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Post by Monster X on Sept 21, 2023 8:40:24 GMT
Don't forget that long before NuWho, Moffat wrote 'The Curse Of Fatal Death'. Although just a comedy spoof for a Charity Telethon, Curse still feels like proper Doctor Who - certainly more than anything since 2005. That's because it stars Rowan Atkinson and Jonathan Pryce, not because Moff wrote it. Maybe - or perhaps Moffat was simply better at writing Doctor Who stories before he had to conform to the 2005 RTD template . I also like Richard E Grant and Joanna Lumley in Curse - their performances last just a few minutes but still manage to capture the essential 'Doctor' quality. |
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Post by Monster X on Sept 21, 2023 8:50:12 GMT
And Capaldi, bless him, is grossly overrated in the part. His attempts at hammy grandiose acting a la Tom and Matt are just cringeworthy. Until Whittaker, he gave the weakest overall performance as the Doctor. The Twelfth Doctor is an inconsistent mess of a character who swings wildly from cold and pragmatic to emotional braggart. Matt BARELY sold Moffat's writing by being genuinely quirky. Capaldi could not, because he isn't. He's a dramatic actor in the vein of Charles Dance and deserved a far darker and more serious take on the role to bring out his strengths.
Agreed, but its hard to be serious when you're playing electric guitar on top of a tank. I suspect that Moffat initially wanted Capaldi to be a darker, solemn Doctor, but then chickened out and tried to make him a lighter, funny 'Rock Dad' character instead, and then it all went rather silly. |
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Post by burrunjor on Sept 21, 2023 9:53:12 GMT
Tennant was at least a fully formed character, whether you like that character or not. Capaldi was whatever meme Moff was trying to push that week Another thing I will say that Tennant has over Capaldi is that RTD believed in him. Whilst it's true that RTD didn't like the character of the Doctor that much, he did genuinely think he struck gold with Tennant as an actor and during his era, he was constantly pushed as the greatest Doctor, RTD famously went to great lengths to show how the series would never be the same if he left etc. Capaldi meanwhile I think Moffat obviously wanted him at first but as Monster X said chickened out very early in his run, not just because he was scared of him being too old and intense for the New Who fans, but perhaps more importantly Moffat was also scared of the backlash he got from casting a white straight man instead of a woman. As a result of these doubts throughout most of the 12th Doctors era, Capaldi felt like a stop gap Doctor. IE the producers were saying "oh god we're so sorry we cast another straight white man in the role, don't worry we'll do everything we can to make sure the next Doctor is played by a woman." Hence Missy, a villain who was a terrible, TERRIBLE fit for his Doctor. Leaving aside my intense hatred of what she did to the Master, even as a villain in her own right she's a terrible fit for Capaldi. He's supposed to be a kick up the arse Doctor, who is a bit more ruthless and unpredictable than Tennant and Smith? That's what we were promised and his first few stories really push that, hinting he may have killed the robot, showing him do shady things in Into the Dalek etc. However Missy is a character that butchers cute fan girls, tries to kill the daughter of his oldest and dearest friend, kills guards for NO reason at all and gloats about how happy she is that she has made the guards infant child grow up without a father, and tries to trick the Doctor into killing his companion/twink and his response is....... to hug and kiss her and try and make her feel better about herself, be a good person and even justify her obscene crimes as being no worse than eating a bacon sandwich. Yeah real kick up the arse, no nonsense Doctor there. Also the idea of a flirty, femme fatale who wants the hero to show a bad girl how it's done is completely inappropriate for a hero like the Doctor, ie a more cerebral, older, intense hero. Capaldi would have been far better suited to playing against an old school Master, played by someone like Charles Dance, Simon Templeman, Jason Watkins, that could be a proper Moriarty figure for him and push him to his limits. However because she was a gender bent Time Lord who would pave the way for a female Doctor, then that didn't matter if she was ill suited to the current one and she had to be thrust upon us like a plague again and again during his era, constantly undermining him. Similarly having Capaldi shoot an unarmed man in cold blood despite being against the character of the Doctor in general, was still thrown in entirely so we could get a gender bending regeneration and set up a female Doctor (Moffat openly admitted to this in DW magazine and even said it's brilliant that the next Doctor can be a woman as a result of what he is doing now. How about focusing on the current Doctor Moffat?) Then there is also Clara taking centre stage to an insane extent and basically becoming a better Doctor than him, and even taking his place in the opening credits for one episode! All of that was clearly them saying "well until we have a female Doctor, we'll make sure that the male one isn't the main hero anymore." Also Peter Capaldi would ever be asked in interviews to promote his seasons was would the next Doctor be a woman, and of course he had to give the stock answer. "Yes, yes, yes, I hope it is and it will be marvellous I can't wait until I am replaced." Can you imagine what would have happened if he'd said what he really thought? There was one interview taken during his second season where he did say he was getting angry at people constantly asking him when he would leave the role, which provoked a HUGE backlash that Capaldi wasn't as big an ally of a female Doctor as people thought and he then had to keep his silence, with his Doctor subsequently apologizing for having genitals. Then of course we have the possibility of him being fired. Both Charlotte Moore and Chris Chibnall, Moff's successor said that they wanted a female Doctor, with Chibnall saying he'd only take the job if that happened, and we have Capaldi more or less hinting that he had been fired when asked if he was leaving at the end of this series, his response was "so I've been told." All of this meant that the 12th Doctor was inconsistent, barely developed and the actor playing him uncomfortable. It's no surprise that Capaldi in hindsight is even more bitter than Eccelston and will not talk about the show or ever reprise the role again. |
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Post by Monster X on Sept 21, 2023 10:24:04 GMT
Tennant was at least a fully formed character, whether you like that character or not. Capaldi was whatever meme Moff was trying to push that week Another thing I will say that Tennant has over Capaldi is that RTD believed in him. Whilst it's true that RTD didn't like the character of the Doctor that much, he did genuinely think he struck gold with Tennant as an actor and during his era, he was constantly pushed as the greatest Doctor, RTD famously went to great lengths to show how the series would never be the same if he left etc. Capaldi meanwhile I think Moffat obviously wanted him at first but as Monster X said chickened out very early in his run, not just because he was scared of him being too old and intense for the New Who fans, but perhaps more importantly Moffat was also scared of the backlash he got from casting a white straight man instead of a woman. As a result of these doubts throughout most of the 12th Doctors era, Capaldi felt like a stop gap Doctor. IE the producers were saying "oh god we're so sorry we cast another straight white man in the role, don't worry we'll do everything we can to make sure the next Doctor is played by a woman." Hence Missy, a villain who was a terrible, TERRIBLE fit for his Doctor. Leaving aside my intense hatred of what she did to the Master, even as a villain in her own right she's a terrible fit for Capaldi. He's supposed to be a kick up the arse Doctor, who is a bit more ruthless and unpredictable than Tennant and Smith? That's what we were promised and his first few stories really push that, hinting he may have killed the robot, showing him do shady things in Into the Dalek etc. However Missy is a character that butchers cute fan girls, tries to kill the daughter of his oldest and dearest friend, kills guards for NO reason at all and gloats about how happy she is that she has made the guards infant child grow up without a father, and tries to trick the Doctor into killing his companion/twink and his response is....... to hug and kiss her and try and make her feel better about herself, be a good person and even justify her obscene crimes as being no worse than eating a bacon sandwich. Yeah real kick up the arse, no nonsense Doctor there. Also the idea of a flirty, femme fatale who wants the hero to show a bad girl how it's done is completely inappropriate for a hero like the Doctor, ie a more cerebral, older, intense hero. Capaldi would have been far better suited to playing against an old school Master, played by someone like Charles Dance, Simon Templeman, Jason Watkins, that could be a proper Moriarty figure for him and push him to his limits. However because she was a gender bent Time Lord who would pave the way for a female Doctor, then that didn't matter if she was ill suited to the current one and she had to be thrust upon us like a plague again and again during his era, constantly undermining him. Similarly having Capaldi shoot an unarmed man in cold blood despite being against the character of the Doctor in general, was still thrown in entirely so we could get a gender bending regeneration and set up a female Doctor (Moffat openly admitted to this in DW magazine and even said it's brilliant that the next Doctor can be a woman as a result of what he is doing now. How about focusing on the current Doctor Moffat?) Then there is also Clara taking centre stage to an insane extent and basically becoming a better Doctor than him, and even taking his place in the opening credits for one episode! All of that was clearly them saying "well until we have a female Doctor, we'll make sure that the male one isn't the main hero anymore." Also Peter Capaldi would ever be asked in interviews to promote his seasons was would the next Doctor be a woman, and of course he had to give the stock answer. "Yes, yes, yes, I hope it is and it will be marvellous I can't wait until I am replaced." Can you imagine what would have happened if he'd said what he really thought? There was one interview taken during his second season where he did say he was getting angry at people constantly asking him when he would leave the role, which provoked a HUGE backlash that Capaldi wasn't as big an ally of a female Doctor as people thought and he then had to keep his silence, with his Doctor subsequently apologizing for having genitals. Then of course we have the possibility of him being fired. Both Charlotte Moore and Chris Chibnall, Moff's successor said that they wanted a female Doctor, with Chibnall saying he'd only take the job if that happened, and we have Capaldi more or less hinting that he had been fired when asked if he was leaving at the end of this series, his response was "so I've been told." All of this meant that the 12th Doctor was inconsistent, barely developed and the actor playing him uncomfortable. It's no surprise that Capaldi in hindsight is even more bitter than Eccelston and will not talk about the show or ever reprise the role again. Although he made some interesting comments in the Radio Times article; ' Peter Capaldi doesn't think Doctor Who supports 'darker' Doctor anymore' (2021):
"The default now is a kind of cosmic imp. Which is great. But I wanted to touch the dark winter nights. I’m not sure whether the brand supports that any more, but that’s what I was interested in."
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Post by rushy on Sept 21, 2023 12:45:09 GMT
We got the Doctor he wanted to be for about five minutes in Listen, and in Heaven Sent, and that's about it
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Post by Monster X on Sept 21, 2023 13:37:52 GMT
We got the Doctor he wanted to be for about five minutes in Listen, and in Heaven Sent, and that's about it Hmm.. ' Heaven Sent' is the only NuWho episode I could ever watch again, and while I enjoyed the start of ' Listen' ( Capaldi sat on top of the Tardis - then giving a slightly scary lecture about evolution) - the rest of it was pretty mediocre. I quite liked the more professorial/academic Doctor at the beginning of ' The Pilot', but he then had to start playing that damn guitar, so... you're probably right. I think of all the Nu lot, Capaldi would have really benefitted from having a season or two without a companion - though he's still my favourite (or least disliked) Post 2005 Doctor. |
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Post by UncleDeadly on Sept 21, 2023 13:54:45 GMT
Hmmm. I seem to have read that somewhere before... You saying this guy was on here? In a manner of speaking... |
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Post by UncleDeadly on Sept 21, 2023 13:57:15 GMT
It does vaguely ring a bell. Perhaps from an old iteration of the forum. Not necessarily the same person, mind, could be just a phrase they read that stuck in their mind. It would do. It's lifted straight from one of my old ArcHive posts:- "Gene Roddenberry kept a copy of Asimov's Guide to Science on his desk. Russell had Hello! magazine on his..." "What's the use of a good quotation if you can't change it..?"  |
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Post by rushy on Sept 21, 2023 13:58:12 GMT
We got the Doctor he wanted to be for about five minutes in Listen, and in Heaven Sent, and that's about it Hmm.. ' Heaven Sent' is the only NuWho episode I could ever watch again, and while I enjoyed the start of ' Listen' ( Capaldi sat on top of the Tardis - then giving a slightly scary lecture about evolution) - the rest of it was pretty mediocre. I quite liked the more professorial/academic Doctor at the beginning of ' The Pilot', but he then had to start playing that damn guitar, so... you're probably right. I think of all the Nu lot, Capaldi would have really benefitted from having a season or two without a companion - though he's still my favourite (or least disliked) Post 2005 Doctor. I agree. They gave Capaldi a lot of meta scenes where he addressed the audience directly, which I found quite interesting. And he definitely shined from not having to do silly banter in those scenes. |
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Post by burrunjor on Sept 21, 2023 18:14:39 GMT
It does vaguely ring a bell. Perhaps from an old iteration of the forum. Not necessarily the same person, mind, could be just a phrase they read that stuck in their mind. It would do. It's lifted straight from one of my old ArcHive posts:- "Gene Roddenberry kept a copy of Asimov's Guide to Science on his desk. Russell had Hello! magazine on his..." "What's the use of a good quotation if you can't change it..?" Ha you're famous. I'm guessing it may be a former Hiver. Glitz or Bryan Braddock perhaps? Whatever happened to those guys? |
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Post by burrunjor on Sept 21, 2023 18:16:44 GMT
That's because it stars Rowan Atkinson and Jonathan Pryce, not because Moff wrote it. Maybe - or perhaps Moffat was simply better at writing Doctor Who stories before he had to conform to the 2005 RTD template . I also like Richard E Grant and Joanna Lumley in Curse - their performances last just a few minutes but still manage to capture the essential 'Doctor' quality. Sorry but I don't think Joanna Lumley came close at all. I'm against any woman ever playing the Doctor for reasons that I've been over before so I won't do so again. It's kind of sad the way that support for a female Doctor seems to be bigger now than ever. If you dare to say you don't want it, everyone assumes you're a sexist, when just a few years ago that wasn't the case. I don't get it? Why? It's now a proven failure with Jodie? |
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Post by Monster X on Sept 21, 2023 19:05:46 GMT
Maybe - or perhaps Moffat was simply better at writing Doctor Who stories before he had to conform to the 2005 RTD template . I also like Richard E Grant and Joanna Lumley in Curse - their performances last just a few minutes but still manage to capture the essential 'Doctor' quality. Sorry but I don't think Joanna Lumley came close at all. I'm against any woman ever playing the Doctor for reasons that I've been over before so I won't do so again. It's kind of sad the way that support for a female Doctor seems to be bigger now than ever. If you dare to say you don't want it, everyone assumes you're a sexist, when just a few years ago that wasn't the case. I don't get it? Why? It's now a proven failure with Jodie? It was very nice in 1999 to see Ms. Lumley joining in the fun, but there's a big difference between doing a quick, one-off comedy skit, and appearing as the character in an ongoing series. I used to support the notion of a woman in the role of the Doctor (in theory, at least), but thanks to Jodie Whittaker, I'm now against the whole idea. Partly because JW was so bad, but also because it made me realize that the idea is unworkable, and throws up problems for the series that I didn't anticipate. My wife, in her wisdom, was always against the idea of the Doctor being portrayed by a woman (although she also enjoyed Joanna Lumley's performance in Curse). |
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Post by rushy on Sept 21, 2023 19:08:46 GMT
I don't think it's unworkable. It's not a decision I would ever have made, but there are great actresses there who could make it work. Diana Rigg would've been a brilliant Doctor
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Post by Monster X on Sept 21, 2023 20:46:36 GMT
I don't think it's unworkable. It's not a decision I would ever have made, but there are great actresses there who could make it work. Diana Rigg would've been a brilliant Doctor I'm a big fan of Diana Rigg and The Avengers, and all the other smashing stuff she did ( well, apart from 'The Crimson Horror'), and I admit, it's very tempting to imagine DR as the Dr. However, beyond the novelty value, I no longer see the point of any actress in the role (though I did enjoy Arabella Weir as an inebriated Doctor in the Big Finish Unbound story 'Exile') - let's leave it at that. |
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Post by iank on Sept 21, 2023 20:52:17 GMT
Diana Rigg would have made a brilliant Romana. But she couldn't possibly have made a brilliant Doctor, as the Doctor is a man.
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