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Post by iank on Oct 5, 2024 12:34:26 GMT
I don't mind the Deadpools though I've only seen the second once and the first twice. I'm just not a big modern comic book movie guy.
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Post by zarius on Oct 6, 2024 17:07:07 GMT
This should have been called Coda, not Joker
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Post by Cherry Pepsi Maxil on Oct 7, 2024 11:32:10 GMT
The Penguin is probably the most liked DC production at the moment. I'd definitely recommend it to people here. Even forgetting the links to the Batman universe, it's still an absorbing drama.
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Post by burrunjor on Oct 7, 2024 12:19:59 GMT
The Penguin is probably the most liked DC production at the moment. I'd definitely recommend it to people here. Even forgetting the links to the Batman universe, it's still an absorbing drama. It's funny how things change isn't it? When I was young and throughout most of my adult life, there was no question that the Joker was Batman's best villain. To even suggest that the Penguin was on his level would have been seen as ridiculous. He had the largest number of classic stories by far, the greatest number of iconic performances like Jack Nicholson, Mark Hamill, Heath Ledger etc. However now it looks like for the next generation of comic book fans the Penguin may unseat him after all. Mark Hamill has really helped to piss away his legacy with his politics and has made himself a byword for painfully out of touch celeb. Plus his involvement with Ukraine I think will only get worse as time goes on and their links with the Nazis become better known to the public. Meanwhile the Jared Leto Joker was routinely mocked by the public and became a byword for stupid, edgelord hipsters. (Even though I think he was fine in the Snyder Cut, and again it pisses me off seeing the same stupid geek sites that praised Missy slam him as the worst Joker. They lose all credibility that way.) Then there is also the controversy around Harley Quinn who led three box office bombs/dreadful movies in most people's eyes and that AWFUL Harley Quinn spin off series. Finally the second Joker spin off movie has ended up becoming the biggest bomb in DC history, even unseating the Flash which a lot of people did actually really like barring its ending and the controversy around Ezra (who was later acquitted.) As a result The Flash at least got a good audience score. Hell even the Marvels and Morbius got good audience scores, where as Joker 2 bombed in that respect too. The Penguin meanwhile in the last decade first had Robin Lord Taylors sensational performance that carried Gotham, a very popular series that most agree is the best tv thing to come out of DC in the last ten years apart from it would seem ironically a second tv series where the Penguin is the leading character and on top of that the Penguin has starred in one of the few DC film productions of the past few years not to be a total bomb, The Batman. I can honestly see big executives also thinking "oh don't have the Joker in the next movie, he's box office poison" and him not appearing in The Batman film series at all or even James Gunn's DCU. It's a shame as the Joker is still one of the best characters in all of fiction, and believe it or not he isn't as overused as you think. He is in the cartoons that really have been too Joker heavy, but in live action? You know when the last proper Batman vs the Joker film was? 2008. Everything since then in live action has been cameos like the DCEU or the Batman, or the Joker on his own. Of course don't get me wrong here I'm not saying I don't want to see more of the Penguin and other villains who have genuinely been underused like the Mad Hatter, but still it's a shame that this could cloud the villains reputation going forward. (Especially give the problem people seem to have with Joker 2 is that it's NOT a Joker film. Had it been the Joker and Gaga's Harley escaping and going on the rampage throughout Gotham it probably would have done well, but it's because it's all about Arthur and he doesn't do anything Jokeresque that people hated it.) |
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Post by Ludders II on Oct 7, 2024 12:34:16 GMT
The Penguin is probably the most liked DC production at the moment. I'd definitely recommend it to people here. Even forgetting the links to the Batman universe, it's still an absorbing drama. I think I'll give this a go. I've downloaded the first 2 episodes. Was also thinking of doing Gotham all the way through, as I only saw a few episodes here and there because it started just after I got married and there was too much going on to devote the time to it. |
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Post by burrunjor on Oct 7, 2024 12:43:00 GMT
The Penguin is probably the most liked DC production at the moment. I'd definitely recommend it to people here. Even forgetting the links to the Batman universe, it's still an absorbing drama. I think I'll give this a go. I've downloaded the first 2 episodes. Was also thinking of doing Gotham all the way through, as I only saw a few episodes here and there because it started just after I got married and there was too much going on to devote the time to it. Gotham is an absolute riot. It is a lot campier than the Penguin. In terms of its tone it's probably the most like the 90s Batman animated series in that it mixes the different styles together. It can delve into the fantastical, supernatural, sci fi side of Batman, the comedy side, the gritty realism all at the same time depending on the episode. Sadly a lot of people expected it to be a solely gritty, hard edged take (like we haven't had enough of those versions of Batman) so it got trashed when it first came out for that reason, but in time people reassessed and praised it for its varied tone and it's now thought of like I said as the best DC tv show and to tell you the truth it is. It's much better than any of the Arrowverse series and unlike Smallville it actually did the young years of the hero thing better as it knew when to quit and didn't drag it on for an entire decade to the point where the hero did everything in his early years before he puts on the suit like Smallville, making this being a prequel pointless (also unlike Smallville one of its actors wasn't later found guilty of joining a depraved sex cult and enslaving several young women, so it has easier rewatch value that way too LOL.) Robin Lord Taylor's Penguin is by far the best version of the character meanwhile, though I think this show also gave us the best versions of Catwoman and the Riddler, with its Joker also being possibly the best live action version in terms of really capturing the character in my opinion. Again much like Hamill, Cameron Monaghan captured most sides of the Jokers persona, and he didn't later do a video call with a guy who has a Nazi flag in the background so again that's a plus. |
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Post by Bernard Marx on Oct 7, 2024 12:44:36 GMT
My Dad- who’s a schoolteacher- just sent me these messages:
“A Sixth Former in my class saw Joker 2 and said it was ‘crap’. They’re a big fan of the first film, but thought the ending was awful- told me that it destroyed all that was good about the first film and also eroded Ledger’s incarnation.”
He cited the “cutting of the face” as indicative that the ‘new’ Joker was supposed to be Ledger’s. These films can’t be set in the same universe as Christopher Nolan’s trilogy, because Bruce’s parents are killed in entirely different circumstances. If echoing Ledger’s Joker was the creative intent, it’s a piss poor idea even in concept, let alone execution.
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Post by Cherry Pepsi Maxil on Oct 7, 2024 12:56:13 GMT
The Penguin is probably the most liked DC production at the moment. I'd definitely recommend it to people here. Even forgetting the links to the Batman universe, it's still an absorbing drama. It's funny how things change isn't it? When I was young and throughout most of my adult life, there was no question that the Joker was Batman's best villain. To even suggest that the Penguin was on his level would have been seen as ridiculous. He had the largest number of classic stories by far, the greatest number of iconic performances like Jack Nicholson, Mark Hamill, Heath Ledger etc. However now it looks like for the next generation of comic book fans the Penguin may unseat him after all. Mark Hamill has really helped to piss away his legacy with his politics and has made himself a byword for painfully out of touch celeb. Plus his involvement with Ukraine I think will only get worse as time goes on and their links with the Nazis become better known to the public. Meanwhile the Jared Leto Joker was routinely mocked by the public and became a byword for stupid, edgelord hipsters. (Even though I think he was fine in the Snyder Cut, and again it pisses me off seeing the same stupid geek sites that praised Missy slam him as the worst Joker. They lose all credibility that way.) Then there is also the controversy around Harley Quinn who led three box office bombs/dreadful movies in most people's eyes and that AWFUL Harley Quinn spin off series. Finally the second Joker spin off movie has ended up becoming the biggest bomb in DC history, even unseating the Flash which a lot of people did actually really like barring its ending and the controversy around Ezra (who was later acquitted.) As a result The Flash at least got a good audience score. Hell even the Marvels and Morbius got good audience scores, where as Joker 2 bombed in that respect too. The Penguin meanwhile in the last decade first had Robin Lord Taylors sensational performance that carried Gotham, a very popular series that most agree is the best tv thing to come out of DC in the last ten years apart from it would seem ironically a second tv series where the Penguin is the leading character and on top of that the Penguin has starred in one of the few DC film productions of the past few years not to be a total bomb, The Batman. I can honestly see big executives also thinking "oh don't have the Joker in the next movie, he's box office poison" and him not appearing in The Batman film series at all or even James Gunn's DCU. It's a shame as the Joker is still one of the best characters in all of fiction, and believe it or not he isn't as overused as you think. He is in the cartoons that really have been too Joker heavy, but in live action? You know when the last proper Batman vs the Joker film was? 2008. Everything since then in live action has been cameos like the DCEU or the Batman, or the Joker on his own. Of course don't get me wrong here I'm not saying I don't want to see more of the Penguin and other villains who have genuinely been underused like the Mad Hatter, but still it's a shame that this could cloud the villains reputation going forward. (Especially give the problem people seem to have with Joker 2 is that it's NOT a Joker film. Had it been the Joker and Gaga's Harley escaping and going on the rampage throughout Gotham it probably would have done well, but it's because it's all about Arthur and he doesn't do anything Jokeresque that people hated it.) The Riddler is my favourite Batman villain followed by Poison Ivy. I think Batman has the best villains out of all the heroes. While Superman has several good ones in the comic books, filmmakers tend to alternate between Lex and Zod. Superman III was supposed to feature Bizarro but that obviously never happened and Doomsday was in Batman v Superman. |
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Post by burrunjor on Oct 7, 2024 13:18:50 GMT
My Dad- who’s a schoolteacher- just sent me these messages: “A Sixth Former in my class saw Joker 2 and said it was ‘crap’. They’re a big fan of the first film, but thought the ending was awful- told me that it destroyed all that was good about the first film and also eroded Ledger’s incarnation.” He cited the “cutting of the face” as indicative that the ‘new’ Joker was supposed to be Ledger’s. These films can’t be set in the same universe as Christopher Nolan’s trilogy, because Bruce’s parents are killed in entirely different circumstances. If echoing Ledger’s Joker was the creative intent, it’s a piss poor idea even in concept, let alone execution. It wasn't intended to be Ledgers Joker. That's most likely just an homage. Ironically that idea that Arthur will be replaced by someone isn't the worst thing about the movie. To me having read the synopsis I'd say the worst things about it are Gaga's Harley Quinn being a non entity, the fact that nothing really happens when they promised us a Joker/Harley rampage in the trailer "this time I'm not alone" while they're dancing around burning cars and they get as far as an attempted breakout? Also finally the fact that it's just misery porn like Arthur being raped in prison. The idea of multiple Jokers however? That's actually a long running idea that the Joker was never just a man, but a title passed onto different killers and psychopaths (with some hinting that it may be the result of a curse on Gotham. The idea is that Gotham is cursed overall which is why it is such a wretched hive, and that the curse chooses the sick and the disturbed as its avatars, the Jokers.) This idea really began in some respects in the DCAU. The series Batman Beyond that is set 50 years in the future revealed that there will be a gang of psychotic criminals called the Jokerz gang who will continue his legacy. It would also feature the Joker being reborn as it were and there being a second Joker/Clone of sorts in Batman Beyond Return of the Joker who takes over the gang. The Jokerz Gang were later incorporated into the comics, and was featured in other media too with The Dark Knight itself even getting in on the act. Ledgers Joker basically has a Jokerz gang of followers like the guy Harvey Dent threatens with the gun. Gotham would then take the next step and reveal that actually one of these followers, will eventually become the new Joker and another after him ensuring that the legacy will never die (incidentally the same actor that plays the Jokers follower in The Dark Knight that Dent threatens also plays the temporary leader of the Jokers followers in Gotham.) Gotham introduced us to Jerome Valeska, who is a twisted psychopath that we are led to believe will be the Joker, only for him to be killed. Earlier his father who is psychic gave Jerome a prophecy that he would be a curse upon Gotham and we see that shortly after Jerome's death not only does a cult build up around Jerome, but other maniacs start laughing in the same way and killing people, leaving you to wonder if it's just him influencing people through his message, or again something supernatural. Of course the problem with this idea was that Cameron Monaghan who played Jerome was so fantastic in the role people were pissed off at him being written out and not playing a real Joker, so the next year, Jerome's followers bring him back using stolen tech from Doctor Strange and Jerome basically becomes the shows Joker for the next few years, using his followers to cause chaos over Gotham. Eventually however the writers decided not to give up on their original idea, but not wanting to lose Monaghan they revealed that Jerome had a twin brother named Jeremiah also played by Cameron who was basically a good man, if a little paranoid though it's hinted he may have been more twisted than we are led to believe and may have tormented Jerome when he was younger. Either way, Jeremiah is later infected with a special toxin that Jerome created that not only turns his skin white, but drives him insane causing Jeremiah to become the real Joker after Jerome's death. The writers were able to have their cake and eat it too, by keeping Monaghan but still having it that the Joker is a title that can be passed to multiple people. Granted neither Jeremiah or Jerome are ever called the Joker. Still we can take it for granted that Jeremiah will be the Joker as he fights Bruce as Batman at the end and talks about developing a new name for himself. Still even then the fact that there are multiple followers of Jerome and Jeremiah shows that should Jeremiah ever die then the Joker legacy will continue in this universe. Following the success of Gotham, this idea would then be incorporated into the comics where it would be revealed there were actually three different Jokers all along. (Explaining the differences in characterisation, design and such over the years.)  Again the origins of all three villains and why they chose to follow each other and why they all looked so alike is left open ended, and hinted to perhaps be supernatural in nature. Joker 2 was clearly trying to adapt this aspect, which like I said given they had already set up the idea with all the Jokers followers including the one who killed Bruce's parents. However I think the idea fell down in Joker 2's case for 2 reasons. First of all the terrible quality of the film overall, where Arthur doesn't do anything and Gaga like I said is just a fangirl rather than an accomplice. Having the first Joker as it were die before Bruce becomes Batman I think is a bad idea as does make it seem like they were never a proper Joker. This is what almost derailed Gotham until they brought Jerome back and gave him an identical twin. In this case, whilst I'd have been open to having Arthur be replaced, he should have still had a decent run as the Joker. I think that Joker 2 should have been set ten years later and had Gaga's Harley be a vicious, twisted bitch who encourages Arthur to become the Joker again and helps him escape and they go on a big rampage throughout the city. Bruce meanwhile by this stage is wanting to become a vigilante and is at first extremely brutal in his methods, but soon battles the Joker and Harley who he wants revenge on, but over the course of the story he becomes a better man and becomes a better figure to the downtrodden, and a genuine hero, which pisses the Joker and Harley off as they think that was their role, and leads to the Joker wanting to kill Bruce for upstaging him. The movie would end with Bruce adopting the new identity of the Batman to help give the people a better hero. If they'd wanted they could have tied this into Gunn's DCU (Gunn intends to have Batman be older, and it's set in modern day so that could work fine. Meanwhile if they didn't want to use Arthur as the present day Joker, they could have easily had him be succeeded by that point, reveal that there have been three Jokers including Arthur and the current one.) Having Arthur however die when he's done nothing of any real importance, and decades before Batman is created does make it look like he wasn't a proper Joker and yes does undermine those moments from the first film like his connection with Bruce Wayne's family and him meeting the young Bruce that was a great, creepy, atmospheric "two old friends meeting for the first time" moment that now means nothing as Bruce will never fight Arthur. |
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Post by burrunjor on Oct 7, 2024 13:27:20 GMT
It's funny how things change isn't it? When I was young and throughout most of my adult life, there was no question that the Joker was Batman's best villain. To even suggest that the Penguin was on his level would have been seen as ridiculous. He had the largest number of classic stories by far, the greatest number of iconic performances like Jack Nicholson, Mark Hamill, Heath Ledger etc. However now it looks like for the next generation of comic book fans the Penguin may unseat him after all. Mark Hamill has really helped to piss away his legacy with his politics and has made himself a byword for painfully out of touch celeb. Plus his involvement with Ukraine I think will only get worse as time goes on and their links with the Nazis become better known to the public. Meanwhile the Jared Leto Joker was routinely mocked by the public and became a byword for stupid, edgelord hipsters. (Even though I think he was fine in the Snyder Cut, and again it pisses me off seeing the same stupid geek sites that praised Missy slam him as the worst Joker. They lose all credibility that way.) Then there is also the controversy around Harley Quinn who led three box office bombs/dreadful movies in most people's eyes and that AWFUL Harley Quinn spin off series. Finally the second Joker spin off movie has ended up becoming the biggest bomb in DC history, even unseating the Flash which a lot of people did actually really like barring its ending and the controversy around Ezra (who was later acquitted.) As a result The Flash at least got a good audience score. Hell even the Marvels and Morbius got good audience scores, where as Joker 2 bombed in that respect too. The Penguin meanwhile in the last decade first had Robin Lord Taylors sensational performance that carried Gotham, a very popular series that most agree is the best tv thing to come out of DC in the last ten years apart from it would seem ironically a second tv series where the Penguin is the leading character and on top of that the Penguin has starred in one of the few DC film productions of the past few years not to be a total bomb, The Batman. I can honestly see big executives also thinking "oh don't have the Joker in the next movie, he's box office poison" and him not appearing in The Batman film series at all or even James Gunn's DCU. It's a shame as the Joker is still one of the best characters in all of fiction, and believe it or not he isn't as overused as you think. He is in the cartoons that really have been too Joker heavy, but in live action? You know when the last proper Batman vs the Joker film was? 2008. Everything since then in live action has been cameos like the DCEU or the Batman, or the Joker on his own. Of course don't get me wrong here I'm not saying I don't want to see more of the Penguin and other villains who have genuinely been underused like the Mad Hatter, but still it's a shame that this could cloud the villains reputation going forward. (Especially give the problem people seem to have with Joker 2 is that it's NOT a Joker film. Had it been the Joker and Gaga's Harley escaping and going on the rampage throughout Gotham it probably would have done well, but it's because it's all about Arthur and he doesn't do anything Jokeresque that people hated it.) The Riddler is my favourite Batman villain followed by Poison Ivy. I think Batman has the best villains out of all the heroes. While Superman has several good ones in the comic books, filmmakers tend to alternate between Lex and Zod. Superman III was supposed to feature Bizarro but that obviously never happened and Doomsday was in Batman v Superman. Not surprised you like the female villain the best, or as one of the best haha. Heroes with the best villains for me meanwhile are in the following order. Batman/Spider-Man/The Doctor tied for the best. I really can't pick between these characters and I think further proof of how they have the best villains is that their villains have all had their own spin offs from the Venom movies to Joker, to the Dalek Empire audios etc. Their villains truly are as strong characters as the hero in all cases. They're probably among the only 3 where a lot of people's entry into the franchise is via the villain they love. I was both a Dalek and a Symbiote fan before I was either a DW or a Spider-Man fan for instance. After those three, I would definitely place Superman next. He does have a wonderful and colourful collection of rogues, though you're right that it's insane how little they have appeared in other media. People go on about the Joker being overused, he's nothing compared to Lex Luthor who was in 3 of the first four Superman movies. The Joker had the decency to die in the first. After those four it's probably Xena and Buffy and James Bond that have the best villains. Their foes are all great, and some are iconic, but they don't have as many recurring foes as the four above, with many of their villains being one and done stories like Scaramanga or The Mayor who is dead after his first season. The likes of The Flash, Wonder Woman would be the next stage below them meanwhile as they do have quite good villains, but none on the level of the best of Buffy/Xena/Bond like Blofeld, Angelus, Callisto etc, but at least they do have a larger collection of recurring foes. Sadly both are often sneered at for having a poor rogues gallery because of some ridiculous villains like the egg man for WW, but everyone has lame campy villains. That's like saying the Doctors is poor because of the Slitheen. WW and the Flash both have some genuinely great foes like Reverse Flash, Grodd, Ares and Cheetah. Below them would be heroes who've maybe got one or two great villains, like Sherlock Holmes with Moriarty, or Dan Dare with the Mekon, but that's it. Rest are one offs and fairly forgettable in a lot of cases ones at that. Then at the very bottom you've got heroes like Green Arrow who've got hardly any villains and most of the ones they've got are kind of lame, hence why he had to borrow Batman's rogues for the Arrow show. |
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Post by burrunjor on Oct 7, 2024 16:09:30 GMT
"What the world needs now is creativity, sweet creativity, it's the only thing that there's just too little of."
It really has not been a good few years for the Joker and the Master has it? It's funny because I used to think that the Joker was the villain who was the best represented, but oh what a difference a few years can make.
Harley Quinn animated series, Mark Hamill torching his legacy and this movie, are those all worse than Missy, being part of the Timeless children and whatever homoerotic fantasy RTD has cooked up for Ncuti and the Master? Hard to say.
Mad respect for Terry Nation and his family who have never let the Daleks be trashed that badly. People used to hate Terry Nation for that, saying he was a big precious baby about the Daleks and I remember other fans going on about how they hated his family saying "I HATE that the writers have to cowtow to their wishes." Still look at what this same generation did to the Joker and the Master, and indeed how the likes of the Cybermen have also been trashed. Nation and his family whilst not preventing the monsters from starring in some crappy stories like that godawful Missy two parter, have nevertheless prevented quite such a trashing as these representations.
PS the geeks who praise Missy but trash Joker 2 can still f*ck off. I don't care what anyone says Joker 2's not anywhere near as big a bastardisation of the Joker as she was of the Master. At least this version is separate from all the others. I'm not going to get twats on tv tropes, wikipedia, forums telling me the Joker was always a musical character and actually rewrite factual articles and books about him to say that, nor am I going to get Harley Quinn comics actually make her resemble Gaga and follow her characterisation.
Regardless of this movies faults, geek culture turning on it to this extent still to me reeks of herd, sheep behavior in some respects.
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Post by burrunjor on Oct 7, 2024 16:24:33 GMT
Sorry accidentally clicked like on my own post there LOL. Undid it. Nothing sadder than liking your own post.
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Post by Ludders II on Oct 8, 2024 11:32:40 GMT
So where does The Penguin series fit in with Gotham? Is there any kind of timeline or continuity between the two shows? Or are they best viewed as just separate entities?
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Post by Bernard Marx on Oct 8, 2024 11:46:06 GMT
So where does The Penguin series fit in with Gotham? Is there any kind of timeline or continuity between the two shows? Or are they best viewed as just separate entities? They’re altogether separate entities. The Penguin series is ostensibly a sequel to The Batman (2022)- albeit markedly quicker in pace and more playful in its dialogue exchanges- whereas Gotham isn’t connected to any feature film. |
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Post by Ludders II on Oct 8, 2024 11:52:14 GMT
So where does The Penguin series fit in with Gotham? Is there any kind of timeline or continuity between the two shows? Or are they best viewed as just separate entities? They’re altogether separate entities. The Penguin series is ostensibly a sequel to The Batman (2022)- albeit markedly quicker in pace and more playful in its dialogue exchanges- whereas Gotham isn’t connected to any feature film. Cheers Bernard. |
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