Rogue

[Cherry Pepsi Maxil]

Think it happened in Deep Breath as well.

[Deleted]

A black woman was the Doctor before William Hartnell. Doctor Who has always been queer. The Doctor and the Master were always written as past lovers. Time Lords have always been gender-fluid. We've always been at war with East Asia.

[cyberhat]

If you did a heterosexual remake of Rogue, it would be Sid James in in Carry On Tardis.

[Cherry Pepsi Maxil]

Jun 8, 2024 2:02:30 GMT Ludders II said:

Jeez, it's worse than I feared. The violins are going full Mantovani. Murray Gold is having a field day.

Copying my post from Levine's group:

It's not the fact that he's snogging a bloke that I disagree with, it's the fact that the Doctor is snogging anyone at all. Whether it be Rose, River Song, or whoever else. This is just romanticised soap opera bullshit IMO, and one of the reasons I've never liked NuWho from at least Series 2.

Which prompted the following responses.

There's a difference between a powerful moment for a minority community and a raving egotist moulding an alien character (who he didn't create) in his own image including his sexuality. NuWho fans do not want to accept this. Does anyone really believe that Time Lords obsess over who they want to bonk when they watch The Deadly Assassin? Ncuti's Doctor is merely a combination of other characters from Russell's gay dramas.

[Cherry Pepsi Maxil]

I just call bullshit on it really. Why would the Doctor be interested in Rogue when he's got the charisma and charm of used toliet paper? You'd think any person he'd ever like in that way if he were interested would be Romana because she really matched his level of wit and could hold her own in their fun verbal back and forth. I don't want a Romana/Doctor relationship anyway because I'm happy with they way it played out, but still. 

[burrunjor]

Aug 29, 2024 22:34:04 GMT Cherry Pepsi Maxil said:

I just call bullshit on it really. Why would the Doctor be interested in Rogue when he's got the charisma and charm of used toliet paper? You'd think any person he'd ever like in that way if he were interested would be Romana because she really matched his level of wit and could hold her own in their fun verbal back and forth. I don't want a Romana/Doctor relationship anyway because I'm happy with they way it played out, but still. 

I may have been a bit harsh in my comments against Russell and the writers earlier in this thread, calling them narcissists. After all when did name calling ever get us anywhere? Still he definitely does want to turn the character into his avatar and yes you're right Rogue is the weakest love interest for the Doctor with that in mind as RTD and the two lesbians writing it just wrote how they'd react in a gay fantasy story.

Again we're all in agreement that love interests in general don't suit the Doctor and I am no way saying that Rose was a good fit for William Hartnell LOL, but with the others at the very least they still put some effort into making it feel natural and they did work within the confines of New Who. 

Rose was kind hearted, brave, wanted to escape from the tedium of her every day life and helped him overcome the loss of his people.

Martha is a ducky who helped him overcome the loss of Rose, went though hell on earth to save him from the Master etc. 

Clara saw every version of him, saved him millions of times, knew his secrets, helped him undo the time war etc. 

River again saved him many times, lived for centuries, intellectually was on his level, had regenerated just like he did, knew his deepest secrets etc. 

I might add ALL of these romances happened over a long period too. It literally took centuries for him to fall in love with River. 

Even those that were one shot however, like Madame DePompadour and Lady Christina, at least there was something else there. Madame DePompadour was a brave woman who had been tormented by monsters her whole life and who the Doctor had to protect, whilst Lady Christina was a similarly adventurous person whose crimes didn't harm anybody and who was incredibly brave when she had to be against aliens and monsters.

I might add, all of these romances as befits a more sensitive character like the Doctor, they were all more emotional romances. As much as we make jokes about the lothario Doctors, it actually wasn't a James Bond, he goes around shagging his companions situation with any of them.

It was all about the bond the Doctor had, how they helped him through dark times, the companions also fell in love with him because he was a brave, kind, dashing man  etc. Okay yeah River was a bit flirty, as was Martha at first, but basically the romances were far more emotional.

Rose and the Doctor never actually kissed properly. 9 only did it once to take the vortex power from her, whilst 10 was kissed against his will by Lady Christina in Rose's body, and Rose kissed the Meta Crisis Doctor. River and the Doctors first proper onscreen kiss happens in Name of the Doctor, her second last story. Prior to that she kisses an android of him, and forces herself on him when he's a bit unsure or again kisses him to give him regeneration energy. The Doctor meanwhile NEVER kissed Clara. That was ONE duplicate that again forced herself on him.  

Yet when it comes to Rogue he wants to shag this guy within minutes of meeting him? This guy is also not a hero, not a kind person, not adventurous. He is a f*cking bounty hunter that KILLS people for money and he tries to murder the Doctor in cold blood before knowing for sure if he is bad or not, he also resorts to shooting monsters first and not asking questions. 

Why would someone like the Doctor be all over this guy and wanting to get off with him? I can imagine every other Doctor from Hartnell to f*cking Jodie despising Rogue and viewing him as a scoundrel at first, but maybe at the end thinking he'd misjudged him when he turned out to be not so bad like Lytton, but that's it. 

Again though people go on about how Eric Saward destroyed the Doctors morality by having him euologise Lytton after Lytton had been tortured to death protecting humanity and the Cryons, but it's okay to have the Doctor want to shag a similar bounty hunter within 2 mins of meeting him (and after said bounty hunter tried to fry him) because he's hot?

[burrunjor]

Does anyone else think that RTD removed the Doctor being married and having children in Hartnell's time from canon to get rid of the last heterosexual aspect of the character? Making out that Susan will come about in the Doctors future and just travelled back to be with Hartnell means that the Doctor could be a woman and actually give birth to Susan. (Believe it or not I have seen MANY people put this theory forward on Gallifrey Reddit that the Doctor is Susan's Grandmother, she just called him grandfather when he was Hartnell to respect his pronouns. They also now argue that Hartnell's Doctor was clearly gay as further proof he's not her grandfather as he was in their words "very fruity.")

Trying to make out Susan will be born in his future kind of undermined the previous last of the Time Lords arc hilariously. Given Susan was a time lord, (as she knew about the Death Zone, and was spotted leaving Gallifrey with him in Name of the Doctor, talks about her childhood there and the Doctor mentions non Time Lords weren't allowed on Gallifrey at that time hence why he dumps Sarah back home) then that means surely 9, 10 and 11 would know that there must be another Time Lord out there after the Time War for Susan to still exist? Not just his partner, but Susan's PARENTS, both of them? Surely that would have given him some hope? Similarly even now surely he should know they aren't dead, so why is he acting like they are?

It's such a mess at this stage, all in an effort for some writers to reshape it to suit them and nobody else. I will say though it's quite funny how Moffat contradicted RTD's crap of the Doctor hasn't had kids just a few episodes earlier when Ncuti's Doctor said "dad to dad" in Boom. 



Pretty much the new who writing staff at this stage.