|
|
Post by rushy on Oct 20, 2023 16:53:07 GMT
However that's a plot hole you just have to ignore, like him giving Dayna and Tarrant access to Zen. LOL Paul Darrow was right that Avon would never have done that, but at the end of the day for plot practicality they just had too. In his books, Avon never even mentions the crew. It's quite funny actually. It's like Blake is the only one who mattered to him. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2023 21:32:59 GMT
Far and away Doctor Who; in any given dispute both sides are insufferable, there are nutters round every corner, and again, like what you said about the Sopranos, people taking it way too seriously rather than realising that it's just a camp telly show that comes on every Saturday tea time. Political grandstanders whose armchairs have permanent imprints from the amount of time they're sat in and incoherently postulated from, babbling chancers trying to get a quick buck while idly parroting other people's talking points, rampant sex addicts (who probably don't get any sex) imposing the most outlandish and, ahem, virile frameworks and coating it in a veneer of glib political machination, would-be pundits distracting viewers from the appalling quality of the show with falsified and banal drivel, and I could go on for hours. It's just an eclectic bundle of noisy dickheads, if I'm being frank. It's actually quite embarrassing, I've never encountered a fandom like it.
|
|
|
|
Post by iank on Oct 20, 2023 22:18:08 GMT
I'd agree, save I don't really have much to compare it to. As I've said before, I find fandoms a bit irksome in general, as they're invariably full of people who hate the stuff you love the most and venerate the stuff you find the least interesting. It gets kind of boring and I generally prefer keeping most of my fandoms just for me these days. Hell is other people, as the saying goes.  |
|
|
|
Post by burrunjor on Oct 21, 2023 11:24:49 GMT
Funny all the talk about Star Trek has really put me in the mood for a rewatch of the original series again LOL, which I'll probably do after Lost in Space.
Honestly as much as some Trekkie snobs may crucify me for saying it, Lost in Space is also putting me in the mood as once it's done I want to see more 60s American sci fi cheese.
It is a shame that Trekkies were so hostile to Lost in Space, as honestly those fandoms could have been as close as DW and Blake's 7.
That's pretty much what they are comparable too. Star Trek and DW are obviously the biggest because of their formulas, you can always tell new stories in their universes so naturally they are going to outlast all the others. On paper both seem to be much bigger success stories than Lost in Space or Blake's 7 for that reason alone.
However Blake's 7 and Lost in Space were far edgier. LIS was waaaaay more creative, imaginative and surreal than Star Trek, and B7 was obviously far darker and in some ways more ahead of its time for things like story arcs and anti heroes which became staples of modern tv. (I might add both pioneered anti heroes with Dr Smith and Avon, who were even similar characteers in the first few episodes though Smith obviously became more Rimmer.)
Both also arguably created formulas that other shows would replicate to perhaps an even greater extent (whilst DW and Star Trek were more influential overall.) Both also were actually more popular when put opposite the original DW and Star Trek too, like B7 getting over 9 million for the majority of its series, something DW apart from a few periods struggled to do. (Even the Tennant era didn't have as much mainstream appeal as Blake's 7.)
Also both Star Trek and Lost in Space shared a lot of the same writers, guest actors, location shoots in the desert of California and obviously B7 was created by DW writers and again shared many of the same actors and writers and location shoots of quarry's in the English countryside LOL giving both Blake's 7 and Lost in Space a similar feel to Star Trek and DW.
However DW fans for all their faults, welcomed B7 with open arms, and still praise it as a highlight of the genre, and constantly point out its influence on other shows all the time, and go on about how wonderful a revival would be or how lucky it is to have escaped a 21st century revival depending on your perspective.
Trekkies however not only bashed Lost in Space at every opportunity, but would always gloat about "hahaha our series was revived so many times and nobody watches your show anymore hahahahahahaha2 to further dent its reputation and make Lost in Space a byword even among its own fans for a sci fi series that hasn't stood the test of time and could never be done today.. BTW Lost in Space has had four revivals. Okay the first three weren't much to write home about, but the third was a huge critical and commercial success, that ran as long as the original and now has a new generation of fans.
I'd say it's had the best luck of any old 60s classic after Trek and Who for revivals. The Prisoner had one that tanked (and was utter shit) The Avengers and the Saint similarly had one each that tanked. Randall and Hopkirk had one that was good, but only had a minor cult following, whilst Blake's 7 had one short lived version on audio. Yet even with that and its obvious influence on some of the biggest cult hits like Futurama and Red Dwarf, Lost in Space is now a by word for old relic that is completely forgotten.
Really as cartoonishly dreadful as DW fandom has been in so many ways (with Yak's post being 100 percent spot on the button, particularly about the vile grifters in Who fandom like Mr TARDIS) that is one tiny area we can give it credit for is being nice to other fandoms and series as honestly we could have destroyed Blake's 7's reputation the way Trekkies did to Lost in Space. We could have easily trashed it as too dark and too trying to be edgy (because back then there weren't many sci fi shows like that,) we could have easily gloated about "hahahahahahahaha B7 has never had a revival, ours has, who watches B7 anymore hahahahaha." Thankfully however we didn't and unlike LIS, B7's influence and place is known even to people who've never seen it.
|
|
|
|
Post by rushy on Oct 21, 2023 11:54:56 GMT
Funny all the talk about Star Trek has really put me in the mood for a rewatch of the original series again LOL, which I'll probably do after Lost in Space. If you haven't seen it yet, you owe it to yourself to watch the Star Trek: Enterprise mirror universe episodes, the last time the franchise DARED to feature the original 1960s bridge design before it went 'out of fashion' or whatever. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2023 14:15:09 GMT
Far and away Doctor Who; in any given dispute both sides are insufferable, there are nutters round every corner, and again, like what you said about the Sopranos, people taking it way too seriously rather than realising that it's just a camp telly show that comes on every Saturday tea time. Political grandstanders whose armchairs have permanent imprints from the amount of time they're sat in and incoherently postulated from, babbling chancers trying to get a quick buck while idly parroting other people's talking points, rampant sex addicts (who probably don't get any sex) imposing the most outlandish and, ahem, virile frameworks and coating it in a veneer of glib political machination, would-be pundits distracting viewers from the appalling quality of the show with falsified and banal drivel, and I could go on for hours. It's just an eclectic bundle of noisy dickheads, if I'm being frank. It's actually quite embarrassing, I've never encountered a fandom like it. A perfect example of this would be the whole Stef Coburn fiasco. On one side you have a completely psychotic lunatic with delusions of grandeur, and on the other you have insane leftists who only really care because he holds apparently "transphobic" views. If he were a leftie loony, they'd find a way to justify the withholding of the episode and get behind him. |
|
|
|
Post by burrunjor on Oct 22, 2023 14:28:21 GMT
Far and away Doctor Who; in any given dispute both sides are insufferable, there are nutters round every corner, and again, like what you said about the Sopranos, people taking it way too seriously rather than realising that it's just a camp telly show that comes on every Saturday tea time. Political grandstanders whose armchairs have permanent imprints from the amount of time they're sat in and incoherently postulated from, babbling chancers trying to get a quick buck while idly parroting other people's talking points, rampant sex addicts (who probably don't get any sex) imposing the most outlandish and, ahem, virile frameworks and coating it in a veneer of glib political machination, would-be pundits distracting viewers from the appalling quality of the show with falsified and banal drivel, and I could go on for hours. It's just an eclectic bundle of noisy dickheads, if I'm being frank. It's actually quite embarrassing, I've never encountered a fandom like it. A perfect example of this would be the whole Stef Coburn fiasco. On one side you have a completely psychotic lunatic with delusions of grandeur, and on the other you have insane leftists who only really care because he holds apparently "transphobic" views. If he were a leftie loony, they'd find a way to justify the withholding of the episode and get behind him. Absolutely true for both posts. I've had myself getting in the cross hairs of both sides in the Cobrun debate. As you say he is demented and I've sincerely tried telling him to get help when he goes on about nobody has ever cared for him, his father only gave him violence, because that genuinely does look like he has issues only for him to then insult my mental health issues and use his usual CAPS LOCK rants at me. Meanwhile I also got called transphobic for telling some fan not to tell Stef to kill himself, that his entire life has been worthless, that no one will care when he dies etc. If Stef were smart he would have claimed to have been an SJW and said he was withholding them because Hartnell was a racist and his legacy shouldn't be celebrated because it would offend BLM just to see Mr Tardis' head explode, mind you the sheer amount of shit contained in that head would probably be enough to flood the entire country, so maybe it's best not to make it explode. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2023 20:59:09 GMT
A perfect example of this would be the whole Stef Coburn fiasco. On one side you have a completely psychotic lunatic with delusions of grandeur, and on the other you have insane leftists who only really care because he holds apparently "transphobic" views. If he were a leftie loony, they'd find a way to justify the withholding of the episode and get behind him. Absolutely true for both posts. I've had myself getting in the cross hairs of both sides in the Cobrun debate. As you say he is demented and I've sincerely tried telling him to get help when he goes on about nobody has ever cared for him, his father only gave him violence, because that genuinely does look like he has issues only for him to then insult my mental health issues and use his usual CAPS LOCK rants at me. Meanwhile I also got called transphobic for telling some fan not to tell Stef to kill himself, that his entire life has been worthless, that no one will care when he dies etc. If Stef were smart he would have claimed to have been an SJW and said he was withholding them because Hartnell was a racist and his legacy shouldn't be celebrated because it would offend BLM just to see Mr Tardis' head explode, mind you the sheer amount of shit contained in that head would probably be enough to flood the entire country, so maybe it's best not to make it explode. Nobody has proper arguments these days. They just throw insults at each other and label you an "ist" or a "phobe" when you don't accept their word as law. I reckon all Talons of Weng-Chiang fans will be smeared as horrible racists for daring to enjoy it in the future. |
|
|
|
Post by burrunjor on Oct 23, 2023 9:20:58 GMT
Absolutely true for both posts. I've had myself getting in the cross hairs of both sides in the Cobrun debate. As you say he is demented and I've sincerely tried telling him to get help when he goes on about nobody has ever cared for him, his father only gave him violence, because that genuinely does look like he has issues only for him to then insult my mental health issues and use his usual CAPS LOCK rants at me. Meanwhile I also got called transphobic for telling some fan not to tell Stef to kill himself, that his entire life has been worthless, that no one will care when he dies etc. If Stef were smart he would have claimed to have been an SJW and said he was withholding them because Hartnell was a racist and his legacy shouldn't be celebrated because it would offend BLM just to see Mr Tardis' head explode, mind you the sheer amount of shit contained in that head would probably be enough to flood the entire country, so maybe it's best not to make it explode. Nobody has proper arguments these days. They just throw insults at each other and label you an "ist" or a "phobe" when you don't accept their word as law. I reckon all Talons of Weng-Chiang fans will be smeared as horrible racists for daring to enjoy it in the future. They already are which is ridiculous. I mean I DO think Talons is racist. I didn't use to as I wrote it off as just there weren't that many east Asian actors in the UK at that time, and whilst that is still probably true, I actually agree with Rob that Bob Holmes did seem to have some prejudices against the Chinese which are evident in some of the dialogue beyond simply the white actor playing a China man. I'm not saying that he wanted to exterminate them LOL. He was probably just a man of his time like Hartnell was, but still that aspect did spill out into Talons. However liking the story overall doesn't mean you are a racist as obviously you like it for other reasons. Plenty of things I like such as Edgar Rice Burroughs novels are deeply racist. I might add his racism was far worse than Bob Holmes as again with Holmes I think it was just some old fashioned attitudes he had like Hartnell. He never put much thought into it and wouldn't have say refused to work with a Chinese person, but he did still view them as a whole in a stereotypical way. However Edgar Rice Burrough's DID have a full on racist ideology that he supported. Still again obviously I like Burroughs works in spite of that. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2023 9:37:32 GMT
Nobody has proper arguments these days. They just throw insults at each other and label you an "ist" or a "phobe" when you don't accept their word as law. I reckon all Talons of Weng-Chiang fans will be smeared as horrible racists for daring to enjoy it in the future. They already are which is ridiculous. I mean I DO think Talons is racist. I didn't use to as I wrote it off as just there weren't that many east Asian actors in the UK at that time, and whilst that is still probably true, I actually agree with Rob that Bob Holmes did seem to have some prejudices against the Chinese which are evident in some of the dialogue beyond simply the white actor playing a China man. I'm not saying that he wanted to exterminate them LOL. He was probably just a man of his time like Hartnell was, but still that aspect did spill out into Talons. However liking the story overall doesn't mean you are a racist as obviously you like it for other reasons. Plenty of things I like such as Edgar Rice Burroughs novels are deeply racist. I might add his racism was far worse than Bob Holmes as again with Holmes I think it was just some old fashioned attitudes he had like Hartnell. He never put much thought into it and wouldn't have say refused to work with a Chinese person, but he did still view them as a whole in a stereotypical way. However Edgar Rice Burrough's DID have a full on racist ideology that he supported. Still again obviously I like Burroughs works in spite of that. I do agree about the racism. I can sort of write off some of the things said by the actual Victorian era characters, but the Doctor does make the odd comment about epicanthal eyes and Leela calls Chang "Yellow" which is unfortunate. It is fair to accept that the racism is there rather than pretend it isn't. That said, it doesn't put me off the story. I'd rather it wasn't there obviously, but the story for me is just so damn good and as I said I love Victorian stuff. |
|
|
|
Post by iank on Oct 23, 2023 20:54:38 GMT
I think it's a bit of a leap to suggest Holmes was racist. Talons is clearly written in the style of a Fu Manchu story and to reflect the attitudes of the Victorian era. It's a bit of a jump - dare I say it, a bit of a woketurd leap of logic - to suggest the writer is racist based on doing an accurate job of that...
|
|
|
|
Post by burrunjor on Oct 28, 2023 9:52:08 GMT
I think it's a bit of a leap to suggest Holmes was racist. Talons is clearly written in the style of a Fu Manchu story and to reflect the attitudes of the Victorian era. It's a bit of a jump - dare I say it, a bit of a woketurd leap of logic - to suggest the writer is racist based on doing an accurate job of that... That's similar to Jon Blum's defense of RTD using Ming Mongs sorry. Blum was saying RTD was just calling them that in reference to a crap Victoria Wood sketch. In both cases if you're just copying something racist, or bigoted from a previous work then yeah that's still bigoted and racist. It's not like say Blazing Saddles where they copied it to rip the piss out of it. Trying to outright replicate less enlightened phrases whether that's comments about slanty eyes or ming mongs isn't something you should do, or something you need to do if you want to recapture the Victorian gothic horror tradition. Dozens of Hammer movies and even New Who managed it without having to replicate those old views. Again clearly in Bob Holmes case he just didn't care LOL which as I said most likely reflects his old fashioned views, but it doesn't make him like Burroughs who was a full on eugenicist and made that the focus of some stories sadly. Even ones I like for other reasons. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2023 10:02:25 GMT
I find it curious that people focus on a racism from 1977 serial, but they never mention the fact that a couple of years ago the TV show Class had a character make an ill informed comment about white people always having things work out for them and getting a happy ending which is not only obnoxious but is completely dismissive of the issues that white people actually face. I realize that minorities do face a lot and I would never suggest that as a white man I can begin to imagine how hard it must be for some, but to make out that we all get a happy ending is f*cking bullshit. It also shows very little empathy or understanding from the character who said it.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2023 10:13:44 GMT
"I've got terminal cancer and will be dead within weeks"
Kid from Class: "Yes, but you won't be suffering for very long. Typical white person happy ending"
|
|
|
|
Post by burrunjor on Oct 28, 2023 11:33:27 GMT
I find it curious that people focus on a racism from 1977 serial, but they never mention the fact that a couple of years ago the TV show Class had a character make an ill informed comment about white people always having things work out for them and getting a happy ending which is not only obnoxious but is completely dismissive of the issues that white people actually face. I realize that minorities do face a lot and I would never suggest that as a white man I can begin to imagine how hard it must be for some, but to make out that we all get a happy ending is f*cking bullshit. It also shows very little empathy or understanding from the character who said it. Haha yes. I did bring that up though A LOT. It's no wonder that series tanked. Yeah smart idea in a majority white country to insult white people, even when they've been abused by their parents as having a white person happy ending. Honestly I find it offensive not just for the obvious reasons, but for trying to stir shit up between white people and black people, just to stroke the writers ego in showing how right on and edgy they are. Meanwhile Red Dwarf had a 50 percent black cast 30 years earlier and never even mentioned it, and had Lister a black man show sympathy to a white guy Rimmer, for having abusive parents, even though he normally can't stand Rimmer. Utterly shameful and a sign that DW was on its way out. Maybe if it didn't do stuff like this, it would have made more than four seasons in the last 9 years. Yeah thank god JNT who got it taken off for one year, but still made 9 seasons in 9 years with much less support from the Beeb, isn't around to ruin it. |
|
