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Post by rushy on Nov 26, 2023 17:20:27 GMT
Nah Death in Heaven was the point of no return. I meant in terms of canon. A new showrunner could still come and make the show work just fine with the changes introduced in "Day of the Doctor". It's not a retcon I'm happy with, but it left Gallifrey in a state of mystery to where anything could happen. In "Hell Bent", the Doctor pretty much makes it clear that he doesn't care about them at all (directly contradicting all of New Who) and that entire storyline is left dead in the water, as is the character. |
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Post by burrunjor on Nov 26, 2023 17:23:55 GMT
Nah Death in Heaven was the point of no return. I meant in terms of canon. A new showrunner could still come and make the show work just fine with the changes introduced in "Day of the Doctor". It's not a retcon I'm happy with, but it left Gallifrey in a state of mystery to where anything could happen. In "Hell Bent", the Doctor pretty much makes it clear that he doesn't care about them at all (directly contradicting all of New Who) and that entire storyline is left dead in the water, as is the character. I agree to some extent. I see it like this. Death in Heaven completely destroys New Who's ability to be a sequel to the original. Missy cannot be the same character as the burned Master or Delgado without it being a parody. However at that point it does still work as a loose sequel/reboot, one of many alternate sequels. However Hellbent f*cks new who up within itself, by throwing away its own stories. All the big build up of 7 years of bringing Gallifrey back, all that we were promised in the 50th "you have so much work to do." And then, nah they're back and that's that. Nobody gives a shit. |
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Post by rushy on Nov 26, 2023 17:27:16 GMT
people have defended it as "well, the Doctor wanted to leave Gallifrey all the time in Classic Who"
completely ignoring the context that his home was fine when he left it as opposed to now. Also that he has full military support on Gallifrey in his Hell Bent presidency (which he certainly didn't in the classic era), and could easily reform the Time Lords' society to restore their original purpose. After that, he could also sneak them off Gallifrey to separate colonies so the Daleks would have no way of tracing them.
End result? The Doctor is free to travel again (because he's not in charge of a massive civilization) and we have dozens of fringe Time Lord societies out there ripe for a revisit in the future...
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Post by burrunjor on Nov 26, 2023 17:46:09 GMT
people have defended it as "well, the Doctor wanted to leave Gallifrey all the time in Classic Who" completely ignoring the context that his home was fine when he left it as opposed to now. Also that he has full military support on Gallifrey in his Hell Bent presidency (which he certainly didn't in the classic era), and could easily reform the Time Lords' society to restore their original purpose. After that, he could also sneak them off Gallifrey to separate colonies so the Daleks would have no way of tracing them. End result? The Doctor is free to travel again (because he's not in charge of a massive civilization) and we have dozens of fringe Time Lord societies out there ripe for a revisit in the future... Honestly regardless of Missy, Capaldi should have been the end of DW for a long while. Ideally the Capaldi era should have gone in the following way. Capaldi does 6 seasons (given he was the current Doctor for 4 years that's not much of a stretch, even more so when you consider that he was pushed.) Daleks are a threat in the background as we see them search for the Time Lords and recover their forces after Trenzalore. Most stories are about the Doctor exploring the wider universe, with again the search for Gallifrey in the background. NO Missy, or if they must have her, don't make her the Master. Do that idea that I think would have been good of her being the Time Lord Clara from Name of the Doctor that told him what TARDIS to steal, who had regenerated into a new form and been driven mad by the horrors of the Time War and had created her own Matrix on a far away planet, that was downloading the minds of those she deemed innocent into a heaven, and those she deemed evil into a hell (to bring order to the universe, with this Matrix in order to be powered, draining energy from several stars, forcinng the Doctor to stop her.) Clara dumped after one year (sorry Maxil I like her too, but Capaldi needed someone to gel with. Journey Blue perhaps, would also be a good way of showing the Daleks rebuilding. You could also have Clara leave after seeing what her future self Missy had done.) Bring Romana back at some point as a recurring character and have her help him. End Capaldis era where the Daleks have captured Romana and are using her research and their resources to find a way into the other universe Gallifrey is trapped in and destroy it when it's weak. The Doctor and his companion rescue Romana, team up, defeat the Daleks and save Gallifrey (perhaps by using the Daleks own machine they planned to use to get the Time Lords out, to instead send the Daleks and Skaro into the other dead universe Gallifrey was trapped in at the end of the 50th, with the Daleks at this point's empire having been crushed across Capaldi's era, so that's the last of the Daleks gone.) After Gallifrey and the Time Lords are free, then Romana who we have learned was overthrown during the war to make way for the resurrected Rassilon is reinstated to lead the Time Lords to a new golden age, whilst the Doctor decides to go off again. That would be the perfect way to round off the New Who saga, and by that stage at 2019, you'd have had 13 seasons of New Who. Good run for any show, and the franchise could have taken a hiatus, with two strong runs under its belt (hell if they wanted to scratch their itch for a female Doctor, Romana by the end of that run would have been set up for her own show.) Doing that would have been so much a better option than throwing away their own story arcs, never mind classic who's and limping on with 4 seasons in ten years. |
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Post by Monster X on Nov 26, 2023 18:16:45 GMT
'The Star Beast' was originally created by writers Pat Mills, John Wagner and artist Dave Gibbons - three giants of the UK comics scene. The story itself is a well written, humourous, beautifully illustrated comic strip from the early days of Doctor Who Weekly and is fondly remembered by many older fans. The comics medium is definitely a ' worthy' source of inspiration - comic books and graphic novels can often be more intelligent, and have more depth, power and entertainment value than an awful lot of films, novels or television shows . If Davies' adaptation of ' The Star Beast' fails (and it does, spectacularly), then it's not the fault of the original comic strip or its creators. Why did you reply in red? Anyway, I agree, Davies should have left The Star Beast comic strip well alone and I'm certainly not defending the TV version - I bloody hated it. I like your idea of an animated version - we could have then enjoyed a more faithful version, free from Tennant and Tate. However, back in 2019, Big Finish released an audio adaptation of two old DWW comic strips - The Iron Legion and The Star Beast, (featuring Tom on vocal duties and adapted by Alan Barnes) . This is a much more authentic and much more fun version than last night's travesty ( it even features Angela Rippon!). |
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Post by ClockworkOcean on Nov 26, 2023 18:19:59 GMT
I promised myself I wouldn't watch it, but my sister had it on and I was curious enough not to leave the room.
My overall impression is that it was thoroughly mediocre. Was it more watchable than even the least dreadful installments of the Chibnall era? Yeah. Obviously. How couldn't it be? Parts of it (mainly those inspired by the Mills/Wagner/Gibbons source material) were mildly entertaining, but the whole package was undermined by immersion-breaking identity politics, wooden acting from all involved, and moments of breathtakingly poor writing that represent a new low for RTD.
The Meep and the Wrath Warriors weren't too badly executed, and it was lovely to see Pat Mills' and Dave Gibbons' reaction to the props in Unleashed, but if a full-cast adaption of the comic strip is what you're looking for, the Big Finish version with Tom is so vastly superior that it renders this pretty much redundant. It was nice to see someone who is at least watchable as the Doctor again for the first time since 2017, though Tennant's performance felt somewhat uninspired, as if he didn't really want to be there. In fact, there were a surprising number of wooden, seemingly under-rehearsed takes that I would've thought a director as lauded as Talalay would have the sense to reshoot.
As predicted, the identity politics were insufferably overbearing, perhaps even surpassing Chibnall and latter-day Moffat in terms of sheer cringe. The Meep pronouns scene and the "binary, non-binary" nonsense... Pass the bucket. Anyone hoping that the show's newfound focus on the transgender crap might at least mean giving the obligatory post-2013 sneering misandry a rest will have been sorely disappointed.
One of the few things I always gave RTD credit for was resisting the urge to undo Donna's memory wipe in The End of Time. It was one of the rare occasions NuWho managed to present a tragic outcome for one of its main cast without completely undermining it for the sake of cheap, easy fan service. Until now. Not only was the outcome reversed, but it was done via what has to be one of the most contrived, idiotic pieces of "writing" I've ever seen. Fathead can't even keep his own story straight for five minutes. We get three distinct explanations for the decision in quick succession, each more moronic than the last.
First, we're told that the metacrisis energy can be partially passed on during childbirth - why didn't this occur to the Doctor back in Journey's End? Then we're told that Rose was only capable of absorbing part of the Doctor's consciousness due to apparently being "non-binary" - something she never even claimed to be at any point in the episode, it just came out of nowhere for the sake of shoehorning yet more identitarian shite into the narrative. Then it's revealed that Donna was never actually in any danger in Journey's End because she could have simply let the metacrisis energy go, which the Doctor never realised because he was a man, and men are stupid, even though Donna supposedly knew everything he did, and- Why am I even bothering to analyse this? It's such incoherent, contrived, nonsensical drivel, even by NuWho standards. Bidmead's infamous "first draft writer" rant has never felt so apt.
Visually, the episode wasn't particularly impressive. There was scant evidence of the show's increased budget, and I would concur with those who said that NuWho looked better during the Smith era. Where the pernicious influence of Disney could be detected was in just how cheesy and saccharine the last ten minutes were. Yes, NuWho has always suffered from this to some extent, but it all felt distinctly American in a way the series hasn't until now. The sheer length of time everyone spent congratulating each other to schmaltzy orchestral music, the extended sequence of Tennant running around the TARDIS screaming with joy in what can only be described as Jodie-esque over-acting. It all felt very, very Disney. I didn't detect an utterance of "GOOD JOB!", but one wouldn't have been out of place here. Cringey political posturing aside, the last ten minutes felt reminiscent of the TV Movie at its worst without the gravitas of McGann to sweeten the deal.
Ultimately, there was nothing new here, just a pile of reheated assets from the 80s/00s with some tedious identitarian posturing and Disney cheese on top. It wasn't the worst thing in the world and did have some enjoyable moments, but nothing that would make me excited to tune in next week, and certainly nothing remotely good enough to make me forgive or forget what's been done to the show in recent years.
I didn't plan on watching it but I'm kind of glad I did, because it's given me a certain amount of closure by driving home the fact that NuWho just isn't for me anymore. The overriding feeling is ambivalence. I just don't care about the future of this show anymore. It's truly over for me. I can still enjoy the classic show and though they grow fewer by the year, there are still occasional Big Finish releases that I feel capture the spirit of the real Doctor Who. Hell, I don't even mind thinking of NuWho as a non-canon alternate universe spinoff that ends with The Doctor Falls. At least the Smith era is good enough to revisit now and then. As far as anything from 2018 onwards goes, forget it. I'm not even angry anymore, I simply cannot bring myself to care.
Also, what was with the sex noises in the theme tune during the end credits? Was I only one who noticed that?
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Post by rushy on Nov 26, 2023 18:26:26 GMT
a director as lauded as Talalay Am I the only Whovian who's seen Freddy's Dead?  Talalay all but destroyed the credibility of a horror icon. The fact that she's allowed to direct again is a miracle lmfao |
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mistressrani
Certified Mob Rallying Heretic Crank
"Ignore me, I'm a dickhead." Rob Filth, 2021
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Post by mistressrani on Nov 26, 2023 20:38:28 GMT
Well, that was well worth the wait - a great romp. Combined all the best elements of the Tennant, Smith and Capaldi eras. Tennant and Tate were on great form, an all time great Doctor-companion pairing. The TARDIS was glorious, the Meep was well realised and a great theme arrangement. Loved a transgender woman being brought in to it - seeing the gammon meltdown on twitter was hilarious. A solid start: 8/10. Excellent, Rani. I see you've read the mood of the room as well as Davies has...  I'm not here to pander to you |
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mistressrani
Certified Mob Rallying Heretic Crank
"Ignore me, I'm a dickhead." Rob Filth, 2021
Posts: 129
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Post by mistressrani on Nov 26, 2023 20:42:32 GMT
It was all over after "Hell Bent" Nah Death in Heaven was the point of no return. Hence why it shed 2 million after that episode and why since then it's only produced 4 seasons in almost 10 years. It basically is already a dead show walking that would have been axed a year after Death in Heaven if it wasn't. The BBC's darling Living off of quarter of a century and 7 years of success. Okay not all of those periods were big, but when it was big Dalekmania, Pertwee. Tom, Tennant, Smith even the first year of Davison it was one of the biggest shows in the UK. Meaning there is always potential for it to get back to that. Ideologically driven. Made by the elitists at the BBC who have it all sewn up. A 'dead show walking' doesn't get moved back to a prime time Saturday slot with coverage across BBC outlets and massive financial investment from a global entertainment giant. But yeah, sure. |
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Post by iank on Nov 26, 2023 20:50:51 GMT
5.1 million (tee hee) for a massively overhyped special with the massively overhyped Tennant and Tate. Wait for it to fall in the coming weeks. And Ncuti is going to go down (shut up Russell) about as well as Jodie. It's deader than tank tops. So glad I noped out.  |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2023 20:51:34 GMT
a director as lauded as Talalay Am I the only Whovian who's seen Freddy's Dead? Talalay all but destroyed the credibility of a horror icon. The fact that she's allowed to direct again is a miracle lmfao I don't buy the hype either. Yeah she might be better than Joe Schmoe or the uni students Chibnall hired for his episodes, but she's hardly Fellini. I want to see Graeme Harper return more than anyone tbh |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2023 21:01:51 GMT
Nah Death in Heaven was the point of no return. Hence why it shed 2 million after that episode and why since then it's only produced 4 seasons in almost 10 years. It basically is already a dead show walking that would have been axed a year after Death in Heaven if it wasn't. The BBC's darling Living off of quarter of a century and 7 years of success. Okay not all of those periods were big, but when it was big Dalekmania, Pertwee. Tom, Tennant, Smith even the first year of Davison it was one of the biggest shows in the UK. Meaning there is always potential for it to get back to that. Ideologically driven. Made by the elitists at the BBC who have it all sewn up. A 'dead show walking' doesn't get moved back to a prime time Saturday slot with coverage across BBC outlets and massive financial investment from a global entertainment giant. But yeah, sure. 5.08 million. Almost exactly half of the 50th's overnights. The 60th ANNIVERSARY SPECIAL got less overnight viewers than every episode of series 11. Holy f*ck. Pretty sure the "walking" of the "dead show walking" covers all the publicity and slot moving. |
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Post by iank on Nov 26, 2023 21:03:11 GMT
The word of mouth from most people is not going to improve things either. Axe it. For God's sake just let it die.
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Post by iank on Nov 26, 2023 21:25:34 GMT
Sorry, I overstated it. It was 5.08 million lols
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Post by UncleDeadly on Nov 26, 2023 21:56:05 GMT
Excellent, Rani. I see you've read the mood of the room as well as Davies has... I'm not here to pander to you That's painfully obvious, Rani. !f you were pandering to me, you'd have shown some taste years ago... |
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