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Post by ClockworkOcean on May 20, 2022 15:20:04 GMT
It's still NuWho so obviously it has many draw backs including one of the weakest resolutions in the series. What pisses me off about the resolution isn't just that it's a deus ex machina, but that it uses a deus ex machina to justify an absolutely terrible decision on the Doctor's part. If Rose hadn't turned into a god and killed all of the Daleks with magic fairy dust, they would have subjected most of humanity to a fate far worse than death and potentially gone on to dominate the entire universe. Activating the delta wave would absolutely have been the correct moral calculation, and there was nothing admirable about his failure to do it. Day of the Doctor does the same thing, telling us that the Doctor was wrong to destroy Gallifrey because the Time Lords could have just got several instances of the same TARDIS together, whizzed around for a couple of minutes and ended the war with zero bloodshed... which for reasons unknown never occurred to any of them. A recurring problem in NuWho and Fitzroy-led spinoff material is that it treats the "Do I have the right?" scene in Genesis as an unimpeachable moral lesson when it was clearly intended to be much more ambiguous than that. The arc that began in Genesis and ended in Remembrance concluded with the Doctor destroying Skaro and talking the last surviving Dalek into killing itself. After centuries of dealing with them, he realised that he'd been wrong to allow such an incurably destructive blight on the universe continue to exist, so he rectified his mistake, displaying no signs of guilt because he had nothing to feel guilty about. I dread to think how RTD or Moffat would resolve Remembrance if they were asked to rewrite it. |
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Post by Brian MK.II on May 20, 2022 15:34:02 GMT
Parting Of The Ways has one of the few times NuWho's Daleks feel like a genuine threat and aren't played for a laugh. I know people regard Eccleston as the most OOC portrayal of the role just ahead of Whittaker and whilst I agree on some level, I do genuinely think he shone in his Dalek episodes bar the odd RTDism and helped convey them as a threat.
I would've gone for the Pandorica finale from Series 5 as I recall thinking it was great at the time, however in hindsight, it marks the beginning of Muffat's ascension up his arse with the Daleks, Cybermen and other main villains becoming overused wallpaper , the whole Fez joke being the prototype of Smith being forced to transform into Tennant 2.0. and the big reset button being an sign that the DEM endings that RTD was fond of pulling out were still going to be around.
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Post by rushy on May 20, 2022 16:03:57 GMT
If Rose hadn't turned into a god and killed all of the Daleks with magic fairy dust, they would have subjected most of humanity to a fate far worse than death and potentially gone on to dominate the entire universe. Activating the delta wave would absolutely have been the correct moral calculation, and there was nothing admirable about his failure to do it. Day of the Doctor does the same thing, telling us that the Doctor was wrong to destroy Gallifrey because the Time Lords could have just got several instances of the same TARDIS together, whizzed around for a couple of minutes and ended the war with zero bloodshed... which for reasons unknown never occurred to any of them. The way I interpreted it is that the Doctor doesn't know for sure that the Daleks would destroy Earth and the universe. It's a 99% possibility, but something could still intervene (and it does). So he decided to spare his soul from the guilt of wiping out humanity by leaving it up to fate. He removes himself from the equation and can tell himself in his final moments that he is not a murderer because he never asked for the Daleks to attack, and will never know whether their invasion succeeds. It's ethically a no-win scenario, and I'm not surprised the Doctor gave up given that when this story was made, he supposedly already had to do this sort of thing in the Time War and chose to wipe out the Daleks and Time Lords together. Having to go through it again with a race he loves even more is just too much for him. If he destroyed Earth, I can't imagine him wanting to go on. So it's a choice between literal death and spiritual death, and he goes with the literal one. Maybe humanity will somehow survive this way. He'd rather die hoping than live mourning. |
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Post by burrunjor on May 20, 2022 16:48:25 GMT
It's still NuWho so obviously it has many draw backs including one of the weakest resolutions in the series. What pisses me off about the resolution isn't just that it's a deus ex machina, but that it uses a deus ex machina to justify an absolutely terrible decision on the Doctor's part. If Rose hadn't turned into a god and killed all of the Daleks with magic fairy dust, they would have subjected most of humanity to a fate far worse than death and potentially gone on to dominate the entire universe. Activating the delta wave would absolutely have been the correct moral calculation, and there was nothing admirable about his failure to do it. Day of the Doctor does the same thing, telling us that the Doctor was wrong to destroy Gallifrey because the Time Lords could have just got several instances of the same TARDIS together, whizzed around for a couple of minutes and ended the war with zero bloodshed... which for reasons unknown never occurred to any of them. A recurring problem in NuWho and Fitzroy-led spinoff material is that it treats the "Do I have the right?" scene in Genesis as an unimpeachable moral lesson when it was clearly intended to be much more ambiguous than that. The arc that began in Genesis and ended in Remembrance concluded with the Doctor destroying Skaro and talking the last surviving Dalek into killing itself. After centuries of dealing with them, he realised that he'd been wrong to allow such an incurably destructive blight on the universe continue to exist, so he rectified his mistake, displaying no signs of guilt because he had nothing to feel guilty about. I dread to think how RTD or Moffat would resolve Remembrance if they were asked to rewrite it. I agree with all of that largely, but I will say in the 50ths defence, the reason the Doctors were able to do it was because they all had centuries to piss off and do a bit of the calculations. IE the Matt Doctor visits Hartnell who does a bit of it, then forgets as the time line is out of syncy, then he visits Troughton, lets him do a bit of it, and so on up to and including Capaldi. They all then meet up and do it together after having taken centuries alone, and undisturbed to do their bit. The Time Lords meanwhile were in the middle of a war with all TARDIS' on deck and the area being locked so nothing could get out. I actually quite liked the resolution in Day. It was a bit fitting to the Doctors character by having him win by cheating and not playing by the rules, but not completely breaking them either. That's what the Doctor has always done, and it's a much better way to show why he is special compared to other Time Lords than making him a god. As for the original question Maxil, I'm going to say Army of Ghosts/Doomsday. It doesn't work so much as a DW story. The romance is obviously out of character, but it's a good bit of tv in its own right. Alternate universes is always something that has fascinated me and the Daleks are brilliant in it. It's just a shame it f*cks up the Cybermen so bad. Still at least they kill Tracy Ann Oberman, that's one point in their favour. After that it would probably be the season 10 finale. Despite the appearance of Missy, it can't be denied that it does have a good plot, some genuinely nightmarish moments, a stunning cliff hanger, and John Simm at his absolute best. In that episode Simm is playing the Master like the original, apart from some crappy moments and he is all the better for it. The Name of the Doctor is also pretty good. Again the GI is out of character, but it's still a good resolution to that arc and the cliff hanger was thrilling. The season three finale meanwhile, the first two parts of it are excellent. Utopia is among the best things RTD has ever written for DW, but sadly it falls apart spectacularly in the third episode. Overall though I'd rate the season 3 finale as maybe a mixed bag because I'd hate to discount the excellent first two parts. Season 4 meanwhile at least has lots going on and an absolutely brilliant depiction of Davros. There is no question that out of all the classic era foes he was handled the best in Stolen Earth/Journey's End. They got the perfect actor to play him, his characterisation was point on, they even continued his story arc from the original series and made him menacing and monstrous. Just a shame they couldn't have done all the villains that way. Poor Master never got a chance. Season 5 similarly has a brilliant first part, but kind of loses momentum. Season 6's finale is a garbled mess, whilst season 8 and 9's are among the worst episodes ever made. Didn't even watch the s11 finale, whilst 12 is the worst thing ever in DW. 13 meanwhile I did watch it, but I can barely remember it. All I remember is the bit where Jodie is being tortured and she does pain acting so bad it makes Jon Pertwee's pain acting look passable LOL. I didn't even know she was in pain until she casually mentioned be tortured. It's funny I've lost my crush on Jodie now. I think it was after watching her play the Doctor again. That undid all the romantic feelings I got for her based on her singing LOL. I'm sure she is utterly devastated and will never love again.  |
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Post by iank on May 21, 2022 20:54:59 GMT
The season 5 one by miles.
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2022 21:11:08 GMT
The season 5 one by miles. I loved the Pandorica Opens when it aired, but I remember being disappointed by The Big Bang. |
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Post by iank on May 21, 2022 21:51:56 GMT
I like TBB. I like how the finale is just a small group of characters running around in a museum, with one Dalek. It's such a breath of fresh air from RTD's overblown messes.
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2022 22:41:36 GMT
It's been so long now that it's hard for me to remember. I think I'll go with Army of Ghosts/Doomsday.
Despite the usual nuwho crap and the overpowered Daleks slaughtering the Cybermen on mass, at least the way the story is wrapped up is at least on some way logical.
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Post by zarius on May 24, 2022 9:03:42 GMT
The Big Bang definitely feels like a coda to all the big, wild important stuff and keeps things simple and focused. River's likeability pretty much dries up after this one.
I actually like a lot of Wedding of River Song too looking back on it. The most 'focused' a rather unfocused series six got post-Good Man
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2022 11:18:32 GMT
I did enjoy the first part of the Series 10 finale. I wasn't so keen on the second part, though. Most NuWho finales have a decent or so-so opening episode but often have a piss poor conclusion.
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Post by burrunjor on May 24, 2022 12:21:40 GMT
I did enjoy the first part of the Series 10 finale. I wasn't so keen on the second part, though. Most NuWho finales have a decent or so-so opening episode but often have a piss poor conclusion. I did love Capaldi's showdown with the Cybermen. Would actually have made a brilliant ending for the New Who canon, just having him look up as they are dead saying "he'd always hoped there would be stars." After that they should have rested it and started with a new 9th Doctor, than the tangled mess we are in now with billions of pre Hartnell docs and a new Ten Inch Doctor. (The latest rumours suggest that Tennant really is going to be the 14th. Honestly if this were a few years earlier, that would be as bad as a female Doctor for me in f*cking up the balance of the different doctors.) |
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2023 21:41:17 GMT
I reckon someone should do a fan edit of Parting and cut out all of the scenes involving Rose on Earth. The new cut will focus entirely on the likeable heroes on the station and their battle against the Daleks. Every scene with Lynda should be cropped so she is the only one on screen as well. Eccleston's face should also be digitally replaced with McGann's and have a world class impressionist dub over Eccleston's lines with McGann. Finally, the footage should add more Vaseline filters just to make it look more like a 2005 production.
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Post by iank on May 21, 2023 21:52:31 GMT
It would certainly be less embarrassing.
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Post by rushy on May 22, 2023 1:19:22 GMT
I'm just gonna quickly rank them:
1) Bad Wolf / Parting of the Ways - Love it, very dramatic exit for Eccleston's Doctor, ties into his previous episodes very well. Excellent use of the Daleks.
2) Utopia / The Sound of Drums / Last of the Time Lords - John Simm as the Master is one of my favourite childhood villains so I'll always have a soft spot for this. I think people are too hard on the Jesus-Doctor thing. I wish it had been better explained how Martha knew what to do, but that's the only problem I have with it. It's awesome to see him regain his strength by literally using the strength of the people overcoming oppression. Tennant and Simm are still the most iconic Doctor-Master pairing since Delgado and Pertwee.
3) World Enough and Time / The Doctor Falls - The second part is a bit too saccharine and Time-of-the-Doctor-y (why is half of Capaldi's dialogue reused lines?), but it's otherwise a really solid and creepy Cyberman story. Love the use of the black hole. Love seeing Simm back. Missy's redemption is half-baked.
4) The Pandorica Opens / The Big Bang - Loved it as a kid (it's the first story I ever saw!), hasn't aged super well for me though. The pacing is very off as is the case in most Moffat stories. The resolution of Amy literally wishing the Doctor back into existence with no context is ridiculous. I did love the Doctor's goodbye to young Amelia though. That felt like a goodbye to the whole series if I'm honest and I wouldn't have minded if it ended there.
5) The Stolen Earth / Journey's End - Excellent return for Davros, the fan service and crossovers are fun. Lots of great moments. A bit overcooked though. Maybe Davros returning shouldn't have been in RTD's celebration of his own era and just his own story?
6) Army of Ghosts / Doomsday - Pretty forgettable aside from the Dalek-Cyberman banter. I wasn't super invested in Ten and Rose so their drama didn't do much for me.
7) Heaven Sent / Hell Bent - You go from a really sincere, artful and creative depiction of grief to an episode that just exists to shit on the concept of Gallifrey. No thanks.
8) The Name of the Doctor - Woeful waste of the Great Intelligence. I guess it's cool to see all the archive footage used in a new context, but it wasn't nearly as inventive as it wanted to be.
9) The Wedding of River Song - An entire episode that builds up to a cheat. Not my thing.
10) Dark Water / Death in Heaven - f*ck this piece of shit, worst story of Doctor Who ever
(haven't fully seen any of the Whittaker finales, although "Timeless Children" was a hilariously inept episode)
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Post by rushy on May 22, 2023 1:21:54 GMT
The arc that began in Genesis and ended in Remembrance concluded with the Doctor destroying Skaro and talking the last surviving Dalek into killing itself. After centuries of dealing with them, he realised that he'd been wrong to allow such an incurably destructive blight on the universe continue to exist, so he rectified his mistake, displaying no signs of guilt because he had nothing to feel guilty about. This isn't an arc. This is just Ben Aaronovitch having a different mindset to Terry Nation. |
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