Top five favourite foes?

[Cherry Pepsi Maxil]

1.  The Cybermen - love the design, the premise of them and their stories. 
2. Fenric - a one off villain who comes across just as powerful as long time enemies. 
3. The Toymaker - not a beloved character on here, but I find him very interesting especially in his original serial. I love the concept of these mighty beings.
4. The Daleks - iconic for a reason. Sometimes not used very well (looking at you, NuWho), but a real force in the classic series. They also boast some of the most chilling and entertaining stories of the entire show. If it's acceptable I'm going to put Davros along side them. 
5. Sutekh - "your evil is my good." Truly one of the most powerful enemies and one that the Doctor is clearly afraid of. 

Shout out to The Master because I know some of you will moan about me leaving him out 

[rushy]

1. The BOSS, from "The Green Death" - I love how much personality he has, especially for a computer. Every moment between him and Stevens (a brilliant villain in his own right) is a joy. The way he shamelessly embodies the need for 'efficiency, productivity and profit for Global Chemicals, of course!' is terrific. I just find him intensely memorable and the actor clearly has a great time chewing the scenery. He's a rare baddie who doesn't take himself too seriously. And the bit where he's singing has me in stitches! 'Do we dare the glorious Wagner?'

2. The Master - The Master has had ups and downs over the years, but there's several incarnations I adore. And there's always room to do more with him, I think. The fact that he's just one person and not a species makes him more interesting to me than the other iconic baddies. He's the one who really gets under the Doctor's skin, I think.

3. Ramon Salamander, from "The Enemy of the World" - I love how Troughton plays him as a multifaceted gangster. He's clearly driven solely by greed, but he's intelligent enough to get people to want to work for him. The accent is a hoot and his plan's so brilliantly bonkers.

4. The Graff Vynda-K, from "The Ribos Operation" - He has an awesome backstory, and is more vulnerable than most antagonists due to his obvious bitterness over being shunned. The Graff clearly thinks he's doing what's best for his people and is very proud of his past victories and achievements. It's hard not to sympathise with him at times, despite him obviously being a bastard who was thrown down for the right reasons. His death scene is amazing too. 'Onwards!'

5. Solomon, from "Dinosaurs in a Spaceship" - Okay, so it's just David Bradley doing the typical David Bradley thing. But it works brilliantly imo. Solomon is so doggedly without a single scruple that it becomes fun to loathe him. Yet he's not just a guntoting antagonist, he feels like a real spiteful person, someone who has no real agenda beyond just being a greedy ass.

Honorary mention goes to the Daleks, for obvious reasons.

[burrunjor]

Jun 4, 2024 12:28:25 GMT rushy said:

1. The BOSS, from "The Green Death" - I love how much personality he has, especially for a computer. Every moment between him and Stevens (a brilliant villain in his own right) is a joy. The way he shamelessly embodies the need for 'efficiency, productivity and profit for Global Chemicals, of course!' is terrific. I just find him intensely memorable and the actor clearly has a great time chewing the scenery. He's a rare baddie who doesn't take himself too seriously. And the bit where he's singing has me in stitches! 'Do we dare the glorious Wagner?'

2. The Master - The Master has had ups and downs over the years, but there's several incarnations I adore. And there's always room to do more with him, I think. The fact that he's just one person and not a species makes him more interesting to me than the other iconic baddies. He's the one who really gets under the Doctor's skin, I think.

3. Ramon Salamander, from "The Enemy of the World" - I love how Troughton plays him as a multifaceted gangster. He's clearly driven solely by greed, but he's intelligent enough to get people to want to work for him. The accent is a hoot and his plan's so brilliantly bonkers.

4. The Graff Vynda-K, from "The Ribos Operation" - He has an awesome backstory, and is more vulnerable than most antagonists due to his obvious bitterness over being shunned. The Graff clearly thinks he's doing what's best for his people and is very proud of his past victories and achievements. It's hard not to sympathise with him at times, despite him obviously being a bastard who was thrown down for the right reasons. His death scene is amazing too. 'Onwards!'

5. Solomon, from "Dinosaurs in a Spaceship" - Okay, so it's just David Bradley doing the typical David Bradley thing. But it works brilliantly imo. Solomon is so doggedly without a single scruple that it becomes fun to loathe him. Yet he's not just a guntoting antagonist, he feels like a real spiteful person, someone who has no real agenda beyond just being a greedy ass.

Honorary mention goes to the Daleks, for obvious reasons.

Sorry Rushy but that is eh, odd I don't want to say lame list, but an odd one. Why pick all these fairly generic one off villains in a show with such a perfect rogues gallery?

I couldn't take to any of them apart from the Master. Ribos Operation is overrated Bob Holmes being petulant and pretentious about story arcs and god like beings and quite frankly is a bit of a chore at times to get through depending on your mood, Enemy of the World is fairly generic and boring, Dinosaurs on a Spaceship, well does it need said? Also how was this old guy able to kill all the Silurians? I mean seriously? They're dinosaur people who have super strength, and according to Vastra can eat people? Kind of like how the Master killed all the Time Lords. BOSS meanwhile was a decent idea but so overacted at times he becomes a little too silly. 

[rushy]

Because I like them more than the rogues gallery. And I love the stories.

[Ludders II]

Daleks

Favourite design: The Chase onwards
Favourite voices: Evil onwards, particularly Skelton, Wisher, and Brian Miller
Favourite livery: Gun metal grey/blue 

Cybermen ('60s)

Favourite design: The Invasion/Revenge
Favourite voices: Moonbase/Tomb

The Master (Delgado)

Honorary mention: Peter Pratt/Geoffrey Beevers

Davros (Wisher)

Special mention: Terry Molloy (He's excellent, but I would've preferred Davros as one-off character, unless it was a prequel like I, Davros.)
(Even Bleach is ok, it's just the crap scripts)

Sutekh

Honorary mention to Bernard Archard/Marcus Scarman for best villain's supporting role/performance. 

[rushy]

Jun 4, 2024 13:19:25 GMT burrunjor said:

Ribos Operation is overrated Bob Holmes being petulant and pretentious about story arcs and god like beings and quite frankly is a bit of a chore at times to get through depending on your mood, Enemy of the World is fairly generic and boring, Dinosaurs on a Spaceship, well does it need said? Also how was this old guy able to kill all the Silurians? I mean seriously? They're dinosaur people who have super strength, and according to Vastra can eat people? Kind of like how the Master killed all the Time Lords. BOSS meanwhile was a decent idea but so overacted at times he becomes a little too silly.

Ribos Operation is a top 10 story for me. The characters are great, the dialogue is golden. I love the Doctor and Romana's dynamic, and the Graff's attempts to reclaim power. And Iain Cuthbertson being a hoot. Don't see where you get the petulance from. Enemy of the World is easily top tier Troughton, if only for not being another tiresome monster story. Solomon killed the Silurians by being a devious shit. He just outwitted them somehow. It doesn't matter. I can easily imagine him finding a way. He'll do anything for wealth. I don't care about the Silurians anyway. I'd happily take more Solomon over them. The BOSS is perfect and I will hear nothing less about him. I love that character. "Co-nnect! Co-nnect! Co-nnect! Zim pom!"

[burrunjor]

Like a lot of people this has probably changed at certain points, but for now. 

1/ The Daleks and Davros: No matter what else changes they are always at the top. They are top tier villains in general. They have the highest amount of classic stories. Really there's only three adventures in the entirety of classic who they were in that aren't major or minor classics, and even then they are all still enjoyable. They have the most fleshed out and interesting backstory, they are the perfect metaphor for not just race hatred, but fascism, man's destructive effect on the environment, mindless conformity etc. They have the most unique and stunning design that works on so many levels, they have the most charismatic personalities, distinctive voices, and they really push the Doctor to his limits. Even New Who to be honest never f*cked them up. Granted that might be the Nation estate stepping in, or it might be because the idea is so fool proof? Either the way they are practically the only icon of the show that hasn't been f*cked up yet. 

I'll be honest here I was a Dalek fan before I was a DW fan. I mean I always loved DW, but the Daleks were my main interest and my way into getting to know the show. Davros meanwhile I disagree had no place after Genesis. Not only did I love Terry Molloy's performance, but I think the Davros arc from Genesis to Remembrance is the best story arc in the history of classic who, and one of the best character arcs I've ever seen. 

2/ Cybermen: Sadly even in classic who they didn't have the best history, with there only really being three classic Cyber stories. Still the idea is fantastic. Decades ahead of its time, yet also a great call back to early monster myths like vampires and zombies. Really it brings that ancient terror of a monster taking away your humanity into the space age perfectly. They are also the greatest physical threat in the show, and the way they kill their victims is more horrifying and their designs though flexible are still strong and distinctive. 

3/ The Master: Another predictable choice. It's hard to appreciate him the same way now as when I was a little boy sadly due to how much he has been ruined in the revival, and worse how their shit has to spread back the way. (I saw a DW twitter account have a picture of Pertwee and Delgado together among their list of DW LGBT characters for pride month LMFAO.) Still the original Master from Delgado to Roberts was one of the best examples of the archenemy trope. I loved the way he would always escape justice. You really wanted to see him get his because of his heinous crimes but he always had some dirty trick up his sleeve. Delgado was undoubtedly the most charismatic, but I think I might like the burned version who was the scariest. 

4/ Sutekh: Agreed of all the one off villains he was the best. Gabriel Woof's icey, cold, ruthless, understated performance is still chilling and the way the story merged both Egyptian mythology and sci fi was inspired. 

5/ Linx: I like the Sontarans as a whole, but since they do have more individual personalities I thought I'd single Linx out for special mention. Kevin Lindsay gave one of the absolute best performances and I just love this story so much. It's endlessly rewatchable for me and Linx and Irongron have the best bromance of any two characters in DW. 

[rushy]

I'm not too big on the monsters/races. I like the individual villains, whose unique psychologies you can get into. The Daleks stand out, but aside from that, I could easily do with never seeing Cybermen/Sontarans/whatever else again.

[burrunjor]

Jun 4, 2024 13:35:16 GMT rushy said:

Jun 4, 2024 13:19:25 GMT burrunjor said:

Ribos Operation is overrated Bob Holmes being petulant and pretentious about story arcs and god like beings and quite frankly is a bit of a chore at times to get through depending on your mood, Enemy of the World is fairly generic and boring, Dinosaurs on a Spaceship, well does it need said? Also how was this old guy able to kill all the Silurians? I mean seriously? They're dinosaur people who have super strength, and according to Vastra can eat people? Kind of like how the Master killed all the Time Lords. BOSS meanwhile was a decent idea but so overacted at times he becomes a little too silly.

Ribos Operation is a top 10 story for me. The characters are great, the dialogue is golden. I love the Doctor and Romana's dynamic, and the Graff's attempts to reclaim power. And Iain Cuthbertson being a hoot. Don't see where you get the petulance from. Enemy of the World is easily top tier Troughton, if only for not being another tiresome monster story. Solomon killed the Silurians by being a devious shit. He just outwitted them somehow. It doesn't matter. I can easily imagine him finding a way. He'll do anything for wealth. I don't care about the Silurians anyway. I'd happily take more Solomon over them. The BOSS is perfect and I will hear nothing less about him. I love that character. "Co-nnect! Co-nnect! Co-nnect! Zim pom!"

It was more just Bob Holmes hated having to write a story where the Doctor was sent on a mission by a higher power. He had a snobbery about higher powers as much as he did recurring villains, so he basically pushes the Key to Time element into the background to write a story about the Doctor hanging out with likable criminals to show how much he hated the idea. 

I can't stand it when writers do things like that, they don't give an idea a chance and just revolt in a way they think is clever. I'll be honest whenever I watch the Ribos Operation, it gets annoying the way this interesting arc is set up and then we jump straight into a mundane crime story. It's not completely without merit. There are times where I've enjoyed watching it. Like I said it's a story you have to be in the right mood for I think, unlike the Time Warrior that is just sheer joy or Resurrection that grabs you no matter what. Still Ian Cuthbertson is brilliant in it, but ultimately I don't know I think it's a shame after setting up the key to time, to just discard it. Then again the worst story of the series is the finale which focuses the most on the Key to Time arc, though I think it was bad for other reasons. 

[rushy]

Jun 4, 2024 13:40:39 GMT burrunjor said:

It was more just Bob Holmes hated having to write a story where the Doctor was sent on a mission by a higher power. He had a snobbery about higher powers as much as he did recurring villains, so he basically pushes the Key to Time element into the background to write a story about the Doctor hanging out with likable criminals to show how much he hated the idea.

I don't notice it at all. I thought the whole point is that it's still regular adventures, but with the added mystery of "where's the MacGuffin" and the chase to get it. If any story revolts against the formula, it's Androids of Tara, which pointedly makes a joke about the Doctor deciding to go fishing instead. And then Romana finds it in like five minutes, and the rest of the serial is about something else.

[Ludders II]

Jun 4, 2024 13:36:05 GMT burrunjor said:

I was a Dalek fan before I was a DW fan.

Me too, in the sense that although I didn't start watching DW until 1970, I was well aware of the Daleks in their own right before I first saw them on TV in Day of the Daleks.
Before then, I'd been given a copy of the 1964 Dalek book by my Uncle, and my mum took me to the cinema to see the second Cushing movie. Which I still prefer to day over the original Hartnell version of DIOE. Sacrilege though it may be. 

[rushy]

Jun 4, 2024 13:57:38 GMT Ludders II said:

Which I still prefer to day over the original Hartnell version of DIOE. Sacrilege though it may be. 

I found my new mortal enemy

[Deleted]

1. Li H'sen Chang (Talons of Weng-Chiang)
2. The Master (Delgado, Deadly Assassin)
3. The Dalek Emperor (Evil of the Daleks, Bad Wolf/Parting of the Ways)
4. The Psychic Circus (Greatest Show in the Galaxy)
5. Harrison Chase (Seeds of Doom)

I would put Davros on here but I really only care for Wisher in Genesis and Bleach in Stolen Earth/Journey's End. I never really bought into Terry Molloy, way too shouty and not menacing enough, felt like a flanderised version of the character. The same can be said of Ainley's Master and the Cybermen post-Invasion.

[iank]

The Ribos Operation is f*cking awesome. Ten seconds of it is better written and more sophisticated than the entirety of New Who. This weird Holmes hate boner you got going on needs to go, B.

Classic only:
Cybermen
Daleks
Master
Tobias Vaughn
Harrison Chase

[burrunjor]

Jun 4, 2024 21:56:02 GMT iank said:

The Ribos Operation is f*cking awesome. Ten seconds of it is better written and more sophisticated than the entirety of New Who. This weird Holmes hate boner you got going on needs to go, B.

Classic only:
Cybermen
Daleks
Master
Tobias Vaughn
Harrison Chase

I absolutely do NOT have a Bob Holmes hate boner. He is the single greatest writer ever to work on Doctor Who and one of the greatest tv writers of all time. The fact that I included Linx as one of my top five, a character he wrote in a story he wasn't even interested in writing shows you I don't hate him. 

I just don't think he is flawless like a lot of fandom. He did have some flaws and could be very petty and petulant about things he didn't like, such as recurring enemies or higher beings beings. Both of them can be overused yes, but to throw them out completely was short sighted and arrogant, which shows nobody is perfect. To be honest I think I come down harder on Terrance Dicks. He certainly annoys me more, even though he was a fantastic writer and script editor, his treatment of the Cybermen and Kit Pedler was so petty and shitty and he was a terrible ambassador for the show in the 90s and 00s. Plus the fact that he invented that pretentious "never cruel or cowardly" line that Moffat f*cked to death is another point against him LOL. 

Meanwhile the first milisecond of The Ribos Operation is better than anything in New Who since 2014, but that's not saying much LOL. Again it's not a bad story, but one I find I have to be in the mood for. I'll be honest here I don't like it when Doctor Who doesn't have monsters or supernatural or fantasy, sci fi elements. I'm not saying that's an objective truth, but for me that's how I feel. I will say that's one of many, many, many reasons the show has been absolute bollocks for 10 years. How many interesting or unique monsters have there been? 

I'll also say there is a bit of a cult built up about Bob Holmes on places like Gallifrey Base and TV Tropes that anything he said has to be taken as gospel which can get annoying. (Though even then these assholes will often just lie about what he said, like claiming he was the first person to have Time Lords change sex across regeneration, and that he said continuity doesn't matter etc.)