Ace. |
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Post by iank on Nov 3, 2023 21:02:53 GMT
Not great examples IMO....
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Post by Spark Doll King on Nov 3, 2023 21:13:12 GMT
I. Don't. Care. Anymore.
I've washed my hands of nuwho and nunuwho.
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Post by burrunjor on Nov 3, 2023 21:47:17 GMT
I. Don't. Care. Anymore. I've washed my hands of nuwho and nunuwho. Why if you don't mind my asking? |
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Post by Spark Doll King on Nov 3, 2023 22:45:28 GMT
I. Don't. Care. Anymore. I've washed my hands of nuwho and nunuwho. Why if you don't mind my asking? Honestly I tried to get back into it but I just can't bring myself to like it. If I'm brutally honest I struggle on and off to watch the classic era, something enjoy, and with nuwho it has more negative or boring aspects then ones I actually like these day. I am almost tempted to say I'm not a proper DW fan anymore, as I almost have to force myself to be interested in any of it. I'd much rather be watching Ultraman, but then have this weird sense of guilt that I'm not enjoying a show I used to love for years. |
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Post by iank on Nov 3, 2023 22:50:35 GMT
I think to a degree the whole thing has been tainted by the cringe.
The only couple I've really enjoyed this year were The Rescue back in Jan, and a couple of Tom's.
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Post by rushy on Nov 3, 2023 22:54:20 GMT
I haven't watched Doctor Who in ages. I'll get back to it later in the year though. When me and my mom are done going through Survivors, I'll show her some more classic serials, starting with Timelash and The Awakening.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2023 22:57:17 GMT
Earthshock is a 0 for me because it contains 80s Cybermen. And also yes I confess to enjoying Love and Monsters lmao, it's a weird quirk of mine, but I'm sure you have at least one favourite story that no one else likes. Well surprisingly, it seems to be Death to the Daleks for me. I don't know how that is as it's a great story full of imagination and cool ideas? How people rate a 6 episode snooze fest like Invasion fo the Dinosaurs, that manages to combine the worst of classic and new who (bad pacing, dreadful effects like old who, and preachy crap with a badly thought out plot designed to lecture the audience, and the Doctor actually lecturing as at the end.) I am honestly baffled? My love for 80s Who comes from a intoxicating love for the style of the decade. I have the same taste in fashion as JNT. Everyone calls him tasteless, but the garish nature of the costumes and set design is quite pleasing to my eyes. As for this place having an 80s Who bent, I like to think this is the definitive place for JNT era fans to come and express their love for the era rather than have to listen to the usual insults that inevitably get hurled our way by elitist fanboys. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2023 22:59:39 GMT
I've watched a lot of Who in the last few months to the point where I'm starting to get a headache just thinking about it.
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Post by iank on Nov 3, 2023 23:50:34 GMT
Earthshock is a 0 for me because it contains 80s Cybermen. And also yes I confess to enjoying Love and Monsters lmao, it's a weird quirk of mine, but I'm sure you have at least one favourite story that no one else likes. Well surprisingly, it seems to be Death to the Daleks for me. I don't know how that is as it's a great story full of imagination and cool ideas? How people rate a 6 episode snooze fest like Invasion fo the Dinosaurs, that manages to combine the worst of classic and new who (bad pacing, dreadful effects like old who, and preachy crap with a badly thought out plot designed to lecture the audience, and the Doctor actually lecturing as at the end.) I am honestly baffled? Because you're wrong. Sorry, I know it hurts, but it's always best to tell people when they're full of it, otherwise how will they know? Dinos is not preachy (in fact it's quite the opposite, literally making preachy types both the bad guys AND gullible idiots, just like in our modern age) and certainly not poorly paced. Death meanwhile is boring as f*ck. |
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Post by rushy on Nov 3, 2023 23:56:14 GMT
but it's always best to tell people when they're full of it People who "say it as it is" are invariably pricks without an ounce of emotional intelligence Burrunjor isn't full of it, you just disagree with him. There's a difference. |
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Post by iank on Nov 4, 2023 0:04:12 GMT
Jesus, someone got out of the wrong side of Russell's bed this morning.
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Post by burrunjor on Nov 5, 2023 9:54:07 GMT
Well surprisingly, it seems to be Death to the Daleks for me. I don't know how that is as it's a great story full of imagination and cool ideas? How people rate a 6 episode snooze fest like Invasion fo the Dinosaurs, that manages to combine the worst of classic and new who (bad pacing, dreadful effects like old who, and preachy crap with a badly thought out plot designed to lecture the audience, and the Doctor actually lecturing as at the end.) I am honestly baffled? Because you're wrong. Sorry, I know it hurts, but it's always best to tell people when they're full of it, otherwise how will they know? Dinos is not preachy (in fact it's quite the opposite, literally making preachy types both the bad guys AND gullible idiots, just like in our modern age) and certainly not poorly paced. Death meanwhile is boring as f*ck. Dino's is preachy. Being against SJWs, is still being preachy. You've just traded one for another. It also literally ends with the Doctor giving a speech about how if we took better care of the planet, this wouldn't happen. You only don't notice it's like Jodie because of Pertwee's gravitas but the principle is the same. Malcolm Hulke was kind of a Paul Cornell. I mean obviously he was a FAR better writer and a genuinely intelligent, political man unlike Cornell who is another example of the morons idea of a clever person. However he was like Cornell in that he felt DW should be political all the time. There is a quote by him that was used by SJWs on their page "SJW Doctor Who fans." To show how old series writers thought like them and honestly it does look like Chibnall's "it should reflect the world of today" garbage. He also submitted some howlers before like a war of the sexes story too. Had he been in charge, DW would have been a disaster, but as it is he was a good writer, when others like Letts and Dicks held him back. As Invasion was a rush job however because they thought they were getting great Dinosaurs and had it to quickly replace another story, I feel Dicks and Letts didn't have the time to hold him back as much with this one, and the result is a more overtly preachy story than say Frontier in Space. Meanwhile Invasion pads a very thin story out over almost two hours and fills it with scenes of Dinosaurs that can't chase, can't fight, can't even die properly so they just wobble from side to side to Pertwee music that makes them seem even more ridiculous. It lets us know Mike is the bad guy very early on and seems to be making it up as it goes along in certain places, hence why Mike saves the Doctor from a Tyrannosaurus because he can't bare to get anyone hurt, yet later is okay with carrying out a genocide. It also pads it out in other silly ways like having the Brig believe the Doctor is a traitor, which he never would, and the whole Golden age bit that gets tedious after a while. Then after six episodes of tedium it ends with a new who style deux machina. Like I said, it combines the worst of the old and new series. Death to the Daleks in contrast is a snug 4 parter that in the first episode builds up a creepy atmosphere on a dead planet, where the monsters can blend into the rocks, the TARDIS dies, and we see quite shocking moments of violence, it also has a stunning model in the Exillon city, genuinely scary moments where Sarah is being tortured by the Exxilons who are brilliantly realised aliens, sets the threat up with the parrnium etc. Far from boring, that's a crammed first episode. It's second part then opens with a cool and unexpected idea of the Daleks working with humans, has lots of cool visuals like primitives dancing around a burning Dalek, then flips it on its head with the Daleks overcoming the power loss and the Exillons who've been terrifying monsters are now victims. Galloway meanwhile unlike Mike who switched to being a Nazi and we're supposed to feel sorry for him, is a genuinely compelling character. One who seems power hungry and a Mavic Chen type candidate, but who ends up being the hero, because his ruthlessness and practical nature means he sometimes can do things that others aren't prepared too. He's kind of a proto Avon. Also Bellal is one of the most adorable aliens in the entire series, and also helps to flesh the Exillons out further as a race like us who can be good or bad. The third episode has some great scenes of the Daleks brutalizing the aliens they have conquered (which is almost always talked about but never shown.) The city of the Exillons also has some creepy moments with the previous Exillons corpses having been left to rot which really freaked me out as a child. Also the head of the Exxilon city melting, and the zombies it creates are very memorable visuals and scared the crap out of me as a child. (Remember I was watching it twenty years later.) It also gives Sarah more of a role in getting the Parrinium to safety, and the final shot of the Exxilon city melting and screaming in pain to the haunting music is surely one of the most memorable endings in either DW series. Honestly Death is perfect. The only flaws are minor. Some of the music is silly, the Dalek killing itself is too hammy even if it makes sense in Dalek lore. Honestly not saying this is for everyone, but I think both of these stories reputations are just received wisdom brought on by usual sci fi snobbishness. Invasion is written by Malcolm Hulke "the thinking man's DW writer" as he was often called by people like Paul Cornell. Furthermore the Dinosaurs are such an embarrassing failure, I think the only way fans can save face is to make out that it is some forgotten gem under the crappy Dinosaurs, with a deep complex meaning, when it's not. Death to the Daleks meanwhile I feel a lot of people go in thinking it will be bad because it's a Pertwee Dalek story and as he always made out he hated them, people think he's phoning it in every Dalek story, when he never did. It's also by Terry Nation whose reputation has dropped (Despite more or less reshaping DW into a fun, imaginative, adventure series as opposed to Newman and Coburn's vision of a more boring, pretentious, plodding sci fi series.) Also the received wisdom is that the Daleks were going nowhere until Genesis, to further hype it up and so again Death has to be done down as a dead end for the Daleks. |
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Post by Bernard Marx on Nov 5, 2023 11:05:13 GMT
Had he been in charge, DW would have been a disaster, but as it is he was a good writer, when others like Letts and Dicks held him back. As Invasion was a rush job however because they thought they were getting great Dinosaurs and had it to quickly replace another story, I feel Dicks and Letts didn't have the time to hold him back as much with this one, and the result is a more overtly preachy story than say Frontier in Space. One point of contention I want to raise. Barry Letts co-wrote The Green Death, a story which is explicitly anti-corporate greed and anti-pollution, and one which completely embraces activist counter-culture. I don't personally view The Silurians- which Hulke wrote- as being more preachy. Quite the contrary: Although it refuses to villify the Silurians or lionise the humans- with the Brigadier's actions clearly framed as morally dubious come the story's conclusion- it never explicitly tells the audience what to think, instead brilliantly explaining the socio-political conditions which create the landscape for inter-special conflict. Conversely, although Letts was an old-school liberal instead of a socialist like Hulke, his stories typically felt more didactic to me. Not that this makes them worse, per se, although none of them rival The Silurians for me. If the story is more explicit in its messaging than Frontier in Space, is that necessarily solely because of Hulke? I could personally see Letts approving of it. Has Letts explicitly said that he wished he'd held Hulke back? |
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