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Post by RobFilth on Jul 18, 2021 7:12:02 GMT
Then there is the fact that Mike is turned into a genocidal maniac that want's to slaughter billions and the Doctor feels sorry for him! I found that utterly unconvincing and I know from experience, as when we had a guy named Mike who joined a bad cult we didn't go easy on him LOL. I would have thought that comparison would've made "Dinosaurs" more convincing myself. I reckon all of the Platypus cult sit crosslegged around a mat chanting "Om Noncey Bona-Parte-Nam-Blah!" in front of chief guru Abbot Cho-Je Cutrone in the story "Planet of the NAMBLAs" myself.(although far from redeeming himself, Mike digs an even bigger hole to jump into instead) Considering dinosaur effects were generally shit anyway in the 70's(just check out Land that Time Forgot), Doctor Who wasn't really THAT behind the curve. The T-Rex looked like the Chewits monster. |
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Post by burrunjor on Jul 18, 2021 7:42:39 GMT
Then there is the fact that Mike is turned into a genocidal maniac that want's to slaughter billions and the Doctor feels sorry for him! I found that utterly unconvincing and I know from experience, as when we had a guy named Mike who joined a bad cult we didn't go easy on him LOL. I would have thought that comparison would've made "Dinosaurs" more convincing myself. I reckon all of the Platypus cult sit crosslegged around a mat chanting "Om Noncey Bonaparte-Mar!" in front of chief guru Abbot Cho-Je Cutrone in the story "Planet of the NAMBLAs" myself. Considering dinosaur effects were generally shit anyway in the 70's(just check out Land that Time Forgot), Doctor Who wasn't really THAT behind the curve. The T-Rex looked like the Chewits monster. I'm a Di, Di, Di, Di Dinosaur. I'm Di, Di, Di Di, Dinosaur. Well I'm an egg laying Di, Di, Di, Di, Dinosaur. To be fair to the guys in Invasion of the Dinosaurs nonces it seems weren't included among the elite. Also Dinosaur effects were not shit in the 70s. Ray Harryhausen was still around then, as was Jim Danforth. (The effects in Planet of the Dinosaurs a 70s movie still hold up.) Whilst King Kong was about 40 years earlier. Also in no way are the Dinos in Land That Time Forgot as bad as the ones in Doctor Who. The key to good effects is if they look alive. Sure the Dinos in King Kong may look outdated, but at least that Brontosaurus looks alive. At least it can bend its neck, run and bite people. The T-Rex in Invasion in contrast literally can't do anything LOL. It just wobbles from side to side and roars. It can't run, it can't bite. The one scene where they do try and make it do something, fight a brontosaurus is hilariously shit. None of the fights in Land That Time Forgot were as bad as that. |
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Post by iank on Jul 18, 2021 7:48:55 GMT
Really? Bad fx make a bad story now?
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Post by burrunjor on Jul 18, 2021 8:02:38 GMT
Really? Bad fx make a bad story now? No, but it's just when people use the bad music against Death that it becomes "Hello have you seen what's in this story?" Also the effects in Dinosaurs are unquestionably the worst in all of DW. Plus as I've pointed out the rest of the story is shit too. The Brig is made into an idiot, the plot is stretched, the villains plan makes no sense, it's an unoriginal idea of aliens take over London, but with nothing new brought to the table, the politics is too in your face and preachy, and worst of all Mike is retconed into a Nazi. His plan is to bring about another holocaust. If you want to get technical he wanted to kill more people than Hitler! He was going to exterminate EVERYONE but a few hundred chosen people. Though even then from the looks of things his chosen group may have had racial implications like Hitler too, as there were only white able bodied people among the elite. Yet in spite of this the story still asks us to sympathise with Mike? The Doctor even says "poor Mike." And we're meant to think that it's a shame he was forced to quit. LOL I'd have locked him up for life like any former Nazi war criminal. To be clear I'm not doing a Paul Cornell and saying "oh the story is pro Nazi" or anything like that LOL. Obviously not, I just think it's sloppy writing. Clearly they wanted to show us how even good people can be taken in by bad crowds and that's fine, but the bad crowd they had Mike fall into was too bad. It wasn't as though this was a group who wanted to establish a better world for everyone, and Mike learned how far they were willing to go. They were planning a holocaust and Mike knew that and joined him for that reason. Quite frankly I have more sympathy for the guy in Remembrance of the Daleks that unknowingly joined the Renengade Dalek faction. Both he and Mike were awful people, but at least when he joined a racist, elitest group that wanted to keep the undesirables out, he didn't want to exterminate all of them LOL. |
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Post by Bernard Marx on Jul 18, 2021 8:38:00 GMT
Really? Bad fx make a bad story now? Quite frankly I have more sympathy for the guy in Remembrance of the Daleks that unknowingly joined the Renengade Dalek faction. Both he and Mike were awful people, but at least when he joined a racist, elitest group that wanted to keep the undesirables out, he didn't want to exterminate all of them LOL. As it happens, I believe he was called Mike as well.  |
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Post by burrunjor on Jul 18, 2021 8:49:19 GMT
LOL so he was! God what is it with guys named Mike who are associated with DW and end up following dodgy cults? Mr Ratcliff was more charismatic than Cutrone though, so once again I think the Mike in Remembrance comes out better. The T-Rex was more charismatic than Cutrone. If only Cutrone couldn't do anything like the T-Rex.
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Post by Bernard Marx on Jul 18, 2021 8:59:09 GMT
I would have thought that comparison would've made "Dinosaurs" more convincing myself. I reckon all of the Platypus cult sit crosslegged around a mat chanting "Om Noncey Bonaparte-Mar!" in front of chief guru Abbot Cho-Je Cutrone in the story "Planet of the NAMBLAs" myself. Considering dinosaur effects were generally shit anyway in the 70's(just check out Land that Time Forgot), Doctor Who wasn't really THAT behind the curve. The T-Rex looked like the Chewits monster. I'm a Di, Di, Di, Di Dinosaur. I'm Di, Di, Di Di, Dinosaur. Well I'm an egg laying Di, Di, Di, Di, Dinosaur. To be fair to the guys in Invasion of the Dinosaurs nonces it seems weren't included among the elite. Also Dinosaur effects were not shit in the 70s. Ray Harryhausen was still around then, as was Jim Danforth. (The effects in Planet of the Dinosaurs a 70s movie still hold up.) Whilst King Kong was about 40 years earlier. Also in no way are the Dinos in Land That Time Forgot as bad as the ones in Doctor Who. The key to good effects is if they look alive. Sure the Dinos in King Kong may look outdated, but at least that Brontosaurus looks alive. At least it can bend its neck, run and bite people. The T-Rex in Invasion in contrast literally can't do anything LOL. It just wobbles from side to side and roars. It can't run, it can't bite. The one scene where they do try and make it do something, fight a brontosaurus is hilariously shit. None of the fights in Land That Time Forgot were as bad as that. I accept a lot of your points, but there is a distinction to be made between a highly budgeted cinematic production as with King Kong (irrespective of when it was made) and a measly budgeted 70s BBC production. Citizen Kane, made in 1941, is much more technically impressive than any BBC TV production during the era courtesy of the budget and the accessibility, and the fact that TV and cinema were very different mediums at the time, as opposed to now where they coalesce more overtly. I wouldn't compare it to feature films, otherwise Doctor Who is always bound to struggle (unless the story is genuinely brilliantly made, ala Web of Fear, but these were the exceptions as opposed to the norm). |
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Post by burrunjor on Jul 18, 2021 9:12:07 GMT
Well I agree that it's not normally fair to compare low budget tv shows with big budget films, but again I was more just countering the point that Dinosaur effects in general were crap, as there were some inspired effects at that time. Also remember that a lot of Harryhausen films were B-Movies.
Gwangi was a B-movie and its Dinosaurs look great.
Also it is worth mentioning that the Drashiggs were brilliantly done. Whilst they aren't as smooth as say Gwangi, they still look decent enough, still seem alive and look genuinely frightening. I was scared of them as a child (in the 90s remember 20 years on.) I also remember showing them to a friend of mine as a child and he was shit scared of them too.
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Post by Bernard Marx on Jul 18, 2021 9:13:17 GMT
LOL so he was! God what is it with guys named Mike who are associated with DW and end up following dodgy cults? Mr Ratcliff was more charismatic than Cutrone though, so once again I think the Mike in Remembrance comes out better. The T-Rex was more charismatic than Cutrone. If only Cutrone couldn't do anything like the T-Rex. Ah, you never know. There could be a line somewhere in Invasion of the Dinosaurs where the main villain witters on about everybody outside his respective circle suffering from "historical amnesia" or something- it makes sense within the context of the narrative too.  |
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Post by burrunjor on Jul 18, 2021 9:21:17 GMT
LOL so he was! God what is it with guys named Mike who are associated with DW and end up following dodgy cults? Mr Ratcliff was more charismatic than Cutrone though, so once again I think the Mike in Remembrance comes out better. The T-Rex was more charismatic than Cutrone. If only Cutrone couldn't do anything like the T-Rex. Ah, you never know. There could be a line somewhere in Invasion of the Dinosaurs where the main villain witters on about everybody outside his respective circle suffering from "historical amnesia" or something- it makes sense within the context of the narrative too. I've also heard bonapartism put forward as a reason for the Dinosaurs extinction. Or as the Germans call them Dinosaurier. I'll have to ask my PHD supervisor though. |
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Post by Bernard Marx on Jul 18, 2021 10:14:07 GMT
Getting back to the prior point: I think I'm one of the few here who quite enjoys both Invasion of the Dinosaurs and Death to the Daleks (to varying degrees). The one season 11 story I don't like much at all is Monster of Peladon. It's not appallingly written per se (though it's hardly noteworthy either), but it's also one of the dullest six parters ever made.
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Post by Monster X on Jul 18, 2021 10:55:53 GMT
Getting back to the prior point: I think I'm one of the few here who quite enjoys both Invasion of the Dinosaurs and Death to the Daleks (to varying degrees). The one season 11 story I don't like much at all is Monster of Peladon. It's not appallingly written per se (though it's hardly noteworthy either), but it's also one of the dullest six parters ever made.
I like 'em both. "The one season 11 story I don't like much at all is Monster of Peladon."And again, I agree. Although I prefer Sarah to Jo, I'd much rather watch Curse than Monster. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2021 11:46:25 GMT
I would have thought that comparison would've made "Dinosaurs" more convincing myself. I reckon all of the Platypus cult sit crosslegged around a mat chanting "Om Noncey Bona-Parte-Nam-Blah!" in front of chief guru Abbot Cho-Je Cutrone in the story "Planet of the NAMBLAs" myself.(although far from redeeming himself, Mike digs an even bigger hole to jump into instead) Considering dinosaur effects were generally shit anyway in the 70's(just check out Land that Time Forgot), Doctor Who wasn't really THAT behind the curve. The T-Rex looked like the Chewits monster. I've not had a packet of Chewits for years. |
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Post by RobFilth on Jul 18, 2021 12:14:06 GMT
Also in no way are the Dinos in Land That Time Forgot as bad as the ones in Doctor Who. They're not exactly brilliant either and Land that Time Forgot had a feature film budget, Doctor Who had a tv budget less than a tenth the size! The key to good effects is if they look alive. Sure the Dinos in King Kong may look outdated, but at least that Brontosaurus looks alive. At least it can bend its neck, run and bite people. The T-Rex in Invasion in contrast literally can't do anything LOL. It just wobbles from side to side and roars. It can't run, it can't bite. Get out of it! It smashes it's head through brick walls and has hanger lights bounce off it doesn't it? What more do you want, an all singing tap dance routine with top hat and cane?  The one scene where they do try and make it do something, fight a brontosaurus is hilariously shit. None of the fights in Land That Time Forgot were as bad as that. I dunno what you mean, that fight with the bronto as they're toppling from side to side trying to desperately wrestle each other other is epic! Just listen to Dudley Simpsons music for proof! An exciting on the edge of your seat epic battle on par with Primeval I'd say! |
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Post by RobFilth on Jul 18, 2021 12:19:17 GMT
Yet in spite of this the story still asks us to sympathise with Mike? The Doctor even says "poor Mike." And we're meant to think that it's a shame he was forced to quit. LOL I'd have locked him up for life like any former Nazi war criminal. To be clear I'm not doing a Paul Cornell and saying "oh the story is pro Nazi" or anything like that LOL. Obviously not, I just think it's sloppy writing. Clearly they wanted to show us how even good people can be taken in by bad crowds and that's fine, but the bad crowd they had Mike fall into was too bad. It wasn't as though this was a group who wanted to establish a better world for everyone, and Mike learned how far they were willing to go. They were planning a holocaust and Mike knew that and joined him for that reason. Quite frankly I have more sympathy for the guy in Remembrance of the Daleks that unknowingly joined the Renengade Dalek faction. Both he and Mike were awful people, but at least when he joined a racist, elitest group that wanted to keep the undesirables out, he didn't want to exterminate all of them LOL. You seem to be missing the fact that Mike had become vulnerable and weakened after the mind attack by BOSS in the previous story so therefore was susceptible to extremist radicalization. It was in fact VERY GOOD writing because it was carrying on the continuity of the characters personal story arc perfectly. It's why he then joins the monastery for meditation and cleansing his mind in the next story. |
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