Morbius or Attack

[Ludders II]

So another poll was discussed, but nobody is doing it, so let's let the dog see the rabbit.

I think Attack is in the top 2 of Colin's tenure, but it's up against a massive personal favourite that is in my Top 5 of all time, so it has to be Morbius for me.

[rushy]

Morbius and it's not even remotely close. These two are about as equal as Talons of Weng-Chiang and The Space Museum.

[RobFilth]

Burrunjor is right about "Attack of the Cybermen".

It's mainstream fan opinion groomed by media outlets to give the story an undeserved kick-in, when apart from the cruddy looking Cryons, there's not alot else wrong with it.

I love Brain of Morbius too, but episode 3 is a sag, with far too much of the Sisters twirling around a f*cking poll. Solon, Condo and Morbius are fab, but the Sisters of the Flame are shit and drag the whole thing down.

So I went for the underdog here and voted for "Attack".

[Cherry Pepsi Maxil]

Attack for me too. 80s Cybermen and Peri in a pink leotard. Is anything else really worth it in life?

[iank]

Attack. It's as insanely underrated as Morbius is insanely overrated. I've just always found the latter a bit... lame.

[Deleted]

Yeah there are other tom stories I prefer over morbius it's decent but not great for me seeds of Doom , Deadly Assassin talons,robots of death, Genesis, Revenge , hand of fear, horror of fang Rock ,Sunmakers, pirate planet ,Ribos operation Invisible Enemy Destiny of The Daleks , City of Death , creature from the pit Shada , meglos,full circle , state of Decay, Keeper Of Traken, Logopolis, .

[Kimbergoth]

Ooh, now this is a juicy one! Brain of Morbius vs Attack of the Cybermen? Talk about a battle of the titans!

Brain of Morbius with its gothic horror vibes and mind-bending concepts...and Attack of the Cybermen bringing the metal menaces back with a vengeance.

If I had to choose, I'm gonna go with Brain of Morbius. I mean, come on! Frankenstein references, creepy brain surgery, Time Lord lore... It's just so deliciously dark and twisted. But Attack of the Cybermen is a solid silver medalist in my book.

[burrunjor]

Attack of the Cybermen is the better if the two.

Glad Rob agrees with me here. I've come to the conclusion that fandom opinions are usually just cliquey shit from the elites and people being sheep going along with it. Of course that's not to say that you can't ever agree with the fandom elite. At times cliquey shits do get it right, and you can absolutely hate stories with a bad rep for other reasons beyond the fandom elite, and hey sometimes like Timelash they can have a bad rep for a reason. (Not saying Rushy is a sheep. He's as contrary to fandom as Ruth Duggan LMAO.)

It's more the way fandom absolutely trashes these completely average at worst stories as the worst thing ever made, a total embarrassment and parrot the same sheep mentality about why it's bad, whilst often letting other stories away with the same or worse. It's not just who fandom that do this. Sci fi fandom in general are atrocious for this. I mean look at the roasting Morbius, the Jared Leto vampire film got. It was a perfectly fine superhero movie, no worse than about 98 percent of MCU movies. To be honest I thought it was better than those ghastly Thor movies or the smug Robert Downey JR Marvel films as Morbius is a more interesting character and Matt Smith is a really strong antagonist. At worst you could say Morbius was just a bland by the numbers superhero movie (which by the way is that such a bad thing? FFS fans were less demanding in the past. When westerns were the thing they could enjoy by the numbers spaghetti westerns and didn't expect everyone to be a masterpiece.) Morbius was made out to be the f*cking Room in terms of quality. I watched it for that very reason expecting it to be a hilarious shit fest and couldn't believe that was the film said to be one of the worst. That finally convinced me of the sheep mentality. 

I think we see the same thing with Attack. It's a perfectly fine story that moves along at a good pace, makes the Cybermen a legit threat showing them wipe out another race, having the Time Lords be scared of them, highlights what was scary about them, that they convert people, plays on the body horror tropes, and has some stunning bits of direction that highlights their size and menace like when they corner Lytton. 

Speaking of which Lytton's character arc from Resurrection to Attack is wonderful and was decades ahead of its time. In the 90s and the 00s lots of series would do Lytton's story which was basically. 

There's a minor villain working for the main antagonist, and is one of their best lackeys, but they have a difficult relationship with the main villain, who may want to dispose of them. The hero encounters this lackey, but they escapes the defeat and death of the main villain, who they maybe even betray. The lackey then returns the next season, and is a down on their luck loser now living a desperate existence, but they soon end up helping the hero against a new villain. The hero doesn't trust them of course and even mistreats them, refusing to believe that they could have changed, but then the lackey sacrifices themselves in some way, and goes through absolute hell, torture, humiliation etc, a real baptism of fire, after which the hero sees they have changed and even feels guilty for misjudging them (though if they are lucky to live they might become the heroes' ally.)

This is the arc for Spike and Faith in Buffy and Angel. Spike is basically an attack dog for Dru in season 2 (he's certainly the least of the trio of vamps) and has a difficult relationship with the true villain Angelus and subsequently escapes his defeat. He then returns a poor schmuck in seasons 3 and 4, before falling in love with Buffy in season 5, but she refuses due to her past experiences to believe he has changed until he is tortured almost to death by Glory to protect Buffy's little sister she sees Spike has changed and that she misjudged him. Faith similar is the lackey of the Mayor, the main villain of season 3,  and she survives his defeat and returns desperate the following year, before she undergoes her own redemption and later breaks out of prison to help fight another villain, the beast, Angelus and Jasmine and similarly goes through a horrific time of it. 

Meg in Supernatural? Same arc. She is the daughter of the main villain of the season, and a thorn in the side of the Winchester Boys, but she survives the main foes death and defeat and later ends up desperate and is forced to help them against another villain and later gets tortured and dies defending the brothers from said villain like a hero, with the brothers feeling they misjudged her. 

DW did all that first with  Lytton, but rather than be given credit for that it just gets trashed for it? And because it's too continuity heavy? How is it anymore continuity heavy than Remembrance of the Daleks, or the bulk of the Moffat era, or even a story like Spearhead from Space? The continuity is explained in a reasonable and concise way. 

Of course the story does have faults, like the Cryons being realised in an AWFUL way, the Cyber controllers look etc, but these are minor complaints

Meanwhile Brain of Morbius though having a solid plot for the most part, great sets and brilliant guest stars in Philip Madoc and Michael Spice. It also has arguably more flaws in its production and story. For one the Doctor is an absolute arsehead who makes ridiculous mistakes for the sake of the story like drinking wine in the house of a guy he knows is a worshipper of Morbius who has a spaceship graveyard in his back garden with a decapitated head, or him trusting Solon and leaving Sarah in his care when he knows he wants a head, or when he shakes Morbius hand and gets knocked out. 

Also yes some of the acting from other characters is off. Lis Sladen is atrocious in it. Some of her acting choices seem nonsensical like the random cockney accent, and her going ohhh at no sonic screwdriver and then suddenly changing her expression for no reason at all, or the weird grunting sex noises she makes during the Doctors mind duel with Morbius, where she also calls the Doctor Tom, or the whiney "I could always sell flowers, uuuuh soorrreeeeeee." Then there is Ohica's legendary eye acting LOL, and the infamous Sister standing for 10 mins until Morbius stumbles towards her so she can be strangled.

Again I normally like Liz, but this is probably her worst performance along with Ark in Space and the Stolen Earth. 

Also the plot whilst a good idea, does have a lot of holes. Why do the Sisterhood let Solon stay on the planet when they call him evil and he is a known follower of Morbius? Why did Solon even stay on Karn and not fly somewhere remote and kill someone and place Morbius' brain in their body? 

Also whilst it was only hinted at, even suggesting pre Hartnell Doctors back then was a really shitty thing for Hinchcliff to do and the fact that he was unapologetic about it, and even defended the Timeless Children made him come over as a sell out. 

Again I do enjoy Morbius in spite of this. It's actually extremely rewatchable, but it is flawed and I feel only included among flawless stories like Genesis because it's part of that season.

[Deleted]

I have to watch Morbius again that's hilarious that Sarah called The Doctor by his real name Tom wow lol 😆 😂 🤣!

[iank]

Sept 21, 2024 21:12:35 GMT burrunjor said:

 I've come to the conclusion that fandom opinions are usually just cliquey shit from the elites and people being sheep going along with it. 

Welcome to my world.

[Ludders II]

I personally don't really buy into the fan received wisdom part. I just vote for the one I enjoy the most. I like several Who stories that have plotholes, such as Fendhal, or Ghost Light.
Fan received wisdom tells me that City of Death is amazing, Robot is a dud, and Tomb is a huge disappointment. All of which I disregard entirely.
I like a lot of stories like Monster of Peladon, Web Planet, and Time-Flight that fan received wisdom says are dull, boring or just crap. So I say: f*ck fan received wisdom. Sometimes it coincides, and sometimes it doesn't.

[burrunjor]

Sept 22, 2024 5:16:31 GMT @lex23 said:

I have to watch Morbius again that's hilarious that Sarah called The Doctor by his real name Tom wow lol 😆 😂 🤣!

You have to really listen to hear it, but yeah it is in the mind bending sequence when she keeps going uhhh, ohhh, aggghhhh, you'll hear a Tom in there and if you use the subtitles they say Tom too. 

[Bernard Marx]

Sept 22, 2024 10:10:33 GMT burrunjor said:

You have to really listen to hear it, but yeah it is in the mind bending sequence when she keeps going uhhh, ohhh, aggghhhh, you'll hear a Tom in there and if you use the subtitles they say Tom too. 

They could have been taking the piss with that subtitle insert- it’s difficult to discern what the bloody hell she’s saying. It’s commonly speculated- amidst the overlapping voices- that Luke Skywalker/Mark Hamill refers to Leia as “Carrie” at the end of Star Wars (1977). It’s a shame the subtitles didn’t include it on that occasion!

[burrunjor]

Sept 22, 2024 7:35:35 GMT Ludders II said:

I personally don't really buy into the fan received wisdom part. I just vote for the one I enjoy the most. I like several Who stories that have plotholes, such as Fendhal, or Ghost Light.
Fan received wisdom tells me that City of Death is amazing, Robot is a dud, and Tomb is a huge disappointment. All of which I disregard entirely.
I like a lot of stories like Monster of Peladon, Web Planet, and Time-Flight that fan received wisdom says are dull, boring or just crap. So I say: f*ck fan received wisdom. Sometimes it coincides, and sometimes it doesn't.

It's the nastiness from fandom that bugs me. They love being able to embrace their inner bully. Like I said guilt free bullying is a really ugly trait that we can all embrace as soon as we are told it's okay to dogpile on something. 

Again look at how the Morbius movie was treated by the stupid memers as soon as it became okay to bully the movie. That was real petty high school stuff, people saying they thought it was great to take the piss out of it, which led to the director reposting one of the fake reviews and getting laughed at for being stupid enough to believe it. It was basically this. 



Again it's made worse by the fact that they are such raging hypocrites and praise things that are far worse and more toxic for all these brands, hence why the sci fi genre has had the arse ripped out of it more than any other. Said it before, said it again, the day this official, aging hipster millennial, aging, self loathing I'm still with it boomer side of fandom and the pyschotic gen Z freaks they are all scared of, and all their shills lose their influence and it just becomes like what it was in the 60s and 70s, a place for people who like the genre the better off we'll all be.  

[Ludders II]

That's just it. I've never taken much notice of fandom. I grew up watching Who in the pre-internet age, it's even less relevant. I don't prefer Brain of Morbius because fandom says it's better. I'm not interested in wider fandoms. I don't follow any YouTubers, and I'm not interested in what stories fandom thinks is cool or uncool etc...