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Post by Cherry Pepsi Maxil on Mar 5, 2024 13:02:25 GMT
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Post by burrunjor on Mar 5, 2024 14:13:23 GMT
What is wrong with the makers of classic who being such push over, self loathing sell outs, always praising the bastardisation of their own work?
Did the c*nts in the 90s and 00s really make them lose confidence that badly?
I mean Jesus Christ Michael Keaton openly admitted he hadn't watched any Batman movies after Batman Returns. He didn't need to shit all over his own to try and win favour with the new audiences. Hell nothing that came after him was as bad a bastardisation anyway LOL.
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Post by rushy on Mar 5, 2024 15:43:24 GMT
What is wrong with the makers of classic who being such push over, self loathing sell outs, always praising the bastardisation of their own work? Because most of them don't treat themselves as an authority on Doctor Who. They did their work and then moved on, content to let the next generation take over. Even if they don't like watching it now, they'd probably chalk it up to being out of touch with the changes in television. Or they just don't care about the show beyond their own experiences with it. It's not their problem anymore. There's nothing to gain by complaining and everything to gain by raking in that sweet convention cash and being seen as a beloved elderly statesman. It's a bit different with a show like Blake's 7, because Terry Nation was so intimately involved with the creation, and you had Chris Boucher as script editor the entire time. There's a much stronger authorial print, so to speak. Whereas Sydney Newman and Verity just kind of put Doctor Who together and let it loose, to be whatever it needed to be at the time. |
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Post by burrunjor on Mar 5, 2024 16:38:44 GMT
What is wrong with the makers of classic who being such push over, self loathing sell outs, always praising the bastardisation of their own work? Because most of them don't treat themselves as an authority on Doctor Who. They did their work and then moved on, content to let the next generation take over. Even if they don't like watching it now, they'd probably chalk it up to being out of touch with the changes in television. Or they just don't care about the show beyond their own experiences with it. It's not their problem anymore. There's nothing to gain by complaining and everything to gain by raking in that sweet convention cash and being seen as a beloved elderly statesman. It's a bit different with a show like Blake's 7, because Terry Nation was so intimately involved with the creation, and you had Chris Boucher as script editor the entire time. There's a much stronger authorial print, so to speak. Whereas Sydney Newman and Verity just kind of put Doctor Who together and let it loose, to be whatever it needed to be at the time. If only Russell T Davies and his Fitzroy pals would follow suit. Meanwhile a lot of them were happy to stick the knife into JNT in the 80s for making it too campy, like Terrance Dicks which is why they pissed me off when they kiss RTD's arse. To me they were just being shallow and going along with what the media said. Sadly even creative people can be shallow that way. |
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Post by UncleDeadly on Mar 5, 2024 16:57:55 GMT
You're better off with an STD, mate...
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Post by Ludders II on Mar 5, 2024 21:18:12 GMT
It's a combination of populism and falling into line with 'popular' opinion because they want to be seen as up with modern day cultural trends, rather than grumpy old has-beens.
Add in a dash of senility, and hey presto.
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Post by iank on Mar 6, 2024 4:11:06 GMT
Bet Stef Coburn's impressed...
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Post by burrunjor on Mar 6, 2024 10:49:54 GMT
Bet Stef Coburn's impressed... To be fair he's a crazy bastard too LOL. |
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Post by rushy on Mar 6, 2024 10:57:04 GMT
If only Russell T Davies and his Fitzroy pals would follow suit. True, but at the same time, I think people treat genre TV/movies very differently nowadays. It's so much more prestigious. Probably more so than doing a successful Shakespeare adaptation, which would have been unthinkable in the 1970s. We might very well have seen ten seasons of Dicks/Letts if they'd thought it'd go on to define how they're remembered. It's hard to blame them for hitching their wagons to it with the amount of nerd adulation that surrounds them. |
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Post by Bernard Marx on Mar 7, 2024 22:52:09 GMT
I don’t believe Waris Hussein genuinely thinks this. Isn’t he on record of criticising NuWho’s excess of soap-opera romance and sudden “kissing”?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2024 5:12:06 GMT
If I was his age with a solid career behind me, I can't comprehend still giving a shit about sucking up to editorials. I'd just run my mouth about any old crap without caring who it offended. So I wouldn't be surprised if he genuinely believes this.
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Post by iank on Mar 8, 2024 6:20:03 GMT
It's sad when senility sets in.
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Post by Bernard Marx on Mar 8, 2024 8:39:58 GMT
It's a combination of populism and falling into line with 'popular' opinion because they want to be seen as up with modern day cultural trends, rather than grumpy old has-beens. Add in a dash of senility, and hey presto. This would make a lot of sense if NuWho was still popular or prevalent within the cultural zeitgeist, but is it popular now? Its raw audience has dwindled and, to my knowledge, its public profile has stagnated- it’s certainly lesser than it was a little under 20 years ago, or even 10 years ago. For what it’s worth, there are plenty of people my age I’ve talked to who think this new era is dogshit. They were kids when Davies’ first era aired. |
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Post by burrunjor on Mar 8, 2024 10:10:00 GMT
It's a combination of populism and falling into line with 'popular' opinion because they want to be seen as up with modern day cultural trends, rather than grumpy old has-beens. Add in a dash of senility, and hey presto. This would make a lot of sense if NuWho was still popular or prevalent within the cultural zeitgeist, but is it popular now? Its raw audience has dwindled and, to my knowledge, its public profile has stagnated- it’s certainly lesser than it was a little under 20 years ago, or even 10 years ago. For what it’s worth, there are plenty of people my age I’ve talked to who think this new era is dogshit. They were kids when Davies’ first era aired. That's it exactly, but DW fandom and the people associated with the show are about 15 years behind. That's what makes it so funny. For years I and other people here were told by sites like DW wiki general, TV Tropes, Gallifrey Base etc, that we were out of touch, still living in the 80s for wanting to go back to the classic style, just not aware of what the public wanted like RTD etc . Of course our arguments were always strawmanned by the fandom elites. It was always "you want to bring back Tom Baker, have dreadful effects, 9 episode long stories etc." Rather than an actually tackling the question of, just put the focus on adventure and sci fi, rather than soap opera and identity politics, don't keep rewriting the past for the sake of it, if you're going to feature a classic villain, write them in character, make changes happen naturally, cast an eccentric, offbeat character actor in the role, and yes now that shows are binged in a oner, maybe try the serialized format or longer maybe hour and 20 minute long episodes again to let the story breathe etc. However again the fandom elites and the Fitzroy Crowd are still stuck within the early 00s and still think Heat Magazine and the X-Factor type television are popular, and sadly as their views are so dominant, and as we know they can be such bullies in forcing their opinions (ask Christopher Eccelston), a lot of normal people, including those associated with the show who can't be arsed doing all the research the way an obsessive like me can LOL, buy into it. I hate to say but even here on this site and the previous Hive, you got critics of New Who cowed by the Fitzroy's bullying into thinking only their way would have worked. Bryan Braddock, who sadly we haven't seen for years I remember coming out with "I would have much rather had a gothic horror type DW run by Mark Gatiss, with Reece Shearsmith as the Ian Chesterton type character and David Warner as the Doctor, but that wouldn't have gone down with the public and flopped." Why would it? Why just assume that would happen? If that had been well made, with scary stories, good production values it could have been a hit? Even if you think it couldn't have worked without the romance angle, just give the Ian type character a Barbara type he can eventually elope with LOL. I guess my choice in that scenario would be Ingrid Oliver as the Barbara type? Or maybe Naomie Harris, or Alison King, someone like that, a very English babe who would be feisty, but relatable and kind. PS I'm not saying oh Bryan was a wimp unlike me LOL, again more just that he couldn't be arsed doing all the obsessive research like I can. Meanwhile in the real world New Who was last a mainstream series in 2014 before series 8 aired. Fresh off the 50th and people wanting to see what Capaldi could do, there was a lot of excitement for it. That all dwindled with his first series and his second was a gigantic flop as a result, so much so that it was taken off the air and retooled for his third which was an even bigger flop to the point where he was basically let go and another retooling was in order with Jodie. That got a spurt for a few episodes because of the novelty and the political atmosphere, before it crashed and burned and became an even bigger flop, season by season than Capaldi ever was until it was finally axed, with only a last minute reprise from RTD saving it, and an equally out of touch Disney backing it. Even then however for its 60th anniversary story it was still a gigantic flop, with viewers going down every episode. In fact the 60th had so little fanfare, who the f*ck was even aware that was actually the 60th? I still can't believe that was the actual 60th anniversary? I still keep thinking "oh this year we'll see lots of DW stuff like we did for the 50th". RTD's first special, the highest rated got less than half of the 50th, and even then they had to fiddle the viewers over a period of almost a month and a half to say it got viewers in the 9 million region, which are still not as big as the 50th got in one night! It looks set to flop spectacularly meanwhile in the upcoming season, with RTD also having provoked a huge backlash and in some ways torched his legacy. By the time both of his up coming flop seasons end in 2025, that will be 12 years New Who has not been a mainstream or successful show, vs 7 years it was a big series. Even then those 7 years do not represent the peak of its popularity like we have always been told either. As I've been over, the facts show that Hartnell, Jon Pertwee, Tom Baker and even Peter Davsion all were objectively more popular with viewers than David Tennant or Matt Smith where. In fact hilariously Colin Baker's first season was comparable in terms of popularity to Tennant and Matt's first season. Meanwhile abroad the 80s again saw 9 times as many people watch it in America than in Matt's time, which was the peak of its popularity, and its fandom for the first and only time being larger in America too. Meanwhile even within the New Who era, Matt Smith was actually more popular than David Tennant anyway! Matt was seen by far more people around the world than Tennant, broke the international market among new who doctors (and to be fair seems to have been the most popular internationally since Tom Baker overall.) Also, and I know this is just my own personal experience, but during the Matt Smith era DW was something that everybody watched. In the Davies era whilst it was popular, it often got made fun of because it was too silly. You know it was like fittingly, a soap opera that everybody watches, but nobody admits to watching it as it is seen as corny? Matt's era however was in contrast popular among hipster students LOL and seen as a cool, edgy thing, though again I freely admit those are just my experiences. The fact that I was at Uni when Matt aired also probably helps LOL. Still either way, you an see how the Fitzroy's grip on DW is based mostly on lies. Matt was the first to break America, prior to RTD, DW was just a cheap joke, RTD brought us to new levels of success. All bullshit and even if it wasn't, it's all out of date anyway. Why assume a style from 2005 that represented new heights of popularity will still be mainstream in 2024? That is literally like filling something in the mid 80s full of Go Go dancers, Beatles music, and having references to hippies as the youth of today. FFS I feel out of touch in my 30s with my music like Paloma Faith, Amy Winehouse, Noisettes etc. RTD's peak came before most of that! It just goes to show you what the power of bullshitting can do. |
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Post by Ludders II on Mar 8, 2024 10:11:42 GMT
It's a combination of populism and falling into line with 'popular' opinion because they want to be seen as up with modern day cultural trends, rather than grumpy old has-beens. Add in a dash of senility, and hey presto. This would make a lot of sense if NuWho was still popular or prevalent within the cultural zeitgeist, but is it popular now? Its raw audience has dwindled and, to my knowledge, its public profile has stagnated- it’s certainly lesser than it was a little under 20 years ago, or even 10 years ago. For what it’s worth, there are plenty of people my age I’ve talked to who think this new era is dogshit. They were kids when Davies’ first era aired. Perhaps not as popular with the general public anymore, but in the BBC/Luvvie circles in which Hussain is associating himself in that article and subequent links, I think it's still very much the in thing. |
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