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Post by burrunjor on Nov 22, 2023 11:51:34 GMT
Working Class Hero was indeed a great song, even I can admire some of Lennon's solo songwriting! Looking at the other reviews of RTD's return I get a sense of nervousness, as if they fear his previous admirers aren't as convinced. If Nu Who does finally collapse (a bit like Top Gear after Clarkson + co left, which I suspect may have happened even without Flintoff's crash) I hope he is still captain of the ship - it will stop any revisionism from its die-hard fans. It's one of my two favourite songs along with Love is a Losing Game. I think Love is a Losing Game is a better song overall, in terms of how it's made. The vocal performance, harmonies and lyrics all just sync together magically, where as Working Class Hero is more basic, as it's just him strumming a guitar. However lyrically it arguably has no equal. It's practically a whole manifesto condensed into a song LOL. It truly is a song that can change your outlook. PS learn how to smile as you kill in this day and age is sadly even more relevant. Meanwhile getting back to RTD LOL. honestly I think this comeback is the biggest mistake he ever made. As Clockwork said he actually could have walked away, and been remembered as the man who brought it back, and who even classic fans like us didn't mind as much as he didn't absolutely trash the legacy the way Moffat and Chibnall did. Despite what people think of his first era, DW was still salvagable after that, hence Matt. I still say that Peter was the crossroads. Back in 2013 with him cast, it could have gone down more of a classic era route thanks to Matt getting people used to a more alien Doctor, the huge nostalgic love for the classic era thanks to the 50th and An Adventure in Space and Time. (Also an actor of Capaldi's status as well could help people get on board with an older Doctor.) Sadly that's what Capaldi wanted, to be a more stern, alien Doctor, who would journey into the unknown like Hartnell and have spookier stories. Into the Dalek I still say offers up a what could have been, with a more distant sci fi setting, a darker tone, and a potential companion like Journey Blue instead of Clara, who is stronger, not from 21st century earth, has more of a sci fi background, travels for reasons beyond just being a fangirl in awe of him etc. That's the template for the Capaldi era that should have been. Or it could have pandered to the audiences that wanted a female Doctor at that point and the millennials who wanted more relationships and domestics in the show. It obviously did the latter with Danny Pink and Missy and that was that. That set it on a course for self destruction, but then Chibnall managed to somehow exceed even that! However now ironically RTD could end up taking more of the blame for the final death of DW than either Moffat or Chibnall, which all things considered is extremely unfair to be honest. What he's done with Davros still isn't as bad as either Missy or the Timeless Children either in concept, or in terms of what it does to the character and franchise. Also any stupid thing he does now, doesn't really matter after Missy and the Timeless Children and Jodie let's be honest. This isn't 2013 where I am genuinely worried about the shows future. Here it's more just morbid curiosity and laughing at "they actually did that." RTD's like someone at the scene of the murder robbing the corpse and then getting the blame for the murder in this case. Still just as the robbers own greed lures them to the body, then RTD's own ego lured him back to what was obviously a dead franchise that needed to have a good long rest before a new team came in. |
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Post by UncleDeadly on Nov 22, 2023 13:48:43 GMT
However now ironically RTD could end up taking more of the blame for the final death of DW than either Moffat or Chibnall, which all things considered is extremely unfair to be honest. It's probably no more or less than his just desserts at this point. Nuwho may have got progressively worse over time (and it has) but all of these developments have been squarely based on elements put in place by Davies himself as far back as series 1. He was the one who began chipping away at the fundaments of Doctor Who's integrity and none of the subsequent iterations would have existed in the same form without him. Whether this dumbing down lies solely at the feet of Davies or edicts passed down from the BBC is open to debate. However, he was the one sitting in the producer's chair (or whatever passes for it these days) at the time and he must be held accountable. He's had it too good for too long; he may not have killed Doctor Who, but he certainly never brought it back... |
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Clayton Dickman
Certified Mob Rallying Heretic Crank
Ageing homo. (Still bald)
Posts: 110
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Post by Clayton Dickman on Nov 22, 2023 14:03:33 GMT
"Never go back" - a warning drowned out by by Davies' monstrous ego.
His time to face the music will come once the Anniversary celebrations are out of the way and the series improper returns.
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Post by burrunjor on Nov 22, 2023 14:06:32 GMT
However now ironically RTD could end up taking more of the blame for the final death of DW than either Moffat or Chibnall, which all things considered is extremely unfair to be honest. It's probably no more or less than his just desserts at this point. Nuwho may have got progressively worse over time (and it has) but all of these developments have been squarely based on elements put in place by Davies himself as far back as series 1. He was the one who began chipping away at the fundaments of Doctor Who's integrity and none of the subsequent iterations would have existed in the same form without him. Whether this dumbing down lies solely at the feet of Davies or edicts passed down from the BBC is open to debate. However, he was the one sitting in the producer's chair (or whatever passes for it these days) at the time and he must be held accountable. He's had it too good for too long; he may not have killed Doctor Who, but he certainly never brought it back... Well I would agree except again, like I said Matt Smith showed that it was salvageable after Davies. Again the real point of no return is Capaldi's first year. Whilst Matt did still suffer from a lot of new whoisms like slapping his companion on the bum "who DA man." Giving big pompous ego porn speechs about how he is a god, and all that stuff, one could argue those were teething pains at getting us out of the Davies mould and back into a classic era one and, I'd say it worked. Matt did help bridge the gap, hence why he was the most popular (and hilariously enough he WAS. His viewers reached greater heights than Davie boy and he was the most popular abroad too.) By the end of the 50th year as I said we had reached a point where the public were willing to accept an old school, eccentric type of actor as Doctor, we had a respected older actor wanting to make it more of an updated Hartnell or Pertwee type, and we had a lot of genuine nostalgic love for Classic Who via the Troughton classics and An Adventure in Space and Time. The stage was set for a golden age. I mean don't get me wrong it still would have been hampered by the 45 min format, but at least we could have had an alien Doctor, no longer the last of his kind, travelling the universe, fighting monsters on alien planets, with more varied companions after Clara left, and perhaps a more old school Master. Moffat however got cold feet because of the sexist accusations from 2010=2013 and went completely the other way in trying to win round the young feminist audience. To be clear I don't hate all the fans that called him sexist anymore. I mean I do think some of their accusations were ridiculous, others spot on. Still the blame should lie with Moffat and the other higher ups who pandered solely to one section of the audience, for the most shallow reasons "they're young and they're female (even though most of them aren't) and we have to win that round or else panel show comedians and media whores might say we're dorks!" No one is saying you couldn't have addressed some of the feminists complaints. For instance, yeah Moff maybe don't have the male companion look up the female companions skirt, maybe don't write the Doctor as a blokey 90s sitcom guy, maybe don't have him force himself on a lesbian and then mime an erection at her hot ass, maybe don't have him slap his companion on the bum, and maybe have a greater variety of female companions? Again I wouldn't have said no to Journey Blue, a black lesbian companion because she was a good character, had a good connection with the Daleks and could have had an interesting Leela/Tom Baker type dynamic with him. But no apparently that was beyond him, so he and the others went ahead and not only pandered to one section of the audience at the expense of all others, but set the precedent to rewrite the shows past, not just its present with Missy and the Hybrid which truly put it on the path of no return. |
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Post by rushy on Nov 22, 2023 14:48:51 GMT
The Journey Blue thing cracks me up, because it's like... the Brig???
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Post by mott1 on Nov 22, 2023 19:14:02 GMT
The Journey Blue thing cracks me up, because it's like... the Brig??? I rather liked Journey Blue because the actress was very committed and Capaldi seemed to be lifted by the intensity of the exchanges. She had a Leela-like quality and a strong centre to the character, as well as being a good foil for the Doctor. Better than Clara, anyway! |
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Post by rushy on Nov 22, 2023 19:27:02 GMT
Better that Clara, anyway! Literally any companion is better than Clara. |
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Post by iank on Nov 22, 2023 20:31:19 GMT
However now ironically RTD could end up taking more of the blame for the final death of DW than either Moffat or Chibnall, which all things considered is extremely unfair to be honest. It's probably no more or less than his just desserts at this point. Nuwho may have got progressively worse over time (and it has) but all of these developments have been squarely based on elements put in place by Davies himself as far back as series 1. He was the one who began chipping away at the fundaments of Doctor Who's integrity and none of the subsequent iterations would have existed in the same form without him. Whether this dumbing down lies solely at the feet of Davies or edicts passed down from the BBC is open to debate. However, he was the one sitting in the producer's chair (or whatever passes for it these days) at the time and he must be held accountable. He's had it too good for too long; he may not have killed Doctor Who, but he certainly never brought it back... Bingo. Everything fundamentally wrong with New Who started with him. Destroying the format, rendering the Doctor an utterly unrecognisable anti-intellectual guy who was no longer an aristocrat (even a self-imposed exiled aristocrat), the Rose BS to pander to teen girls... This shitshow was fundamentally not the same program or character from day one. |
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Post by Bernard Marx on Nov 22, 2023 20:39:12 GMT
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Post by Bernard Marx on Nov 22, 2023 21:40:44 GMT
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Post by mott1 on Nov 22, 2023 22:49:46 GMT
Exactly, Bernard! Every single response I saw underneath is negative, including well-written opinions by those with a disability. There comes a point when unnecessary changes alienate every fan. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2023 23:24:02 GMT
The fact that even 20% voted for is worrying. Like...how could you?? I'm gonna go ahead and say that you're not a real Doctor Who fan if you're in favour of this retcon, or as a matter of fact any such retcon that has taken place since 2018. Wankers.
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Post by iank on Nov 22, 2023 23:49:31 GMT
The fact that even 20% voted for is worrying. Like...how could you?? I'm gonna go ahead and say that you're not a real Doctor Who fan if you're in favour of this retcon, or as a matter of fact any such retcon that has taken place since 2018. Wankers. Most of them aren't. |
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Post by ClockworkOcean on Nov 23, 2023 12:40:57 GMT
Here's a question that just occurred to me: do John Friedlander and/or the estate of Peter Day earn any revenue when Davros' original design is used? The character was their creation visually as much as he was Terry Nation's conceptually. I'm no copyright expert, but could there be some cynical financial motivation behind this decision?
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Post by burrunjor on Nov 23, 2023 12:46:19 GMT
Here's a question that just occurred to me: do John Friedlander and/or the estate of Peter Day earn any revenue when Davros' original design is used? The character was their creation visually as much as he was Terry Nation's conceptually. I'm no copyright expert, but could there be some cynical financial motivation behind this decision? No there won't be. John Friedlander worked for the BBC, so everything he created for is owned by them. It's the same reason Terrance Dicks couldn't object to anything to do with the Master despite hating Missy with a vengeance and not wanting her to go ahead. Similarly it's also why Raymond Cusick didn't get a penny from the Daleks. People act like Terry Nation was a bastard who deliberately ripped him off like Bob Kane and Bill Finger but it wasn't. Nation certainly could have mentioned Raymond Cusick's contributions more in interviews, but the real reason Cusick didn't get any royalties was because he was a salaried BBC employee who signed a contract that everything he created was theirs, where as Nation was a free lance writer, so anything he created was his. I'm not sure but I think Bob Holmes similarly owned the rights to the Sontarans and Moffat owned the rights to the Weeping Angels as a result of this too as they were both free lance writers when they created them. That said I do wonder how RTD has the rights to the Ood and Judoon? He must have got a special contract made. |
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