Is classic who the pinnacle of old British TV?

[Deleted]

Only Fools, Fawlty Towers, Red Dwarf, Blackadder, Blake's 7, Mr.Bean, The Avengers, Monty Python and Dad's Army are just some of the most popular and beloved British television shows of the past, but is Doctor Who the best of the lot? With decades of exceptional storylines and an ability to reinvent itself to keep fresh, it's difficult to find a stronger series than the classic series especially with the standard of writing during the 1970s. What do you think?

[rushy]

I'm much more fond of Blake's 7. I like that the characters in the show can't just take off and forget about their adventures. They're stuck in this world and have to make the best of it in their own way.

Plus, the Blake/Avon dynamic is some of the best character-driven storytelling I've ever seen

[burrunjor]

Personally I don't think there is such a thing as ultimately each genre is different. Still as far as sci fi and fantasy and adventure goes absolutely. In fact I'd go as far as to say Classic DW is the pinnacle of the sci fi genre itself. No work of literary or televisual sci fi comes close in terms of the sheer number of sub genres and sci fi tropes it is able to cover.

[Deleted]

Nov 11, 2023 16:00:25 GMT burrunjor said:

Personally I don't think there is such a thing as ultimately each genre is different. Still as far as sci fi and fantasy and adventure goes absolutely. In fact I'd go as far as to say Classic DW is the pinnacle of the sci fi genre itself. No work of literary or televisual sci fi comes close in terms of the sheer number of sub genres and sci fi tropes it is able to cover.

There is objectively much better sci-fi out there, but in terms of longevity and as a symbolic workhorse of the televisual medium, I'd say it's definitely a contender

[rushy]

The Prisoner should definitely be in the conversation. It's timeless.

[cyberhat]

I preferred when Doctor Who was making classic after classic and dismissed as a worthless filler kids show. Rather than being a worthless filler kids show described as a classic like nowadays. It was in a way better state when most people were snobbish and dismissive of it.

Doctor Who is a great television show, but I don't know if I would put it as the greatest. There's a few sitcoms and plays that would now be dismissed by idiots as "too theatrical" that I'd put above it. But I'd say one strength it has over almost any other great show, is the sheer amount of conversation points you get from it. There's never a limit. I can't say the same even about Steptoe and Son or Abigails Party.

Classic Who is completely tied up to the eco-system that gave us so many other great shows till John Birt, Producer Choice, then the woke shitlibs that now run the arts ruined it for everyone.

[burrunjor]

Nov 19, 2023 10:46:59 GMT cyberhat said:

I preferred when Doctor Who was making classic after classic and dismissed as a worthless filler kids show. Rather than being a worthless filler kids show described as a classic like nowadays. It was in a way better state when most people were snobbish and dismissive of it.

Doctor Who is a great television show, but I don't know if I would put it as the greatest. There's a few sitcoms and plays that would now be dismissed by idiots as "too theatrical" that I'd put above it. But I'd say one strength it has over almost any other great show, is the sheer amount of conversation points you get from it. There's never a limit. I can't say the same even about Steptoe and Son or Abigails Party.

Classic Who is completely tied up to the eco-system that gave us so many other great shows till John Birt, Producer Choice, then the woke shitlibs that now run the arts ruined it for everyone.

I don't think there is such a thing as the greatest to be honest. Again different shows will have different expectations. Fawlty Towers is one of the greatest sitcoms ever made, but it lacks say the longevity of DW, but again that's not a problem for Fawlty Towers as it doesn't need to last a long time to be funny. 

Again I think when put up against other sci fi and fantasy shows Classic Who for me is the best for the following reasons. 

1/ It has the broadest formula as he can go anywhere allowing him to slip into any situation, change his appearance and outer personality allowing the character to be reinvented in a number of ways from chess master to action hero to fallable nice guy, and the somewhat surrealist aspects to the character, can even allow it to dip its toe into fantasy at times. At the same time however there is a character to the Doctor. Unlike New Who, where anything goes to the point where it just seems stupid and disconnected, in the original it actually could feel like the one story despite its differences. No other show I feel has the same strong sense of identity and flexibility which is a very hard balance to get right. 

2/ Its sci fi stories were always so much better thought out than say Star Trek, or other shows for 2 reasons. It's more mysterious, alien protagonist meant that it didn't get bogged down in soap opera or real world issues. (Or rather if it did want to tackle real world issues like racism, then it had to completely dress them up in sci fi and fantasy terms which is always more effective because the Doctor was an outsider.) Also its serialised format meant that it was actually able to explore its sci fi concept in greater detail and therefore has more memorable world building, guest characters and epic stories at its best than other series. 

3/ It also always made an effort to make its aliens look well alien. I think its only rival in this respect are Buffy/Angel, which similarly both always tried to make their monsters and demons look horrific and scary. Obviously in both cases there were misfires, but ultimately both shows gave us some of the most memorable and terrifying creatures that in both cases became part of the contemporary generation's collective nightmares. Almost any person my age knows the Gentlemen from Buffy for instance, and similarly almost every 60s baby will know the Yeti's in the London underground. Again I'd take that, even with the failure's over shows like Star Trek TOS, where the aliens were usually just humans with weird eyebrows, or Charmed and Supernatural where the demons are just people with black eyes most of the time. 

4/ It covers the widest range of subgenres, tropes and concepts within the sci fi and fantasy genres. Alien invasions, time travel stories, sci fantasy, ancient astronauts, vampire stories, gothic horror, spy espionage, space operas, gothic horror, historical epics, ghost stories etc. You'll be lucky to find a show that has even covered that many subgenres never mind produced some of the all time greatest and most classic stories in those different subgenres too. Day of the Daleks for instance is one of the best time paradox stories ever made, setting a precedent for Days of Future Past and the Terminator, whilst Curse of Fenric is easily one of the most frightening, most intelligent, and original takes on vampire fiction you'll ever see, up there with the best vampire films and tv shows. 

5/ It has one of the most original and unique leading characters in all of fiction. Never mind the Doctor being able to regenerate, even his core character regardless of what face he has is fascinating. He's a mess of contradictions that somehow all fit together. On the one hand he is a wise old man, but also a childish, selfish git. On the one he is a kind, positive role model, on the other a ruthless anti hero. He's someone we know so well, we recognise him through vastly different portrayals, yet he is still an enigma after 26 years. Then there is also the fact that he has to be played by a more unconventional leading actor too. I mean seriously how many tv shows, never mind action adventure tv shows do you think Sylvester McCoy or even Hartnell and Troughton at that stage in their careers could have led. By that stage in his career Troughton was typecast as the victim! Always being killed, tortured or having something bad happen to him on screen LOL, yet in DW he still basically got to play a superhero, who killed scores of monsters, saved the world and was a role model to little boys! 

For these reasons honestly I don't think anything will ever top classic who. 

[rushy]

I'd like to put up a stronger argument for Blake's 7

1) Like Doctor Who, it has a very broad formula. Even though it likes to stay in the freedom fighting/Robin Hood lane, there's certainly enough variety there for as many different kinds of sci-fi stories as Star Trek. Episodes like "Sarcophagus" and "Gambit" absolutely do not require the show's backstory in order to be great. What's more, the fact that it has such a complex and mature setup means that it hardly ever dwells into inanity (i.e. gets too comfortable).

2) Despite the 45-minute running time not competing with the serialization of Dr Who, I'd say Blake's 7 is one of the best shows in terms of time management. You still get a rich smorgasbord of character development and worldbuilding, and none of it feels packed. It's just tailored extremely well. New Who even at its best struggled to fill the time properly, whilst Blake's 7 casually strolled through its 45 minutes and got everything done.

3) Blake's 7 generally sticks with human antagonists, but I don't mind that. I think it's actually realistic that the galaxy is fairly empty, and alien threats are a rarity (and all the more creepy for it). It's a special occasion, when our characters faced with the unknown.

4) The crew of Blake's 7 is beautifully designed to be an eclectic, selfish mess of completely different kinds of people. Some smarter, some tougher, some prettier and some downright vicious. Avon, for one, absolutely matches the character depth the Doctor has. I don't care how many more seasons the Doctor was onscreen, Avon's development from a reserved computer expert to an unhinged gunslinger + his growing obsession with Blake + his dynamic with Servalan mark HIM as the best TV character. And Darrow is never anything less than magnetic in the role. You can't take your eyes off him.

[burrunjor]

Nov 19, 2023 15:01:45 GMT rushy said:

I'd like to put up a stronger argument for Blake's 7

1) Like Doctor Who, it has a very broad formula. Even though it likes to stay in the freedom fighting/Robin Hood lane, there's certainly enough variety there for as many different kinds of sci-fi stories as Star Trek. Episodes like "Sarcophagus" and "Gambit" absolutely do not require the show's backstory in order to be great. What's more, the fact that it has such a complex and mature setup means that it hardly ever dwells into inanity (i.e. gets too comfortable).

2) Despite the 45-minute running time not competing with the serialization of Dr Who, I'd say Blake's 7 is one of the best shows in terms of time management. You still get a rich smorgasbord of character development and worldbuilding, and none of it feels packed. It's just tailored extremely well. New Who even at its best struggled to fill the time properly, whilst Blake's 7 casually strolled through its 45 minutes and got everything done.

3) Blake's 7 generally sticks with human antagonists, but I don't mind that. I think it's actually realistic that the galaxy is fairly empty, and alien threats are a rarity (and all the more creepy for it). It's a special occasion, when our characters faced with the unknown.

4) The crew of Blake's 7 is beautifully designed to be an eclectic, selfish mess of completely different kinds of people. Some smarter, some tougher, some prettier and some downright vicious. Avon, for one, absolutely matches the character depth the Doctor has. I don't care how many more seasons the Doctor was onscreen, Avon's development from a reserved computer expert to an unhinged gunslinger + his growing obsession with Blake + his dynamic with Servalan mark HIM as the best TV character. And Darrow is never anything less than magnetic in the role. You can't take your eyes off him.

Well I do love Blake's 7, and I think in some ways it's the best in that it has the most perfect legacy. 4 great seasons, no shitty remakes (at least not in mainstream media anyway.) Unlike most other genre shows it quit while it was ahead, there's enough of it to last, and it's never been soiled. 

However ultimately I do think its formula is far more limited than DW. I don't think for instance vampires (in the traditional sense, not counting mutos) time travel, witches, Egyptian gods, aliens as over the top as say the Daleks, comic book supervillains like the Master, invasion earth stories set on modern day, time paradox, light hearted breezy Williams era style romps, gothic horror stories etc would really have a place in Blake's 7. 

Sarcophagus is a bit of an outlier, but that's not the same thing. That's what's known as an out of genre experience. Most shows will have one or two episodes like that, like Xena having its modern day episodes, Buffy with its musical, one really out of kilter episode that can either be fantastic (as was the case with Sarcophagus), or the worst they've ever done LOL. DW really struggles to have those kinds of episodes to be honest because it's so vast and often when it does they can end up shaping a new era. I mean is Fenric that because it has vampires and a demon as the antagonists? Well no, because by that stage the show is a supernatural series as much as it is a sci fi series. Was the Invasion an out of genre experience for being a spy and espionage thriller? At the time yes, but it became the template for almost 7 years worth of stories after. Hell even the Daleks was arguably an out of genre experience at the very beginning due to being a story about bug eyed monsters. Alternatively Black Orchid could be seen as the out of genre experience in the 5th Doctors era for being a historical, despite that being a dominant style in the Hartnell era. 

Meanwhile whilst Avon is certainly an amazing character in every way, in some respects he is a bit more typical than the Doctor. He most certainly is more complex, as the Doctor works best as a mysterious distant character. Still there are lots of Avon type characters, of the ruthless anti hero. Granted this is more a case of lots of people copied Blake's 7 like Farscape and Andromeda LOL, but even then he does fall into the anti hero type more neatly. Also I'd argue that Paul Darrow at least at that point is more the type of actor you'd expect to see play a leading man. I mean he would have made a phenomenal Doctor at that point, but still Darrow had the looks and voice to have say been the lead in a gritty crime show like the Sweeney or a spy and espionage type show, unlike say Tom who was just so weird he'd always have played villains our hammy characters, or again McCoy who in a gritty crime drama would probably play a stoolie, or some poor scaredy guy that was mentally disturbed, or a creepy serial killer (all roles he has played btw in other dramas and comedies LOL.) 

[rushy]

Nov 19, 2023 15:37:59 GMT burrunjor said:

However ultimately I do think its formula is far more limited than DW. I don't think for instance vampires (in the traditional sense, not counting mutos) time travel, witches, Egyptian gods, aliens as over the top as say the Daleks, comic book supervillains like the Master, invasion earth stories set on modern day, time paradox, light hearted breezy Williams era style romps, gothic horror stories etc would really have a place in Blake's 7.

Oh, you'd be surprised.

The expanded universe has actually touched on time travel, Dalek ripoffs, Earth stories (specifically London, but also Russia). I'd also argue the show itself pulled off Williams-type adventures ("Gambit", "The Harvest of Kairos", "City at the Edge of the World", "Stardrive", "Headhunter", "Gold"). But even if it is more limited, it mines its own unique format quite extensively and with 'consummate skill' as Slave might put it. With Doctor Who, the only stories I can think of with such heavy realpolitik overtones are "Frontier in Space" and "The Sun Makers". That's not a flaw of DW because it does a lot of other things as you said, but B7 does what it does better than no one else.

Nov 19, 2023 15:37:59 GMT burrunjor said:

Still there are lots of Avon type characters, of the ruthless anti hero.

He's so much more than just that, though. He's not just a selfish bloke who says funny lines, there's a real humanity in him that only characters like Blake and Anna can bring out, and ultimately the conflict between his head and heart drive him insane.

Nov 19, 2023 15:37:59 GMT burrunjor said:

Also I'd argue that Paul Darrow at least at that point is more the type of actor you'd expect to see play a leading man.

If you look at his other roles at the time, he was far too camp and theatrical. Blake's 7 is when he really figured himself out as an actor. And it was the only time he led a show. Even then, only because Gareth Thomas left. Gareth, by the way, got other leading parts. I love Paul, but he was absolutely an eccentric.

[burrunjor]

Nov 19, 2023 16:05:26 GMT rushy said:

Nov 19, 2023 15:37:59 GMT burrunjor said:

However ultimately I do think its formula is far more limited than DW. I don't think for instance vampires (in the traditional sense, not counting mutos) time travel, witches, Egyptian gods, aliens as over the top as say the Daleks, comic book supervillains like the Master, invasion earth stories set on modern day, time paradox, light hearted breezy Williams era style romps, gothic horror stories etc would really have a place in Blake's 7.

Oh, you'd be surprised.

The expanded universe has actually touched on time travel, Dalek ripoffs, Earth stories (specifically London, but also Russia). I'd also argue the show itself pulled off Williams-type adventures ("Gambit", "The Harvest of Kairos", "City at the Edge of the World", "Stardrive", "Headhunter", "Gold"). But even if it is more limited, it mines its own unique format quite extensively and with 'consummate skill' as Slave might put it. With Doctor Who, the only stories I can think of with such heavy realpolitik overtones are "Frontier in Space" and "The Sun Makers". That's not a flaw of DW because it does a lot of other things as you said, but B7 does what it does better than no one else.

Nov 19, 2023 15:37:59 GMT burrunjor said:

Still there are lots of Avon type characters, of the ruthless anti hero.

He's so much more than just that, though. He's not just a selfish bloke who says funny lines, there's a real humanity in him that only characters like Blake and Anna can bring out, and ultimately the conflict between his head and heart drive him insane.

Nov 19, 2023 15:37:59 GMT burrunjor said:

Also I'd argue that Paul Darrow at least at that point is more the type of actor you'd expect to see play a leading man.

If you look at his other roles at the time, he was far too camp and theatrical. Blake's 7 is when he really figured himself out as an actor. And it was the only time he led a show. Even then, only because Gareth Thomas left. Gareth, by the way, got other leading parts. I love Paul, but he was absolutely an eccentric.

Well to be fair the same is true for a lot of anti heroes. It's almost mandatory to give them a human side. 

I do agree that Paul was very camp, which is why he would have made a fantastic Doctor. He's kind of like Tom Ellis (who played Lucifier) in that he is a rare case of an actor who could be a conventional lead, but is also so insane in some of his acting choices LOL that he can play a quirky offbeat, eccentric genius like DW, Sherlock Holmes etc. 

I remember back in the day a lot of Paul's fangirls suggested he play James Bond! There's no way he would have been able too as he was too unknown, but still the fact that they even pushed that shows you that I think he had more leading man potential. Again I could never imagine even Tom Bakers fangirls saying he could be Bond LOL. Or McCoy or Hartnell. Similarly other quirky character actors who would have made good Doctors, like say Tim Curry, Ron Moody or Jason Watkins. Those guys are all best known for villains, outrageous comedy roles, or bit parts, IE maybe a tragic character, or a creepy character. That's the type you go for with the Doctor. 

Paul however again falls into leading man with a bit of an edge to him I'd say. 

[Monster X]

Nov 19, 2023 10:46:59 GMT cyberhat said:

I preferred when Doctor Who was making classic after classic and dismissed as a worthless filler kids show. Rather than being a worthless filler kids show described as a classic like nowadays. It was in a way better state when most people were snobbish and dismissive of it.

Doctor Who is a great television show, but I don't know if I would put it as the greatest. There's a few sitcoms and plays that would now be dismissed by idiots as "too theatrical" that I'd put above it. But I'd say one strength it has over almost any other great show, is the sheer amount of conversation points you get from it. There's never a limit. I can't say the same even about Steptoe and Son or Abigails Party.

Classic Who is completely tied up to the eco-system that gave us so many other great shows till John Birt, Producer Choice, then the woke shitlibs that now run the arts ruined it for everyone.

"I preferred when Doctor Who was making classic after classic and dismissed as a worthless filler kids show. Rather than being a worthless filler kids show described as a classic like nowadays."

Yes - so true and well put.

For me, the absolute pinnacle of TV drama was 'I, Claudius' - though I suspect that many viewers nowadays would find it "too theatrical" and studio-bound, with poor production values.

[iank]

Nov 19, 2023 10:46:59 GMT cyberhat said:

I preferred when Doctor Who was making classic after classic and dismissed as a worthless filler kids show. Rather than being a worthless filler kids show described as a classic like nowadays. It was in a way better state when most people were snobbish and dismissive of it.

Doctor Who is a great television show, but I don't know if I would put it as the greatest. There's a few sitcoms and plays that would now be dismissed by idiots as "too theatrical" that I'd put above it. But I'd say one strength it has over almost any other great show, is the sheer amount of conversation points you get from it. There's never a limit. I can't say the same even about Steptoe and Son or Abigails Party.

Classic Who is completely tied up to the eco-system that gave us so many other great shows till John Birt, Producer Choice, then the woke shitlibs that now run the arts ruined it for everyone.

This.
British TV was the best in the world in the 60s, 70s and 80s. That began to come to an end in the 90s, where it was very much superceded by US TV. 
Now - none of them can make shit. They throw millions at this shit but hire only the most untalented writers they can find who are part of their cult. 

[Deleted]

I think the 90s was the high point of British comedy shows, or at least the early to mid part of the decade anyway. Mr.Bean, Serie 4-6 of Red Dwarf, Hale and Pace, the Chuckle Brothers, Bottom, Thin Blue Line and many others.

[iank]

There was some good UK stuff in the 90s but not as much as there had been and USTV was becoming streets ahead. By the time you reach the 2000s British TV was all but f****d.