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Post by burrunjor on Sept 25, 2024 15:18:14 GMT
I completely reject the idea of the show being unsalvageable after RTD. Pretty much everyone were ready to move on from the cheesiness of Ninth-Eleventh. If you read the fan theories and stuff from around 2014, everyone's expectations for the Capaldi era were significantly more darker and more adult than it ended up being. The audience that had watched New Who as children had grown up and were looking for mature entertainment. It was the perfect oppurtunity, similar to how the Harry Potter novels became increasingly darker as they went on to great success, to take advantage of the audience aging. It was Moffat who missed the golden oppurtunity, not Russell. Who cares if Journey's End was trash? It was a f*cking juggernaut culturally. Russell had the audience. He gave the audience to Moffat. Moffat had the chance to improve and mature the show, and he wasted it. Moffat was the worser showrunner. Maybe a better writer, but definitely the worser showrunner. (That all being said, I do think RTD should have salvaged something with the 60th. Tennant brought the views back in, so if they just quietly moved on from the Capaldi/Whittaker debacle and told good stories, maybe it could've clawed back to some kind of dignity) 100 percent agree with all of that and it's so f*cking annoying that our points won't be the accepted narrative as Russell will be there at the end so he'll get 98 percent of the blame with 2 percent assigned to Chibnall when it should be 50/50 Moffat and Chibbers. I remember all the fan theories going around at that time n 2014 too that ended up being better than what we got. I also remember us being told that after the lightness of the Matt Smith era, Capaldi would be a kick up the arse Doctor. In fact at one point people were saying that they hoped Capaldi's first series would be like series 12, IE we've just come from a more straight forward heroic Doctor with a cosey era and regular cast of characters (UNIT, Paternoster Gang) but now we're going to get journey's into space, with an unpredictable Doctor you're not sure you can always trust, stories with a real sense of horror and fear etc. What a f*cking let down it all was, leaving aside the ultimate abomination of Missy, how light weight it was with Moons an egg episodes, stories about the Doctor being Clara's wacky pal at work, the Doctor and Robin Hood bitching and dick measuring, magic trees saving the earth and kids being brought back through Disney magic. Only thing I disagree with you on is that Russell could have salvaged anything from the 60th. Don't get me wrong I'm NOT absolving him of writing those three atrocious stories and casting a scumbag like Neil Patrick Harris whilst smelling his own farts, but even if he'd done a great story then I wouldn't be interested in carrying it on, as the Timeless Children and Missy and the destruction of Gallifrey again are not things I want to be canon to either old or new who. In a way I'm grateful to Russell for making it bad as I wouldn't have wanted a great era to come after them LOL. Still he could have written a better story. Check out the 14th Doctor vs the Daleks comic strip. It's fantastic and absolutely should have been a film length 60th anniversary story, followed by a similar celebration of the Cybermen and then one for the Master. |
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Post by burrunjor on Sept 25, 2024 15:38:30 GMT
One other thing I disagree with Rushy on is that RTD got the viewers back with Tennant's return. Sadly that didn't happen.
Obviously viewers for Tennant's first episode in the 60th were bigger than Jodie's had been for a while, but even then they weren't up to his standard.
He got about 5 million for overnights, with consolidated overnight taking him to about 7 mil? (I'm not counting how many watched it over a month as that is ridiculous.)
7 mil is absolutely fine, great even for the middle of a series, but for a huge event episode like this it's very poor. Normally event episodes of the Tennant era from Christmas specials to finales to anniversary stories like the 50th would pull in viewers of at least 9 million or sometimes more.
Therefore in order to match them, the first 60th should have got viewers in say the 7 million for overnights and then consolidated should have beefed it up to 9 or 10 million.
As it was clearly a lot of people outside the fandom bubble had my attitude of they don't care what happens now, if it's a good actor, or even if it's their favourite coming back. The story has been damaged too much by Capaldi and Jodie's era, the Doctor twisted too much from what he should be that you actually don't want to see it carry on again, and ultimately each episode saw a drop off to the point where Tennant who used to get like 12 million for his special stories was getting half that with consolidated, and a quarter without them for the 60th anniversary specials.
People really do underestimate the catastrophic damage the Capaldi and Jodie era's did. The fact that pretentious gits on reddit try and reassess the Capaldi era as the thinking man's era and Jodie's era as getting a hard rap, and the fact that even the anti SJW, fandom menace fans write things like "decanonise everything after 12" is deeply depressing and shows you that fans still haven't learned a thing.
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Post by rushy on Sept 25, 2024 15:44:24 GMT
It's unreasonable to expect that Tennant would get ALL his old viewers back instantly. That was the show at the peak of its popularity.
When I said he brought the viewers back, I meant that he got a healthy amount of people watching again. A lot of those fans gave the 60th a chance out of nostalgia and curiosity. It was a good start to rebuild.
Also worth noting that 7 mil in the 2020s is much better than 7 mil in the 2000s.
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Post by burrunjor on Sept 25, 2024 16:07:59 GMT
It's unreasonable to expect that Tennant would get ALL his old viewers back instantly. That was the show at the peak of its popularity. When I said he brought the viewers back, I meant that he got a healthy amount of people watching again. A lot of those fans gave the 60th a chance out of nostalgia and curiosity. It was a good start to rebuild. Also worth noting that 7 mil in the 2020s is much better than 7 mil in the 2000s. Well that's fair but the 7 mil is about the same as whilst fewer people watch tv, the point is that things like I Player, overnights help to overcome that. |
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Post by iank on Sept 25, 2024 16:25:20 GMT
I find the notion that everything was still okay after RTD because Moffat had the stones to cast an older actor (which RTD has said he'll NEVER do) being somehow an indication that RTD did alright bafflingly bizarre and practically cognitive dissonance.
RTD damaged the show and the character beyond all repair. Moffat pulled it back with his castings but the rot introduced by RTD was still there because that's what the audience RTD's crapola pulled in wanted.
That being said, New Who as a whole is shit. But the idea "it started off alright till Moffat ruined it" insane. Not only was the rot there from day one, many of us were just blind to it at the time (and apparently still are) but in the unlikely event I reach for a New Poo story (haven't for a year or so at this point I think) it'll be either from the Moffat era or a Moffat ep. I'm the opposite of Maxil I'm afraid, I can't stand almost any of the Davies era now.
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Post by burrunjor on Sept 25, 2024 19:23:18 GMT
I find the notion that everything was still okay after RTD because Moffat had the stones to cast an older actor (which RTD has said he'll NEVER do) being somehow an indication that RTD did alright bafflingly bizarre and practically cognitive dissonance. RTD damaged the show and the character beyond all repair. Moffat pulled it back with his castings but the rot introduced by RTD was still there because that's what the audience RTD's crapola pulled in wanted. That being said, New Who as a whole is shit. But the idea "it started off alright till Moffat ruined it" insane. Not only was the rot there from day one, many of us were just blind to it at the time (and apparently still are) but in the unlikely event I reach for a New Poo story (haven't for a year or so at this point I think) it'll be either from the Moffat era or a Moffat ep. I'm the opposite of Maxil I'm afraid, I can't stand almost any of the Davies era now. It's not that the RTD era didn't have flaws. It's that ultimately the show had been able to move on from them. You absolutely cannot say that he damaged the show beyond repair. Yes RTD did change the Doctor to be a more romantic, sexy, brooding, tortured character who was the last of his kind, which was a deviation. For the record even with my new appreciation of the RTD era, I'd still rather have had Dylan Moran as the 9th Doctor and Tim Curry as the 10th playing them as mad professors fighting monsters. Still ultimately all of those things were gone by the end of 2013. The Doctor was no longer the last of his kind, an older, eccentric character actor had been cast to play him, we were told there would be no more romances etc and the fans all happily accepted that. As Rushy pointed out, even the young fans were happy to see the back of those things by that point. Meanwhile the GP also accepted an older, more eccentric professorial Doctor. It's a total myth that Capaldi lost the viewers right away. It wasn't "old guy showed up, young shallow audience left." The GP supported him for his first year, it was only after a season of moon eggs, gender bending panto Masters, magic trees and Danny and Clara's romance that the audience rightfully f*cked off. Meanwhile let's contrast that with the end of the Capaldi era. Do you think Moff's successor could have cast a white, straight man and it would have been accepted the way that Capaldi was in 2013? Of course not, because over the course of those 4 years, Moff went about replacing regular fans with pronoun obsessed psycho activists via Missy, the General, anti men remarks, stories like Death in Heaven, sexual braggard Hartnell, promoting the likes of Whovian Feminism as the new elite of fandom etc, whilst the GP didn't care anymore. Also even if you say that RTD brought the pronoun obsessed lunatic to the franchise, well even then Moff didn't need to be so spineless in pandering to them. He's told other sections of fandom to f*ck off like us, why not do the same to them? Still I remember watching it unfold in real time. In 2013 fans used to laugh at the idea of a female Doctor, even our very own Rani thought it was a bad idea. Then as soon as Pissy Missy showed up, support for it became unanimous because Moffat has decreed. Moffat's role in the destruction should never be overlooked. |
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Post by Ludders II on Sept 26, 2024 15:54:04 GMT
Apology accepted. 😉 But nah, end of the day you care about all this far, far more than I do. I'm basically with Ian. It was f*cked from the bin burp onwards. If not from 8 and Grace 😘 and the Arnie Master. 😆 |
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Post by Cherry Pepsi Maxil on Sept 26, 2024 22:05:27 GMT
Stupidly threw on New Earth earlier. God, what a naff episode. Feels like some sort of third rate fantasy story written by a fifteen year old fangirl who likes cats and snogging. The bloody vaseline filter is at its worst here. Everything just glows white to the point where it gives me a headache. I'm so glad they ditched that visual style in the third series.
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Post by burrunjor on Sept 27, 2024 17:44:52 GMT
Stupidly threw on New Earth earlier. God, what a naff episode. Feels like some sort of third rate fantasy story written by a fifteen year old fangirl who likes cats and snogging. The bloody vaseline filter is at its worst here. Everything just glows white to the point where it gives me a headache. I'm so glad they ditched that visual style in the third series. New Earth is a candidate for RTD's worst script of his original era. I will say that whilst Moff for reasons we've been over damaged the show in a way RTD never did, I do think RTD had worse lows in his era than Moff did in 11's time. The thing I hate most about this story is who the f*ck is aimed at? Lazarus Experiment is a big deep, philosophical story about death and making the most of your life. That line about how some people do more in 20 years than others in 70 is beautiful and completely true. (Case in point Henry Kissinger lived more than John Lennon, Bruce Lee and Amy Winehouse combined, but who left the worst legacy out of those 4?) Meanwhile Smith and Jones in contrast is stupid, brainless fun. Both work brilliantly because both know what they want to do. New Earth meanwhile? It seemingly tries to be both and fails miserably. Lady Cassandra its villain, is a woman made out of arse flab, who comments on how big Billie Pipers tits are as she feels them up and body swaps with Tennant leading to one of his worst, campiest performances, it also has cat ladies with two milimeter blunt claws wielding them as weapons all of which take it to Love and Monsters levels of being one of the stupidest stories, yet it also has a big, drawn out, miserable death scene at the end and our arse flab woman talking about how lonely old age is when the world moves on, that kills any potential for it to be a comedy episode, leaving it in a fairly unique position of being stupid and miserable. I'm not surprised that series 2 saw a drop off in viewers when this was the first episode. |
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Post by iank on Sept 28, 2024 6:12:40 GMT
Lazarus Experiment is shallow, lazy and stupid.  |
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Post by Cherry Pepsi Maxil on Sept 28, 2024 21:22:23 GMT
shallow, lazy and stupid. We're not talking about the Moffat era anymore, Ian. |
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Post by rushy on Sept 28, 2024 21:28:33 GMT
We're not talking about Destiny of the Daleks anymore, Pepsi
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Post by Cherry Pepsi Maxil on Sept 28, 2024 21:34:35 GMT
We're not talking about Destiny of the Daleks anymore, Pepsi We all know "fun" "underrated" and "delightful" are the three words to describe Destiny. |
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Post by rushy on Sept 28, 2024 21:46:26 GMT
We're not talking about Destiny of the Daleks anymore, Pepsi We all know "fun" "underrated" and "delightful" are the three words to describe Destiny.  |
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Post by iank on Sept 29, 2024 6:48:12 GMT
No, we're talking about RTD - three words that describe the man, and everything he's every vomited onto screen.
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