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Post by Bernard Marx on Mar 16, 2024 18:12:44 GMT
This story seems to split this forum completely, so this poll result ought to clarify a few things. Am I potentially starting arguments by making this thread?  Frankly, I think it's a wonderfully quotable and charming classic, aided by one of the strongest scores in the classic series and the lead cast having a whale of a time. Just a number of gems scattered throughout the script: "Where are we going?" "Are you talking philosophically or geographically?" "Philosophically." "Then we're going to lunch!" "I say, what a wonderful butler! He's so violent!" "That must be the most important punch in history!" "Well, you're a beautiful woman, probably."* *(If Tennant delivered that line in a 45 minute episode, he'd remove the final addendum and be all over the countess like a rutting fox! "You're a beautiful woma- OH, YESH-AH! Sorry for kissing you- had to scan your body for alien residue! There's a Jagaroth in this place.".) If this story receives more derision than praise, I'll put up another poll pitting it against Love and Monsters. God help me if it fares badly there... |
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Post by burrunjor on Mar 16, 2024 18:26:55 GMT
Love it personally. Definitely the crown jewels of the Williams era and one of the best 70s stories in general. It's endlessly rewatchable, and gets the humour right in that it doesn't go too far and turn the actual story into a joke. I'm sorry but I think for DW that approach of out and out silly episodes just doesn't work. You'll get away with it in something like Buffy or Xena or Supernatural, that are a bit more self aware, and overtly camp in some respects, but DW in contrast I think falls more in line with the likes of HG Wells, Jules Verne etc. It treats its sci fi more seriously, and as the Doctor despite being ott is still at heart a professorial, dusty character, than say a young spunky teenager who might laugh at the absurdities like Buffy or a superhero, then yeah it just falls flat. It looks like your dad being made to do something stupid to try and be funny LOL.
City of Death meanwhile unlike, admittedly other attempts to bring in comedy even in classic who such as The Romans, I think gets the balance right by having the Doctor be a bit witty, and humourous (though not idiotic) but still portrays the villain in a serious way and still makes sure the sci fi concept at its heart is serious and well thought out.
It's also probably Julian Glover's best performance. Funny thing is he loved working with Tom. At that point due to his drinking, stormy relationship with Lalla and the fame going to his head, Tom was known to be in his own words impossible, but apparently Glover said that he felt Tom just cared about the show and role so much that people often misunderstood him. William Hartnell however he did NOT like LOL, though he did at least respect him.
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Post by rushy on Mar 16, 2024 18:54:22 GMT
It's fine. I rant about it to balance out the adoration it gets, but I don't actually hate it. It just doesn't do anything for me.
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Post by iank on Mar 16, 2024 21:20:39 GMT
It's a peerless classic.
Some people just like to be awkward.
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Post by Ludders II on Mar 17, 2024 2:17:41 GMT
I went for the middle option.
I think it's very overrated compared to many other episodes, but it's not terrible, and if I'm in the right mood for it I can give it 7/10. But I do find Tom and Lalla overbearingly smug, by Classic Who standards. I think Shada is a much better Doctor/Romana II story.
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Post by rushy on Mar 17, 2024 2:21:49 GMT
I went for the middle option. I think it's very overrated compared to many other episodes, but it's not terrible, and if I'm in the right mood for it I can give it 7/10. But I do find Tom and Lalla overbearingly smug, by Classic Who standards. I think Shada is a much better Doctor/Romana II story. wisdom prevails |
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Post by RobFilth on Mar 17, 2024 6:38:25 GMT
I went for the middle option too.
Along with "Horror of Fang Rock", it's probably the best from the Williams era, it reminds me very much tonally of "The Time Warrior", but there are still faults with it that make me consider it over-rated.
The character of Duggan is intensely moronic and annoying, the regular cast are incredibly smug and the overall tone is like that of a sit-com. The travelog first episode is incredibly self-indulgent too, but then again I guess Adams on the fly script was so threadbare, they had to fill the space with something, and it has to be commended that JNT filling in for Williams for the second time in the producers chair met these challenges with ease and overcame them with style.(it's a shame he wasn't quite as consistent during his own era)
Yes, the story is enjoyable, holds the attention throughout and has some very good model special effects for the period in which it was made, but it's not what I would call a true-grit Who-classic like Inferno, Seeds of Doom, Dalek Masterplan, Evil of the Daleks etc either.
In fact, truth be known, tonally it is a complete template and inspiration for NuWhos moronicness.(although obviously, it goes without saying that NuWho is far, FAR worse!)
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Post by Bernard Marx on Mar 17, 2024 8:59:31 GMT
In fact, truth be known, tonally it is a complete template and inspiration for NuWhos moronicness.(although obviously, it goes without saying that NuWho is far, FAR worse!) Nah- Season 24 is a more direct template for NuWho than this. City of Death doesn’t have any flying buses, incessant popculture references or pervasive gurning. It’s only a superficial inspiration if one looks at intent- but the *reasoning* behind that intent is altogether different. As noted by Cyberhat elsewhere, Douglas Adams revels in science-fiction concepts amidst his penchant for humour, whereas Davies, Moffat and Chibnall go out of their way- in interviews and in their scripts- to convince people that they *aren’t* science-fiction writers, or “nerds”. Whatever you think of Adams, he isn’t guilty of that in the slightest. |
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Post by Ludders II on Mar 17, 2024 9:39:38 GMT
In fact, truth be known, tonally it is a complete template and inspiration for NuWhos moronicness.(although obviously, it goes without saying that NuWho is far, FAR worse!) Nah- Season 24 is a more direct template for NuWho than this. City of Death doesn’t have any flying buses, incessant popculture references or pervasive gurning. It’s only a superficial inspiration if one looks at intent- but the *reasoning* behind that intent is altogether different. As noted by Cyberhat elsewhere, Douglas Adams revels in science-fiction concepts amidst his penchant for humour, whereas Davies, Moffat and Chibnall go out of their way- in interviews and in their scripts- to convince people that they *aren’t* science-fiction writers, or “nerds”. Whatever you think of Adams, he isn’t guilty of that in the slightest. I'm not sure that even S24 deserves to described as any kind of template for NuWho. It does have a certain naivete, and looking kindly on it, even charm. Neither quality could ever be applied to NuWho. If there is a template, I'd say it was TVM. I do think though that Tennant drew directly on the OTT/sillier side of Tom circa late Williams, along with Peter Davison. I suppose you could say that at least he did draw from actual Doctor Who, which can't be said of Eccleston who clearly didn't have a clue about the program. |
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Post by Brian MK.II on Mar 17, 2024 12:26:32 GMT
I love City of Death. I prefer Shada a great deal more for it's Cambridge setting and slightly more ambitious story but City nonetheless is a fun and imaginative tale with interesting science fiction concepts and backed up by Adams wit and memorable quotable dialogue. I'm not sure that even S24 deserves to described as any kind of template for NuWho. It does have a certain naivete, and looking kindly on it, even charm. Neither quality could ever be applied to NuWho. I'm a long way from being a fan of it but another two things in Season 24's defence would be not only was the tone forced upon them but at least JNT and Cartmel realised that the light entertainment approach was a failure and shook things up for the next two seasons, improving leaps and bounds in doing so. |
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Post by Bernard Marx on Mar 17, 2024 12:43:57 GMT
I'm not sure that even S24 deserves to described as any kind of template for NuWho. It does have a certain naivete, and looking kindly on it, even charm. Neither quality could ever be applied to NuWho. It’s not an overarching template for NuWho, I agree. However, relative to City of Death- at least going beyond Tennant’s desire to emulate Tom Baker in Season 17 (minus the wit and dynamism)- I’d say it’s closer to it. But yes, as noted above (and elsewhere on the forum), it was a season made under duress. As such, its weaknesses are excusable in context. Re- the McGann film. Even with the TV Movie, NuWho undoubtedly cherry-picked certain facets (coerced romance, orchestral music, cop-out resolutions) but discarded others (allusions to Puccini, Da Vinci and HG Wells; McGann’s demeanour and generally in-character dialogue; The TARDIS interior). |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2024 18:00:43 GMT
The plot is perfectly fine and location shoots are always inherently charming to me, so seeing Tom and Lalla running around Paris is a delight. I just don't find it funny though.
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Post by Ludders II on Mar 17, 2024 18:05:27 GMT
I just don't find it funny though. Neither do I. 😉 |
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Post by Bernard Marx on Mar 17, 2024 18:25:30 GMT
I just don't find it funny though. Neither do I. 😉 Get a room, you two! |
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Post by Ludders II on Mar 17, 2024 18:31:26 GMT
😆 Don't worry, I don't think you'll be needing to wheel out Love & Monsters. 😉 |
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