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Post by Monster X on Dec 9, 2023 7:32:07 GMT
This is a question I wasn't sure I'd ever ask, but there's probably more fans of both the 1963-1989 and 2005- versions of the show on here than on the 'old' Hives - how do you like both New and Classic Doctor Who? Personally I think there are moments in Nu Who that are strong, albeit often different in tone from the old show - Torchwood s3, The Girl Who Waited, Blink, Mummy On The Orient Express, the one with the scarecrows, the one with the 'gangers', Sleep No More, Dalek, Utopia and Into The Dalek - and of course the old show had its clunkers, notably s24. But for the most part I hold the old version of 'Dr Who' in high esteem and can't stand the new one, so why do those of you who are proudly 'bi-Who-ual' like both, and (how) do you see them as being the same show? Fire away! I simply can't reconcile the classic series with NuWho - they are entirely different shows - chalk and cheese. |
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Post by mott1 on Dec 9, 2023 8:18:49 GMT
Agree completely on The Day Of The Doctor - an indulgent mess hiding behind a big actor name, a returned heartthrob and a legendary cameo. Also changing the continuity - better just to start from scratch.
It is also fair to say that the old show didn't exactly discourage the new one from doing stupid stuff with The Master by bringing him back repeatedly when he was originally to have died heroically saving Pert (though Nu Who has to take a lot of the blame for stuff like Missy...)
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Post by burrunjor on Dec 9, 2023 10:29:50 GMT
The circumstances are completely different now. Plus even if classic who had run to the 13th Doctor, then HE would have had to have been the ending. It would have reached its natural end, and honestly by that point the Daleks, Cybermen, Master would all have reached a natural end too. Why? The Daleks, the Cybermen and the Master are timeless. There was never a consistent timeline for them in the classic series. And even if there had been, there's no reason why they should suddenly be wiped out. I mean, if the Daleks can come back from "Evil", the Cybermen from "Tenth Planet" and the Master from "Planet of Fire", there's nothing stopping them. Those were pretty definitive endings, and yet none of them were permanent. There will always be an excuse to bring back popular characters. And if nobody got bored of them by season 26, they won't be by season 52 either. Not as long as the writers invent new and interesting scenarios for them. Which we know they can. Big Finish continues to do so. Even without that, we can always have new villains. The show managed fine without the Daleks in seasons 13-16, without the Cybermen in seasons 7-11 and without the Master for absolute ages. As we saw in "Time of the Doctor", there is no necessity for 13 to be the last incarnation. There was nothing too lore-stretching about a new regeneration cycle, an idea that goes all the way back to "Five Doctors". The mechanics of the classic series permit it to run in perpetuity. The Master coming back after Planet of Fire without any explanation because there can't be after he was definitively killed that way, is one of the shoddiest, laziest and most awful pieces of writing in the entire history of the classic era. Meanwhile getting round the 13 lives rule in Time of the Doctor was similarly bad, lazy, stupid writing that undermined decades of lore and also made the Doctor a more boring character. Also as I have said it can't run in perpetuity because no work of fiction can. The human race won't run in perpetuity. Everything needs an ending at some point. Sooner or later DW will have explored earth's history to the point where there is no wiggle room, the Daleks, Cybermen and Master's stories will have been worn out as there is only so many times you can have them invade somewhere. You say that they hadn't been worn down in 26 years, actually they HAD hence why they all now only appeared once every Doctor, as opposed to 5 times in Hartnell's era. Don't mistake the format for DW giving it a longer life, with true immortality which doesn't exist for any work of fiction. Again read my Marvel example. the biggest mistake New Who did was start tinkering with the continuity. Going back to undo the Time War, bringing the Time Lords back, killing them off again... this lack of consistency is the number one reason that puts people off the show.
Yes, I've been saying that for about 10 years, but again read my Marvel example and tell me why do you think that happens (aside from political ideology?) The writers act like "since this is a show that goes on forever, we have to reset everything for the next guy, because we can't have someone in 50 years time have to reference our story, or deprive later writers a chance to writer for characters like the Time Lords." Or "we need to refresh DW, but we can't lose the old fans by making it a remake, so let's basically remake it in universe." However if each production, not Doctor, but production like the BBC Wales version were its own thing, then they wouldn't have to worry about that. They wouldn't think "oh we've killed the Time Lords off FOREVER, meaning any future writer with a good idea for them is f*cked by our story." They can instead think "well whoever does their own version of DW in its own universe can have Time Lords if they want, but in our version they are dead forever." Like I said far from the usual anti multiverse hipster complaint of "nothing matters" actually that ensures that it does! None of these awful retcons in New Who would have happened if it had been made as what it really is, a loose sequel to the original, that's continuity doesn't have to go on for all eternity. Undoing the earth being aware of aliens that had been built up for 5 years in the Davies era, Time Lords coming back, gender bending Time Lords, Hartnell not being the first, the awful Big Finish crossover stories with old and new who companions, crowbarring Jodie into Scratchman, merging New Who and Old Who, they ALL stem from that. Again your opposition to the multiverse formula seems to boil down to "I don't like the odd, very rare potential crossover story where the Doctor from another universe meets up with the current one because they are gimmicky" and "multiverses are a boring Hollywood cliche". Meanwhile the other alternative leads to the very thing you hate, lack of consistency, no stakes, it eventually turning into a long meandering contradictory mess where the Doctor in one continuity has about 52 origins, Ace has about 47 endings "according to one account the Doctor was a magic unicorn from another universe and Ace flew to the planet Mars" on Doctor Who wiki. Surely one gimmicky crossover made for one anniversary is better than that for the creative freedom the different productions= different universes entails? Just remove "Day of the Doctor", "Hell Bent" and "Timeless Children", and the show would be fine. The Doctor can just move on from the War.
No Missy would still exist and she is the true beginning of the end. |
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Post by rushy on Dec 9, 2023 19:57:32 GMT
The Master coming back after Planet of Fire without any explanation because there can't be after he was definitively killed that way, is one of the shoddiest, laziest and most awful pieces of writing in the entire history of the classic era. Meanwhile getting round the 13 lives rule in Time of the Doctor was similarly bad, lazy, stupid writing that undermined decades of lore and also made the Doctor a more boring character. Also as I have said it can't run in perpetuity because no work of fiction can. The writers act like "since this is a show that goes on forever, we have to reset everything for the next guy, because we can't have someone in 50 years time have to reference our story, or deprive later writers a chance to writer for characters like the Time Lords." Or "we need to refresh DW, but we can't lose the old fans by making it a remake, so let's basically remake it in universe." Again your opposition to the multiverse formula seems to boil down to "I don't like the odd, very rare potential crossover story where the Doctor from another universe meets up with the current one because they are gimmicky" and "multiverses are a boring Hollywood cliche". Meanwhile the other alternative leads to the very thing you hate, lack of consistency, no stakes, it eventually turning into a long meandering contradictory mess where the Doctor in one continuity has about 52 origins, Ace has about 47 endings "according to one account the Doctor was a magic unicorn from another universe and Ace flew to the planet Mars" on Doctor Who wiki. We'll just have to agree to disagree. I didn't mind the Master's return or the extra regeneration cycle at all (especially the latter, which was set up years ago as a possibility). The show won't run in perpetuity, true, but that's not the fault of the formula. It's the fault of the people making it, who think they have to create reboots and retcons to keep things interesting when that's never been a requirement. The Doctor Who formula is timeless. If you don't mess with it, just keep it functioning and healthy, it will run for as long as audiences watch it. No need to reinvent the wheel. And yes, that is what my multiverse formula dislike boils down to. I think that's quite sufficient, and I don't see any contradictory mess happening. The stuff you mentioned (52 origins, 47 endings) mainly originates from books, comics and other expanded universe material that has no bearing on the TV show. |
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Post by burrunjor on Dec 9, 2023 20:04:35 GMT
The Master coming back after Planet of Fire without any explanation because there can't be after he was definitively killed that way, is one of the shoddiest, laziest and most awful pieces of writing in the entire history of the classic era. Meanwhile getting round the 13 lives rule in Time of the Doctor was similarly bad, lazy, stupid writing that undermined decades of lore and also made the Doctor a more boring character. Also as I have said it can't run in perpetuity because no work of fiction can. The writers act like "since this is a show that goes on forever, we have to reset everything for the next guy, because we can't have someone in 50 years time have to reference our story, or deprive later writers a chance to writer for characters like the Time Lords." Or "we need to refresh DW, but we can't lose the old fans by making it a remake, so let's basically remake it in universe." Again your opposition to the multiverse formula seems to boil down to "I don't like the odd, very rare potential crossover story where the Doctor from another universe meets up with the current one because they are gimmicky" and "multiverses are a boring Hollywood cliche". Meanwhile the other alternative leads to the very thing you hate, lack of consistency, no stakes, it eventually turning into a long meandering contradictory mess where the Doctor in one continuity has about 52 origins, Ace has about 47 endings "according to one account the Doctor was a magic unicorn from another universe and Ace flew to the planet Mars" on Doctor Who wiki. We'll just have to agree to disagree. I didn't mind the Master's return or the extra regeneration cycle at all (especially the latter, which was set up years ago as a possibility). The show won't run in perpetuity, true, but that's not the fault of the formula. It's the fault of the people making it, who think they have to create reboots and retcons to keep things interesting when that's never been a requirement. The Doctor Who formula is timeless. If you don't mess with it, just keep it functioning and healthy, it will run for as long as audiences watch it. No need to reinvent the wheel. And yes, that is what my multiverse formula dislike boils down to. I think that's quite sufficient, and I don't see any contradictory mess happening. The stuff you mentioned (52 origins, 47 endings) mainly originates from books, comics and other expanded universe material that has no bearing on the TV show. That's a stupid reason to dislike a formula which has dozens and dozens of benefits and would have stopped the abomination that you saw tonight. Also you don't seem to get that those retcons happen because when it runs in perpetuity then it goes past its natural end point like 13 lives and therefore has to come up with lots of bullshit ways to keep it fresh. The usual bullshit of just pretend a bad plot device never happened is contradictory as you don't like multiverses because you say that no continuity matters? Why then does it bother you if they are officially different? |
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Post by rushy on Dec 9, 2023 20:17:41 GMT
But it didn't go past its natural end point XD
The bullshit ways designed to keep it fresh are exactly that... bullshit. From writers who don't know any better. That's not the fault of Doctor Who for being old, it's just idiocy. It's like if I butted in during TNG season 7 and retconned Data to have been created by the Borg. The show was doing fine. It's not its fault that some brainiac came up with a dumb idea.
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Post by burrunjor on Dec 9, 2023 20:25:13 GMT
But it didn't go past its natural end point XD The bullshit ways designed to keep it fresh are exactly that... bullshit. From writers who don't know any better. That's not the fault of Doctor Who for being old, it's just idiocy. It's like if I butted in during TNG season 7 and retconned Data to have been created by the Borg. The show was doing fine. It's not its fault that some brainiac came up with a dumb idea. Except it will. Sooner or later. I agree that they hastened its end, with it now not even being the same lead character anymore. Still sooner or later that happens. Again look at my Marvel example above. What happened to it will happen to DW. That's why reboots exist. |
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Post by iank on Dec 9, 2023 20:53:35 GMT
New Who is long past its natural end point lol
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Post by burrunjor on Oct 27, 2024 13:26:28 GMT
No, it isn't? There was no need to reboot anything in-universe. If a show can manage just fine in terms of continuity for 26 years, there's no reason why it cannot manage 26 more. Doctor Who by design does not require a natural endpoint, and I definitely wouldn't count Survival as an endpoint by anything other than default. This whole idea of "McCoy tying up loose ends" is just fan speculation to make his era seem more final than it really was. Any of the old villains could just as easily resurface in a new and interesting way. Yes it is. There absolutely is no reason to assume DW could go on for another 26 seasons in that continuity. That's ridiculous. The circumstances are completely different now. Plus even if classic who had run to the 13th Doctor, then HE would have had to have been the ending. It would have reached its natural end, and honestly by that point the Daleks, Cybermen, Master would all have reached a natural end too. Let's compare it to another similar franchise shall we? Marvel and DC. Now I am ONLY talking about the comics here, and I am only comparing them because like DW, they seemingly have no end in sight. In their case it's because they are cartoon characters who don't age. Now Marvel has adopted a floating timeline formula. In actual fact the multiverse is never used for anything but the odd crisis story. All of Marvel's main series are set within the same continuity. Now that worked for them I'd say up until the 90s. From that point on, it just became ridiculous. I'll buy that less time passes in comic book world to an extent. Like Spider-Man was a teenager in the early 60s, and is still only in his early 30s at most in the mid 90s. That's a reasonable break from reality. Meanwhile over the course of those 30 years, we've seen the characters develop, stories come to an end, things naturally move on, like the Green Goblin, Spidey's archfoe being killed in a classic story, him making peace with his other arch foe Venom etc. Also Spider-Man himself has grown up and is happily married to Mary Jane, she becomes pregnant, Aunt May dies and makes peace with her nephew. However past the mid 90s, then Marvel have to start reseting and undoing all of these developments because it does become harder to keep it going with them. For instance the Green Goblin is a classic character and it's understandable young writers would want to write for him. I would if I was doing a Spider-Man thing. However they can't because he is dead, so they have to do some bullshit story to bring him back. At the same time however what was the solution to this problem, as either you are telling subsequent generations they can't write for a great character, or you tell other writers never to develop and end stories? Similarly Spidey getting married and having kids ages him, brings in too many complications and Aunt May is similarly too big an icon to leave dead, so they have to do other bullshit retcons, like have it that it was just an actress who died, then they had him sell his marriage to the devil to make him single again. Also on top of all that, the floating timeline is an utter joke now as here we have Spider-Man in the 21st century who is still a 30 year old, despite his stories having explicitly mentioned him being a teenager in the 60s. FFS in the Marvel universe, the fall of the Berlin wall, Trump, 9/11, Vietnam all have happened in about 10 years at the most. Also how the hell do we have guys like the Punisher who were Vietnam vets still in their 30s. It's an absolute joke and a mess, and worst of all you know ANYTHING that happens in Marvel doesn't matter. Any character death like Wolverine and Captain America you know will be undone. Any development like a marriage will have to be erased in some stupid, pointless way. Nothing matters. Now DC actually had a good alternative to this. They revealed in the 1960s that all of their stories from the 30s to the mid 50s took place in another universe, rather confusingly called earth 2, whilst all of their stories from the mid 50s to the then present took place on earth 1. This allowed DC to actually develop and end their original characters. Batman of earth 2, married Catwoman, had a daughter who became a new hero in her own right, and eventually died, and NONE of that was undone. At the same time, the new mainline Batman had a fresh start and was his own thing, with only the very rare crossover with his daughter from the other earth linking them that was fine. Now if DC had been smart, they would have kept this formula up and had say every mainline story set on earth 1 until say 1980, then wrapped up all of their earth 1 stories and then jumped to another earth for the next twenty years, and now and again returned to earth 1 for the odd story. However the ORIGINAL anti multiverse hipster Marv Wolfman f*cked it up, by doing Crisis on infinite Earth's that destroyed the multiverse, to make everything be set in one continuity, which then ran into the same problems as Marvel, nothing could change, characters weren't aging and it was stretching credibility, which forced them to bring the multiverse back. Now with this in mind, what the f*ck is wrong with applying this same formula to DW? Rather than undo its stories like the earth invasions, 13 regenerations, etc. Just have that okay, this version of DW, this production is one universe, and another production is another. That doesn't split every Doctor up into a different universe, it just ensures that again each version like say the BBC Wales version and the Bad Wolf version and Shalka are different realities. Far from the usual anti multiverse hipster complaint of "nothing matters" this ensures that it DOES as this production doesn't have to be made with the knowledge of "this goes on forever, so anything that happens now will have to be undone in a few years." All the multiverse does is, just a cool, rare crossover where you can link them up every now and again. That's it! Apparently rather than that, you'd rather it all just go on as the same, never ending story, which again is a contradiction in terms. On the one hand you want it to all be one story, but when I point out eventually the story comes to a natural end, and you'll have to ignore, it then gets to a "well who cares about the continuity". That is what is so f*cking frustrating about the anti multiverse hipster stuff. Meanwhile this Saturday you will see exactly where the no multiverse law gets you as RTD tries to similarly give it a fresh start in universe. Finally as for the 7th Doctor being the end, well that is just because he was the last of the classics. Ideally classic who should have reached the 13th Doctor and ended it there. However it got cut short, and now that is its ending. The original was one work of fiction that largely had an unbroken run, then ended and after it ended there were half a dozen or so different versions of what happened next, many of which were the official sequel at the time. There can never be an official sequel. All you can do are alternate sequels, or remakes and reboots. That's it. That way future writers can actually end their stories, not get bogged down in stamping themselves over the lore and history and the original is safe. Again only a "I want it to be all the one thing" mentality which I've pointed out why that has to end sooner or later and let's hate multiverses because a few multiverse superhero films were crap seems to be the reason not to do it? I still stand by this. I just find it funny how nobody can use multiverses properly? They're either just cheap nostalgia bait like Deadpool and Wolverine, or they do the worst thing and have the universes the previous version took place in be destroyed, like DC have done to the Michael Keaton universe, the universe of Batman the animated series, Smallville, the 90s Flash show, even f*cking Superfriends, which completely undermines all of those previous versions? Why can't people just use it in the logical way of if you have a story with no ending, use the multiverse to break it up? It's so straight forward and simple? Anyway I found this cool cover of Martha's theme, which I thought I'd share here since this is a reasonably positive thread about New Who. |
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Post by Cherry Pepsi Maxil on Oct 27, 2024 13:40:08 GMT
I don't like NuWho as a whole, but there's stuff I enjoy from several eras. It's a bit like how I feel about the classic series. There are periods of the show I value over others. Sometimes I'm in the mood for every era while other times I just want to relax with the McCoy era. I need to stop caring about what eras and episodes I like and just like them. I get so OCD about it all. I feel like I need to love everything in order to be a fan.
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Post by Ludders II on Oct 27, 2024 13:59:19 GMT
I wouldn't worry about being a 'fan' if I were you. Most of them are twats. 😆
I simply cannot enjoy NuWho. It just has too many annoyances that I can't ignore.
Even my least favourite Classic era stuff, (mostly S23 and S24) have the redeeming quality of a kind of innocence and charm that NuWho will always be far wide of the mark of, because it's all so terribly contrived.
But if you're able to separate the two entities and get something out of each, then fair play to you. But don't do it out of some kind of preconceived notions of what you need to do to be a 'fan'. Just watch it because you enjoy it. Nobody has the right to say you're not allowed to enjoy it.
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Post by Bernard Marx on Oct 27, 2024 17:13:12 GMT
I wouldn't worry about being a 'fan' if I were you. Most of them are twats. 😆 I have no issue with being perceived as someone who appreciates quality Doctor Who, but to be perceived as a “fan” makes my skin crawl. I wonder why? |
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Post by burrunjor on Oct 27, 2024 17:15:49 GMT
I wouldn't worry about being a 'fan' if I were you. Most of them are twats. 😆 I have no issue with being perceived as someone who appreciates quality Doctor Who, but to be perceived as a “fan” makes my skin crawl. I wonder why? You look at Gallifrey Reddit and Gallifrey Base have you. |
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Post by Ludders II on Oct 27, 2024 17:45:10 GMT
I wouldn't worry about being a 'fan' if I were you. Most of them are twats. 😆 I have no issue with being perceived as someone who appreciates quality Doctor Who, but to be perceived as a “fan” makes my skin crawl. I wonder why? Perhaps because of what modern Who fandom is like. I mean who would want to be associated with that? 😆 But yes I'm the same. I've always leaned towards loud and proud as a Dr Who fan. But now, not so much. 😆 But seriously, I never hide it even now, but I'm always keen to point out that I'm a Classic Who purist. |
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Post by iank on Oct 27, 2024 17:57:44 GMT
I love classic, and it was one of my founding fandoms as a kid, but it's now still just one aspect of a much wider love for films and television in general (well, until lately  ). I think I shudder slightly at the idea of being thought of as one of these weirdos whose entire lives revolves around it, though... |
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