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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2023 23:41:26 GMT
If you completely disconnect his era from the classic series and just view it as a regular mid 00s show does it still hold up?
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Post by iank on Sept 14, 2023 1:02:36 GMT
No. Without that connection, I would have given up at series 2.
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Post by rushy on Sept 14, 2023 12:29:50 GMT
If you completely disconnect his era from the classic series and just view it as a regular mid 00s show does it still hold up? Worked fine for me, I'd never seen any Classic Who before it. As for whether it holds up, I think series 1, 3 and 4 do. 2 is the outlier. |
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Post by zarius on Sept 14, 2023 13:29:54 GMT
Series 2 would have gotten the show cancelled if Grade were still young.
That aside, series 1, 3, and 4 are all bangers, and I can still watch them. I can't say that about much of series 6-10. Even Jodie's era is more rewatchable than those. Some exceptions aside (series five, 50th, Heaven Sent/Hell Bent, Extremis, World/Falls), I just didn't take to Moffat at all.
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Post by Monster X on Sept 14, 2023 16:06:24 GMT
I was so excited at the time, but I now find the whole of the Davies era unwatchable - it's almost like a pisstake or parody of the Classic series. Had it been a completely new, rebooted, reimagined version of Doctor Who, disassociated from Classic series continuity, I may have looked on it more favourably, but then, NuWho isn't really my kind of TV drama anyway. I'd watch the Soaps if I wanted that sort of thing.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2023 16:42:29 GMT
I was so excited at the time, but I now find the whole of the Davies era unwatchable. Had it been a completely new, rebooted, reimagined version of Who, disassociated from Classic series continuity, I may have looked on it more favourably, but then, NuWho isn't really my kind of TV drama anyway. I'd watch the Soaps if I wanted that sort of thing. I still enjoy watching some of it, but that soap label is dead on. Series 1 is a soap dressed up as a science fiction series. Father's Day is the worst example of this. Rose's dad calls Jackie a "stupid cow" and I was half expecting the "DUN DUN DUN DUNNNUN" opening of the Eastenders theme to kick in. |
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Post by Monster X on Sept 14, 2023 16:50:09 GMT
I was so excited at the time, but I now find the whole of the Davies era unwatchable. Had it been a completely new, rebooted, reimagined version of Who, disassociated from Classic series continuity, I may have looked on it more favourably, but then, NuWho isn't really my kind of TV drama anyway. I'd watch the Soaps if I wanted that sort of thing. I still enjoy watching some of it, but that soap label is dead on. Series 1 is a soap dressed up as a science fiction series. Father's Day is the worst example of this. Rose's dad calls Jackie a "stupid cow" and I was half expecting the "DUN DUN DUN DUNNNUN" opening of the Eastenders theme to kick in.  Agreed about Father's Day - I wrote this a few years ago: - "Father's Day was NuWho at it's most soapy and tear-jerkingly sentimental - like a particularly maudlin episode of EastEnders (with monsters). I think 'EastEnders with monsters' is exactly how Davies wanted his brave new show to be." |
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Post by burrunjor on Sept 14, 2023 19:44:22 GMT
Overall yes.
There are a lot of good ideas and monsters in there like the Angels, the Flood, the year 100 trillion, even the Time War at first. I also appreciate that RTD unlike other Who writers at least tried to make a more consistent version of the future and lore in a lot of his stories. I'd also say most of it is enjoyable decades on, even just as a campy, OTT adventure show. It was also fairly original and influential in terms of its style.
RTD merged the soap opera, angsty, bombastic, huge spectacle, supernatural style of American genre series starring hunky leads and gorgeous Hollywood types popular at that time in shows like Xena, Buffy, Charmed, Smallville with the more old fashioned, cynical, low key, sci fi with unconventional leads from British shows throughout the 60s-80s like classic who, Blake's 7, Quatermass etc.
Doing so could have been risky, as obviously one could be in danger of cancelling out the other, but for most he seemed to get the balance just right, hence its popularity on both sides of the Atlantic. Definitely for me the best of his era like Torchwood Children of Earth, Waters of Mars, Army of Ghosts/Doomsday, Blink, Utopia, The gas mask two parter, the Library two parter are all prime examples of both of these styles being merged successfully. Having a more romantic, at times almost paranormal flair than the bulk of Classic who, but being perhaps a bit more self aware and wry and sarcy than say Buffy or Smallville. Ultimately this style would be used for a whole generation of British genre shows that came after. Primeval, Being Human, Merlin etc. If nothing else you have to give it credit for that.
Also I liked a lot of its supporting characters and actors like Freema Agyeman, Billie Piper etc.
However that said it does have its faults beyond just not being faithful to DW. Whilst RTD may have been a good producer in some ways, he wasn't always the best writer. I have perhaps been a bit too harsh in saying he was completely crap LOL. He did write some inspired sci fi and horror stories. (His strength seems to actually be as a horror writer as he had a talent for doing possession stories.) The Waters of Mars, The Next Doctor, Army of Ghosts/Doomsday, Smith and Jones, Turn Left, Midnight, Utopia, The Sound of Drums, all good to great stories he penned.
However he could be like any writer self indulgent and worse because he had the coveted role of showrunner, and does sadly seem to be a bit of a bully and also has a clique of his own friends around it, NO ONE told him to hold it back,. As a result his bad stories are really, really, really, really shit. They are filled with all his pedantic interests regardless of how ill fitting they are for Who, or how much they date it, his own petty little grudges against Ian Levine, his own prejudices etc.
Still all shows have their problems and overall I'd say that it works as a remake of DW like the Cushing movies and deserves its place as a prominent and influential show.
The fact that it is very soapy doesn't actually bother me. Sci fi can and should merge with soap opera every now and again. Some of the best fantasy and sci fi shows are soaps like Spider-Man and Buffy. My only beef was that it didn't fit DW as the Doctor is a distant, alien character so trying to domesticate him as it were takes away from that.
I will say that RTD's legacy is the thing that is in most danger from the Timeless Children. Watching all these Pertwee's back has made me realise that its so disconnected from classic who in every way that honestly the original will always exist in a bubble. However the fact that RTD's era runs into the Timeless Children and also the fact that New Who as a show in its own right hasn't been a mainstream success since 2013, does mean that when it finishes, subsequent generations might look at it as being a bit more of a flop than we do. It's kind of like the Simpsons, that yes the early years are respected, but now it is known as a show that outstayed its welcome just as much.
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Post by rushy on Sept 14, 2023 19:46:25 GMT
How does RTD's era run into the Timeless Children?
If anything, his tenure is much more harmed by Moffat's Day of the Doctor retcon.
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Post by iank on Sept 14, 2023 20:46:36 GMT
I always say RTD is completely untalented, but that's not entirely true. He's a first class conman/snake oil salesman.
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Post by Monster X on Sept 14, 2023 21:11:39 GMT
Overall yes. There are a lot of good ideas and monsters in there like the Angels, the Flood, the year 100 trillion, even the Time War at first. I also appreciate that RTD unlike other Who writers at least tried to make a more consistent version of the future and lore in a lot of his stories. I'd also say most of it is enjoyable decades on, even just as a campy, OTT adventure show. It was also fairly original and influential in terms of its style. RTD merged the soap opera, angsty, bombastic, huge spectacle, supernatural style of American genre series starring hunky leads and gorgeous Hollywood types popular at that time in shows like Xena, Buffy, Charmed, Smallville with the more old fashioned, cynical, low key, sci fi with unconventional leads from British shows throughout the 60s-80s like classic who, Blake's 7, Quatermass etc. Doing so could have been risky, as obviously one could be in danger of cancelling out the other, but for most he seemed to get the balance just right, hence its popularity on both sides of the Atlantic. Definitely for me the best of his era like Torchwood Children of Earth, Waters of Mars, Army of Ghosts/Doomsday, Blink, Utopia, The gas mask two parter, the Library two parter are all prime examples of both of these styles being merged successfully. Having a more romantic, at times almost paranormal flair than the bulk of Classic who, but being perhaps a bit more self aware and wry and sarcy than say Buffy or Smallville. Ultimately this style would be used for a whole generation of British genre shows that came after. Primeval, Being Human, Merlin etc. If nothing else you have to give it credit for that. Also I liked a lot of its supporting characters and actors like Freema Agyeman, Billie Piper etc. However that said it does have its faults beyond just not being faithful to DW. Whilst RTD may have been a good producer in some ways, he wasn't always the best writer. I have perhaps been a bit too harsh in saying he was completely crap LOL. He did write some inspired sci fi and horror stories. (His strength seems to actually be as a horror writer as he had a talent for doing possession stories.) The Waters of Mars, The Next Doctor, Army of Ghosts/Doomsday, Smith and Jones, Turn Left, Midnight, Utopia, The Sound of Drums, all good to great stories he penned. However he could be like any writer self indulgent and worse because he had the coveted role of showrunner, and does sadly seem to be a bit of a bully and also has a clique of his own friends around it, NO ONE told him to hold it back,. As a result his bad stories are really, really, really, really shit. They are filled with all his pedantic interests regardless of how ill fitting they are for Who, or how much they date it, his own petty little grudges against Ian Levine, his own prejudices etc. Still all shows have their problems and overall I'd say that it works as a remake of DW like the Cushing movies and deserves its place as a prominent and influential show. The fact that it is very soapy doesn't actually bother me. Sci fi can and should merge with soap opera every now and again. Some of the best fantasy and sci fi shows are soaps like Spider-Man and Buffy. My only beef was that it didn't fit DW as the Doctor is a distant, alien character so trying to domesticate him as it were takes away from that. I will say that RTD's legacy is the thing that is in most danger from the Timeless Children. Watching all these Pertwee's back has made me realise that its so disconnected from classic who in every way that honestly the original will always exist in a bubble. However the fact that RTD's era runs into the Timeless Children and also the fact that New Who as a show in its own right hasn't been a mainstream success since 2013, does mean that when it finishes, subsequent generations might look at it as being a bit more of a flop than we do. It's kind of like the Simpsons, that yes the early years are respected, but now it is known as a show that outstayed its welcome just as much.
Maybe there's an argument to be made for having occasional Who stories that are more personal, more domestic and more relationship-orientated than usual, but the problem with Davies' brand of Soap was that it was so poorly written, so heavy handed - mawkish, overly sentimental and cloying ( "He's left me, mum. He's left me."). There was no subtlety or finesse - just an overload of cliched, sickly emotion, accompanied by Murray Gold's soppy music. Sorry, not really a fan of Spider-man or Buffy ( though I love Steve Ditko's artwork on '60's Spidey). But I totally agree with your comment about the Doctor being alien and therefore an unsuitable candidate for domestication.   |
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Post by iank on Sept 14, 2023 21:17:40 GMT
I find it rather insulting using a Buffy comparison. Yes, it's clearly trying to rip it off often, as RTD was always an unoriginal hack in the Chinballs mould, but with none of the subtlety or intelligence. It's like comparing Arc of Infinity to Deadly Assassin.
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Post by burrunjor on Sept 14, 2023 21:58:20 GMT
Overall yes. There are a lot of good ideas and monsters in there like the Angels, the Flood, the year 100 trillion, even the Time War at first. I also appreciate that RTD unlike other Who writers at least tried to make a more consistent version of the future and lore in a lot of his stories. I'd also say most of it is enjoyable decades on, even just as a campy, OTT adventure show. It was also fairly original and influential in terms of its style. RTD merged the soap opera, angsty, bombastic, huge spectacle, supernatural style of American genre series starring hunky leads and gorgeous Hollywood types popular at that time in shows like Xena, Buffy, Charmed, Smallville with the more old fashioned, cynical, low key, sci fi with unconventional leads from British shows throughout the 60s-80s like classic who, Blake's 7, Quatermass etc. Doing so could have been risky, as obviously one could be in danger of cancelling out the other, but for most he seemed to get the balance just right, hence its popularity on both sides of the Atlantic. Definitely for me the best of his era like Torchwood Children of Earth, Waters of Mars, Army of Ghosts/Doomsday, Blink, Utopia, The gas mask two parter, the Library two parter are all prime examples of both of these styles being merged successfully. Having a more romantic, at times almost paranormal flair than the bulk of Classic who, but being perhaps a bit more self aware and wry and sarcy than say Buffy or Smallville. Ultimately this style would be used for a whole generation of British genre shows that came after. Primeval, Being Human, Merlin etc. If nothing else you have to give it credit for that. Also I liked a lot of its supporting characters and actors like Freema Agyeman, Billie Piper etc. However that said it does have its faults beyond just not being faithful to DW. Whilst RTD may have been a good producer in some ways, he wasn't always the best writer. I have perhaps been a bit too harsh in saying he was completely crap LOL. He did write some inspired sci fi and horror stories. (His strength seems to actually be as a horror writer as he had a talent for doing possession stories.) The Waters of Mars, The Next Doctor, Army of Ghosts/Doomsday, Smith and Jones, Turn Left, Midnight, Utopia, The Sound of Drums, all good to great stories he penned. However he could be like any writer self indulgent and worse because he had the coveted role of showrunner, and does sadly seem to be a bit of a bully and also has a clique of his own friends around it, NO ONE told him to hold it back,. As a result his bad stories are really, really, really, really shit. They are filled with all his pedantic interests regardless of how ill fitting they are for Who, or how much they date it, his own petty little grudges against Ian Levine, his own prejudices etc. Still all shows have their problems and overall I'd say that it works as a remake of DW like the Cushing movies and deserves its place as a prominent and influential show. The fact that it is very soapy doesn't actually bother me. Sci fi can and should merge with soap opera every now and again. Some of the best fantasy and sci fi shows are soaps like Spider-Man and Buffy. My only beef was that it didn't fit DW as the Doctor is a distant, alien character so trying to domesticate him as it were takes away from that. I will say that RTD's legacy is the thing that is in most danger from the Timeless Children. Watching all these Pertwee's back has made me realise that its so disconnected from classic who in every way that honestly the original will always exist in a bubble. However the fact that RTD's era runs into the Timeless Children and also the fact that New Who as a show in its own right hasn't been a mainstream success since 2013, does mean that when it finishes, subsequent generations might look at it as being a bit more of a flop than we do. It's kind of like the Simpsons, that yes the early years are respected, but now it is known as a show that outstayed its welcome just as much.
Maybe there's an argument to be made for having occasional Who stories that are more personal, more domestic and more relationship-orientated than usual, but the problem with Davies' brand of Soap was that it was so poorly written, so heavy handed - mawkish, overly sentimental and cloying ( "He's left me, mum. He's left me."). There was no subtlety or finesse - just an overload of cliched, sickly emotion, accompanied by Murray Gold's soppy music. Sorry, not really a fan of Spider-man or Buffy ( though I love Steve Ditko's artwork on '60's Spidey). But I totally agree with your comment about the Doctor being alien and therefore an unsuitable candidate for domestication. View Attachment Oh that's absolutely fine to not like any sci fi soap opera. It's all just taste, my point was though that sci fi can and should merge with any type of genre. IE there should be action sci fi stories, romantic sci fi stories, horror sci fi stories, sci fantasy stories etc. So yes there should be sci fi or fantasy soap operas too. I think a lot of people often act like those two genres are polar opposites, but that's not true. To be honest all of Marvel comics was a soap opera, Iron Man with his alcoholism, the X-Men with their focus on whose getting off with who, the mutants personal lives, the Fantastic Four and their family dynamics etc. That is what made it and Buffy stand out in their respective eras. Superheroes at that point where all larger than life, never had any failings, lived in complete fantasy worlds, so Marvel characters who still dealt with relationship troubles, struggled to pay the rent and dealt with villains who were metaphors for real life problems etc. All of that helped ground the fantasy and speak to the young audience, whilst still retaining a fantasy element by masking it up in superhero/supernatural terms. Buffy meanwhile similarly at that point was a breath of fresh air, because female heroes had generally been portrayed as larger than life characters. Wonder Woman Emma Peel, Ripley, Xena the Warrior Princess. etc, all unbelievable badasses who never had to deal with real world shit. It's understandable as obviously the writers wanted to combat the sexist idea of "as if a woman could ever be a hero." However Buffy was vulnerable but in a real, relatable way with her monsters also being metaphors for real life problems so she once again clicked with the younger audiences who could relate. Again however the Doctor just doesn't fit that type of hero in any way. He's an alien, so he really shouldn't deal with the same problems we do. He's mysterious so you can't wallow in his upbringing. He's several hundred of thousand years old, so it's not like he's a young character that the young audience can relate too. He essentially lives outside the real world in a blue box where everything is provided for him, food, a place to sleep, entertainment etc so how can you have him struggle with everyday problems. Also the whole point of his TARDIS is to take you away from the real world. He's basically Peter Pan or a benevolent Pied Piper that kids like because he whisks you away to a crazy world of monsters and supervillains. One can argue that his companions basically get a chance to be kids again when they journey with him, and a lot of the time when they leave that's them finally growing up, like Jo Grant. The problem however was because the Fitzroy Clique look down on the classic era, and because of how badly classic who had been slandered by panel show c*nts and media whores, then they didn't think "let's play to the actual strengths of the character and maybe take influence from Buffy in a way that is appropriate IE maybe let's focus on the supernatural elements like the McCoy era did, or maybe let's do more gritty, urban horror stories." They thought "let's just make it completely like Buffy, because our elitist friends don't sneer at that because it's soapy and stars young, hot people." And again a lot of the fans felt the same way out of self loathing. Clever Dick Films more or less says this in his video about the 9th Doctor, uironically. I like Clever Dick Films to be clear. He is a very nice man, but he does tow the party line a lot. As a result, yeah the soap opera of the RTD era is jarring and out of place with what the character is supposed to be, but ultimately it did resonate with a lot of young people who still found the characters relatable. Personally I do agree that the way he wrote a lot of his characters was stereotypical. Rose is very much a upper middle class Oxford toff's idea of a working class gal. Ironically RTD's best four stories are all set in other times. Waters of Mars, Utopia, The Next Doctor and Midnight. Maybe even he didn't know his own strengths LOL. |
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Post by burrunjor on Sept 14, 2023 22:31:09 GMT
I find it rather insulting using a Buffy comparison. Yes, it's clearly trying to rip it off often, as RTD was always an unoriginal hack in the Chinballs mould, but with none of the subtlety or intelligence. It's like comparing Arc of Infinity to Deadly Assassin. Actually I don't know if I said this before, but I think the history of Buffy matches Classic Who quite well. Buffy season 1 = 60s Who. Both great solid eras, that introduced a lot of the classic characters, enemies, elements etc and in some ways is the show at its most imaginative. However both are obviously a lot cheaper and very much of their time. 60s Who is far more of its decade than the 70s. Other than a few fashion styles, the 70s doesn't reference bands or current events in quite the same way the 60s era does. Buffy season 1 meanwhile is possibly the most 90s thing ever made LOL. Still both are quite charming as little time capsules that way. Buffy seasons 2 and 3 = Pertwee and Hinchcliff era. Generally regarded as the absolute peak of their respective series, and also when they were the most popular with the public and critics alike. Buffy season 4 and Angel season 1 = Williams era. Hugely popular eras when they aired and both still have devoted fans, however they are more polarizing than any previous era for the same reasons. Both are lighter, Williams obviously has Adams, Buffy season 4 is the funniest season and Angel season 1 is lighter in terms of just being cases of the week. Personally I like all 3 because of their lighter qualities, Buffy season 4 in particular is a breath of fresh after the relentless misery of seasons 2 and 3. It's nice to see her enjoy herself for once, but still more serious fans hate them for that. Both Buffy season 4 and Williams era however contain two of the most beloved individual stories, City of Death and Hush. Buffy season 5, Angel season 2 = Davison era. All were seen as a return to form for being darker, more serious eras, and both Buffy and DW killed main characters in shocking ways. However both were still not as beloved as the earlier seasons, because in contrast a lot of people felt they sucked all the fun out of the previous lighter eras. Also many feel the seeds of what went wrong where sown in these eras, which leads too. Buffy season 6, Angel season 3 and Colin Bakers first season. All are when things start to go wrong in most people's eyes for similar reasons. All three are relentlessly dark and grim and have the characters do horrible things, like Colin strangling Peri, Spike trying to rape Buffy, Angel smothering Wesley with the pillow, Wesley stealing the baby. A lot of people felt these scenes were nasty and out of character too. Also Buffy season 6 and Colin's first season have been accused of trying to recapture something that worked in the previous era. IE Buffy got praise because of The Body that eschewed the fantasy elements and focused on real life problems, and similarly a lot of Colin's first season was trying to recapture Caves of Androzani for its grittiness and villain wanting to shag Peri, but in all cases we got inferior retreads, like Spuffy, Xander dumping Anya and Timelash LOL. Buffy season 7, Angel season 4 = Trial of a Time Lord. This is all when it goes to shit for the same reasons. In both cases the network lost faith in them (and indeed Angel was briefly cancelled temporarily too.) Beyond that however the head honcho, Joss Whedon and JNT also went downhill for similar reasons. In fact the parallels between them are quite striking. Both JNT and Whedon started out as decent guys, but both were worshipped by fans, went to conventions where they were treated like the Beatles, and the more popular their shows became, the more they came to see it as their empire and lost their heads. Both shagged their way through the fans and groupies. (There's a similar story of JNT shagging a fan in the middle of giving a phone interview, and of Whedon shagging a fan girl whilst in the middle of talking to a writer about a story!) Both also played favourites with their cast, fell out with certain actors and bullied them like Nicola Bryant, Charisma Carpenter, both bullied their actors (JNT's treatment of Sophie constantly making her feel she could be fired was like what Joss did to Charisma.) Both even threatened to blacklist people too and didn't listen to the actors and writers, insisting it all go their way. (IE ignoring James Marsters concerns about Spuffy, Colin hating the coat.) Finally it all blew up in their faces this year, and the result is they are all terrible for the same reason. Buffy season 7, Angel season 4 and Trial try to do a big epic story that covers the entire season. (More so in Angels case than before.) However due to the crumbling empire behind the scenes the story goes round in circles, contradicts itself, gets tangled up because people are barely able to keep track and in all three cases it ends in a fairly dull way. (Though season 7 of Buffy is okay IMO, it does suffer from these issues.) Finally in both cases one actor is made the fall guy for everything that went wrong and fired in a cowardly way, where someone else has to do the deed. Colin Baker and Charisma Carpenter. Given neither character is given a send off either, it just makes it all the more uncomfortable. Angel season 5 = Sylvester McCoy era. After the near cancellation and everything going tits up the previous year, Joss and JNT calm down a bit this year and a re more willing to listen to people and do their job properly again. In both cases it takes a short while to get better and we have some duds like Paradise Towers and the Harmony episode, but eventually once they get their groove back then both eras end up becoming a new golden age. Not only do they produce some of the best stories they ever did, but they also fix things that went wrong previous eras, like Spike becoming a pansy, the Master being overused and not being threatening anymore, Daleks undermined for Davros etc. Sadly however both got cancelled for the same reasons, petty backstage politics and grudges and dislike of the genre and the new golden ages are never able to get off the ground, but in the long run this ends up being a good thing as it means both franchises bow up when they are at their best which secures their reputations among genre fans for generations to come. |
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Post by iank on Sept 14, 2023 22:33:04 GMT
Y'see... there's your problem. I love season 4 of Angel, it's the best of the whole show to me (not really a big fan compared to Buffy or even other genre shows such as B5, Fringe or Person of Interest). I could give zero f*cks about behind the scenes dramas, it's the most actually fun and exciting season that show ever did IMO.
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