Joker: Folie a Deux trailer

[rushy]

Oct 17, 2024 9:00:58 GMT burrunjor said:

Oct 17, 2024 6:37:37 GMT iank said:

6 is good, I don't see where it's the best though. 2 and 5 both kick its ass IMO.

5 maybe, but 2 has an absolute stinker in the Lisa Yates episode that is just too depressing and goes nowhere. All of 6 is an absolute laugh. Also I'm just not as keen on them lazing around as them going on adventures. The creativity in series 6 is much better than 2, also and this is the most important thing, 6 gives all 4 characters a chance to shine. 

Another thing I dislike about the earlier series is that it is all Rimmer/Lister, with the Cat just flitting in and out and Holly apart from Queeg being a background presence. It's why I never liked Marooned and find it to be the most overrated episode of the series. Give me Psirens or Legion any day. 

LOL you're breaking my heart here. The Lisa Yates episode is my very favourite, and all the stuff you describe is exactly why I adore series 2 with a passion 😂😂😂

[rushy]

For me, Rimmer/Lister is the heart of the show, and the reason I fell in love with it is because all they did was laze about in space. It felt original and forced them to be more creative with stories.

Space adventures are all good fun, but it became a different show at that point.

That original vibe of "As the days go by, we face the increasing inevitability that we are alone in a godless, uninhabited, hostile and meaningless universe. Still, you've got to laugh, innit?" was lost.

I loved that they were all alone and were just finding ways to make noise and keep themselves going all on their own, driving each other mad whilst also needing each other for companionship.

Pretending things were still somewhat ok by keeping the ship's protocols going. Grasping at straws for reasons to live.

It's even better in the books where Lister turns into an alcoholic, and later finds out Earth was turned into a junkyard and abandoned. He has a mental breakdown and screams at God to just finish him off. Harrowing stuff, but it adds so much texture to the characters and the world.

[iank]

I think Thanks for the Memory is a great ep. If you want stinker Polymorph II is lazy ass shite.
2>6 any day.

[burrunjor]

Oct 17, 2024 9:22:25 GMT rushy said:

For me, Rimmer/Lister is the heart of the show, and the reason I fell in love with it is because all they did was laze about in space. It felt original and forced them to be more creative with stories.

Space adventures are all good fun, but it became a different show at that point.

That original vibe of "As the days go by, we face the increasing inevitability that we are alone in a godless, uninhabited, hostile and meaningless universe. Still, you've got to laugh, innit?" was lost.

I loved that they were all alone and were just finding ways to make noise and keep themselves going all on their own, driving each other mad whilst also needing each other for companionship.

Pretending things were still somewhat ok by keeping the ship's protocols going. Grasping at straws for reasons to live.

It's even better in the books where Lister turns into an alcoholic, and later finds out Earth was turned into a junkyard and abandoned. He has a mental breakdown and screams at God to just finish him off. Harrowing stuff, but it adds so much texture to the characters and the world.

Sorry I disagree. The space adventures in series 6 still present that lonely, desperate feel. Arguably more as the universe through things like the Psirens, the Epideme virus etc feels like a genuinely terrifying, hostile, nightmarish place. Also the adventures and monsters actually take us deeper into their characters. The despair squid shows us all of their worst nightmares, Holoship shows off Rimmer's heroic and noble side, Ace Rimmer takes us deep into the man he could have been, even Hudson shows us more about Kryten and the mechanoids culture as it were. 

It was the adventures that made Red Dwarf unique. Thanks to them it became an actual sci fi show, as well as a comedy, and a horror series in places. 

You also couldn't have kept the dynamic for the early years of just them bickering. Hell by the end of season 1 they were already beginning to move more to adventure and the Dwarfers encountering other characters like Confidence and Paranoia, whilst season 2 has Kryten and them going to other universes and Lister giving birth. 

That said whilst I prefer the later series, apart from season 8 I wouldn't change the lay out of Red Dwarf at all. I love how it starts out very small and cosey and then becomes genuinely harrowing and scary. 

[rushy]

Oct 17, 2024 11:34:40 GMT iank said:

I think Thanks for the Memory is a great ep. If you want stinker Polymorph II is lazy ass shite.
2>6 any day.

I can't believe I'm siding with Ian. I feel dirty. 

[rushy]

I wouldn't want Red Dwarf without the adventures - a huge part of the show's appeal is how easy it is to watch, and a lot of the time you just want to hang out with the crew and watch them go up against insanely imaginative baddies and win.

But I would have dearly loved just a few more seasons in that original style, without Kryten. No offense to Llewelyn, I adore him in the part and he fits well into the later period, I was just very attached to the family dynamic that Lister, Rimmer, Cat and Norman's Holly had. Holly is like that dad who's cool with the kids, Lister and Rimmer are the two bickering siblings and Cat is that annoying but lovable toddler. Kryten brought a mediating presence that makes the crew much more comfortable with one another, but that also dilutes their interactions a little. It turns them into actual friends instead of family members who have nothing in common, but nobody else to go to. It's just a very different vibe that took me some getting used to.

It especially affected Rimmer, who as one fan described it, was a total powerhouse in series 1-2. His obsession with aliens, his anal retentiveness, his love of PE, the way he kept pushing Lister to follow protocols and had the most inane arguments with him, I loved all that and it mostly disappears in favor of just having him be a nerd with massive social issues. Although apparently this was partly because Barrie and Charles didn't get along around this time. They do resurrect some of these traits in the Dave era.

[rushy]

The Dave era in particular has been quite smart in offering something for everyone. They go back to having those classic style episodes where it's just the crew bungling around on the ship (Fathers and Suns, Dear Dave, Mechocracy), but you also get the spooky space adventures. I appreciate that.

I could watch this sort of thing forever. The dialogue between Lister and Rimmer just sings.

[iank]

Oct 17, 2024 12:07:37 GMT rushy said:

Oct 17, 2024 11:34:40 GMT iank said:

I think Thanks for the Memory is a great ep. If you want stinker Polymorph II is lazy ass shite.
2>6 any day.

I can't believe I'm siding with Ian. I feel dirty. 

Something is clearly wrong with the universe today.

[Cherry Pepsi Maxil]

Tossers 

There's so much wrong with this thread. Emohawk bashing, Marooned "overrated", Thanks for the Memory a bad episode... I mean, WTF.

[rushy]

I don't think Marooned is top 10 material like some say, but it's a classic episode. It's also one of the few storylines that the show did much better than the books, where Rimmer gets turned off halfway through and Lister has to deal with the ship melting from acid rain instead.

[burrunjor]

Oct 17, 2024 11:34:40 GMT iank said:

I think Thanks for the Memory is a great ep. If you want stinker Polymorph II is lazy ass shite.
2>6 any day.

Thanks for the Memory is incredibly mawkish, but unlike Holoship which also suffers from that it is miserable and drags the arse out of a story that goes nowhere. Their memories get wiped and we don't even see their reaction to it or how it changes the status quo of their relationship, other than one bit from Rimmer being a bit upset. Also Lister is completely irresponsible in rewriting Rimmer's memories and the boys from the Dwarf were stupid in not at least waiting until their legs had healed, and marking the black box with a grave stone that wouldn't peak their curiosity. 

Emohawk is great fun, expands on Gelf lore in a way that benefits future episodes and the overall identity of the show, has a hilarious sub plot with Ecch Ecch Ecch Ecch and a cool set for the Gelf village and brilliant costumes for the monsters. It maybe does reuse some of the gags at the end, but seeing Dwayne Dibbley and Ace Rimmer together was a hoot. Also all four characters get to shine. It's not just Rimmer and Lister. 

S6 is a masterpiece of a season. 

That said though I do like the way the show develops. The first two seasons are very depressing given how lonely and hopeless it is it is. In hindsight it's funny looking back at some of the bleak presumptions they make in the early episodes that turn out to be false.

Lister says there is nothing out there, just rocks, no zargon warships, or beautiful beehived wearing women who want to make love to them. 

Hilariously enough Rimmer will later be involved in battles with alien/gelf warships and win, AND he'll meet a beautiful beehived wearing woman who will shag him for hours and be so impressed by his prowess she'll fall in love with him, despite shagging hundreds of men (and he'll have an offer from a Russian babe too LMAO.) 

Also this exchange in Thanks for the Memory is sad at the time.

Lister: You just haven't met the right person.

Rimmer: No, but given I've passed on and given the human race is extinct, some might say I've left it a little bit too late.




Turns out he didn't leave it too long at all to meet the right girl haha. 

Also The Cat says if there were no more Cat people around then he'd kill himself. Well look at the latest story where there is an entire planet of them.

On top of that there are now hundreds of humans around and robots and even GELFs ensuring that it is a populated universe. 

Even Lister never thought he'd be with Kochanski at the time, but he did. Even if it didn't work out well at least now he knows how it would work out and can move on. 

Plus they've also travelled through history, saved the earth from robots, met Einstein and punched out Hitler. 

Overall not a bad life. 

For me Red Dwarf as a whole now comes over as quite a hopeful series where people were able to make the best of a terrible situation. 

[burrunjor]

Oct 17, 2024 13:14:50 GMT rushy said:

I don't think Marooned is top 10 material like some say, but it's a classic episode. It's also one of the few storylines that the show did much better than the books, where Rimmer gets turned off halfway through and Lister has to deal with the ship melting from acid rain instead.

It's terrible in all honesty. Makes Lister too unsympathetic, and it sidelines the Cat and Kryten to the point where they both have about 2 lines. The show does have four characters you know. It's at its best when all four get a chance to shine. Ironically other pairings with Lister and Rimmer, never mind other characters are just as good. 

Rimmer and Kryten is a classic Dr Smith and the Robot, awful, dreadful human and robot who is everything we value in humanity having to take shit from him because he's a robot LOL. Also the Cat and Rimmer have the most vicious and iconic insults between each other, whilst Lister and the Cat are kind of idiots together like the Wilma Flinstone bit. 

Also beyond that the Cat and Kryten are hysterical whenever Kryten loves pointing out his stupidity. 

Fandom is far too hung up on Rimmer and Lister. It's a good pairing yes, but not at the expense of the rest of the show. 

[Cherry Pepsi Maxil]

Except for Beyond a Joke I don't consider any Red Dwarf episode terrible. They all get something out of me.

[burrunjor]

Oct 17, 2024 20:13:29 GMT Cherry Pepsi Maxil said:

Except for Beyond a Joke I don't consider any Red Dwarf episode terrible. They all get something out of me.

What's wrong with Beyond a Joke? "I'll never get invited to parties" still makes me LOL. I remember all my friends quoting it the next day. 

[burrunjor]

I don't think it's wise for anyone here to disagree with me. If you do know me you'll know that I'm the sort of rough and tumble, hardened, macho, ex marine type you do NOT want to mess with.