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Post by rushy on Sept 14, 2023 22:45:32 GMT
all I read was "beloved" and "City of Death" in the same sentence, and it spooked me into an existential crisis
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Post by Monster X on Sept 14, 2023 22:47:40 GMT
"The fact that it is very soapy doesn't actually bother me. Sci fi can and should merge with soap opera every now and again. Some of the best fantasy and sci fi shows are soaps like Spider-Man and Buffy. My only beef was that it didn't fit DW as the Doctor is a distant, alien character so trying to domesticate him as it were takes away from that".
Maybe there's an argument to be made for having occasional Who stories that are more personal, more domestic and more relationship-orientated than usual, but the problem with Davies' brand of Soap was that it was so poorly written, so heavy handed - mawkish, overly sentimental and cloying ( "He's left me, mum. He's left me."). There was no subtlety or finesse - just an overload of cliched, sickly emotion, accompanied by Murray Gold's soppy music. Sorry, not really a fan of Spider-man or Buffy ( though I love Steve Ditko's artwork on '60's Spidey). But I totally agree with your comment about the Doctor being alien and therefore an unsuitable candidate for domestication.  View Attachment Oh that's absolutely fine to not like any sci fi soap opera. It's all just taste, my point was though that sci fi can and should merge with any type of genre. IE there should be action sci fi stories, romantic sci fi stories, horror sci fi stories, sci fantasy stories etc. So yes there should be sci fi or fantasy soap operas too. I think a lot of people often act like those two genres are polar opposites, but that's not true. To be honest all of Marvel comics was a soap opera, Iron Man with his alcoholism, the X-Men with their focus on whose getting off with who, the mutants personal lives, the Fantastic Four and their family dynamics etc. That is what made it and Buffy stand out in their respective eras. Superheroes at that point where all larger than life, never had any failings, lived in complete fantasy worlds, so Marvel characters who still dealt with relationship troubles, struggled to pay the rent and dealt with villains who were metaphors for real life problems etc. All of that helped ground the fantasy and speak to the young audience, whilst still retaining a fantasy element by masking it up in superhero/supernatural terms. Buffy meanwhile similarly at that point was a breath of fresh air, because female heroes had generally been portrayed as larger than life characters. Wonder Woman Emma Peel, Ripley, Xena the Warrior Princess. etc, all unbelievable badasses who never had to deal with real world shit. It's understandable as obviously the writers wanted to combat the sexist idea of "as if a woman could ever be a hero." However Buffy was vulnerable but in a real, relatable way with her monsters also being metaphors for real life problems so she once again clicked with the younger audiences who could relate. Again however the Doctor just doesn't fit that type of hero in any way. He's an alien, so he really shouldn't deal with the same problems we do. He's mysterious so you can't wallow in his upbringing. He's several hundred of thousand years old, so it's not like he's a young character that the young audience can relate too. He essentially lives outside the real world in a blue box where everything is provided for him, food, a place to sleep, entertainment etc so how can you have him struggle with everyday problems. Also the whole point of his TARDIS is to take you away from the real world. He's basically Peter Pan or a benevolent Pied Piper that kids like because he whisks you away to a crazy world of monsters and supervillains. One can argue that his companions basically get a chance to be kids again when they journey with him, and a lot of the time when they leave that's them finally growing up, like Jo Grant. The problem however was because the Fitzroy Clique look down on the classic era, and because of how badly classic who had been slandered by panel show c*nts and media whores, then they didn't think "let's play to the actual strengths of the character and maybe take influence from Buffy in a way that is appropriate IE maybe let's focus on the supernatural elements like the McCoy era did, or maybe let's do more gritty, urban horror stories." They thought "let's just make it completely like Buffy, because our elitist friends don't sneer at that because it's soapy and stars young, hot people." And again a lot of the fans felt the same way out of self loathing. Clever Dick Films more or less says this in his video about the 9th Doctor, uironically. I like Clever Dick Films to be clear. He is a very nice man, but he does tow the party line a lot. As a result, yeah the soap opera of the RTD era is jarring and out of place with what the character is supposed to be, but ultimately it did resonate with a lot of young people who still found the characters relatable. Personally I do agree that the way he wrote a lot of his characters was stereotypical. Rose is very much a upper middle class Oxford toff's idea of a working class gal. Ironically RTD's best four stories are all set in other times. Waters of Mars, Utopia, The Next Doctor and Midnight. Maybe even he didn't know his own strengths LOL. Some good points made here, especially; "the soap opera of the RTD era is jarring and out of place with what the character is supposed to be" - very true, well said and "Rose is very much a upper middle class Oxford toff's idea of a working class gal" -also true. Also: "To be honest all of Marvel comics was a soap opera,"
Yes indeed, which is one of the reasons why I dont read Marvel comics or bother with the MCU. I much prefer the 2000AD characters - Dredd, Strontium Dog, Halo Jones, etc. Totally unrelated, but I still haven't shown you that Amy Winehouse cartoon....  |
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Post by burrunjor on Sept 15, 2023 9:05:09 GMT
Y'see... there's your problem. I love season 4 of Angel, it's the best of the whole show to me (not really a big fan compared to Buffy or even other genre shows such as B5, Fringe or Person of Interest). I could give zero f*cks about behind the scenes dramas, it's the most actually fun and exciting season that show ever did IMO. Well it's not so much taste more how these eras are perceived among fans and yes what went on behind the scenes.) Fact is Angel season 4 objectively is a mess because the production team were in a shambles just like Trial. In fact in yet another parallel Charisma Carpenter and Colin Baker both didn't even know who they were playing, literally. Colin famously wasn't sure if when the Doctor was torturing Peri, he was still the Doctor and he and Peri were faking it, or if it was a lie told by the Valeyard, or if he was brainwashed. He asked JNT, Eric Saward and the writer of the story who all told him they didn't know and to ask someone else. Hence why his performance is all over the place and awful. Charisma similarly had no idea if she was playing Cordelia, or a monster wearing her meatsuit, or Cordelia under the influence of something until her last few episodes. I will say she does a better job than Colin of not being so OTT, but even then her performance is still all over the place because the script is. There are moments where the writers clearly did intend for her to still be Cordelia, like the bit where she gets the flashback of Angelus and the Beast on her own and is shocked. That makes no sense if it is just Jasmine in that scene who knows everything, which we are later told it is. Also other things like her blotting out the sun, her pretending to have no memory etc, make no sense when you look at Jasmine's later character. Gina Torres Jasmine is ruthless but compassionate in some respects. She wants to help humanity, so why she would blot out the sun and turn LA into a vampire town? Who knows. At that point they were just writing her as a demon goddess and Charisma plays her accordingly as sadistic, sexy and pure evil, whilst Gina later plays her as genuinely misguided and passionate in helping humanity and tearful when they see her as a monster. Clearly in all cases the writers were just making it up as they went along and had no idea what to do with Cordelia or Jasmine until the end. Also finally due to the abrupt and awful way in which Charisma and Colin were let go, then there is no closure for their characters in the show itself. IE Colin one of the 7 Doctors last words are "Carrot Juice, Carrot Juice, Carrot Juice!" Whilst the last we see of Cordelia who has been in it since the pilot is her lying down with her twink standing over her, trying to blow her up before she is left to rot in a coma. (Season 5 rectified this, but even then that was only a last minute decision as originally Buffy was to come back in that episode. Had it not been for a death in Sarah Michelle Gellar's family, then Cordelia would still be lying in a coma today.) |
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Post by iank on Sept 15, 2023 21:45:41 GMT
There again is your problem... You're too immersed in the behind the scenes nonsense. I couldn't give a feck about what's going on behind the scenes. I don't want to know, and it sure as hell doesn't affect my enjoyment of the thing that's actually important which is what's onscreen. Most of the rest of Angel (esp seasons 2 and 3) bore the tits off me, while 4 is an absolute hoot.
To be honest, I never really cared for Cordelia much anyway, and I thought the whole attempt to do a lurve story with her and Angel was ridiculously unconvincing.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2023 22:36:44 GMT
I hate to say it, but I find the Moffat era unwatchable for the most part. Call it nostalgia or whatever, but I can at least pick out a dozen or so stories from the RTD era and genuinely enjoy them if I disconnect it from TruWho. I just can't enjoy Moffat's era now.
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Post by burrunjor on Sept 15, 2023 23:02:45 GMT
There again is your problem... You're too immersed in the behind the scenes nonsense. I couldn't give a feck about what's going on behind the scenes. I don't want to know, and it sure as hell doesn't affect my enjoyment of the thing that's actually important which is what's onscreen. Most of the rest of Angel (esp seasons 2 and 3) bore the tits off me, while 4 is an absolute hoot. To be honest, I never really cared for Cordelia much anyway, and I thought the whole attempt to do a lurve story with her and Angel was ridiculously unconvincing. I am not saying the behind the scenes stuff ruins it for one minute. If anything it explains it to me. The point was that season 4 made no sense. Like I said Cordelia switches from being completely in the dark and innocent to evil mastermind and it doesn't add up at all. Jasmine's character changes completely from one actress to another. There is no consistency and it's all over the place, and the reason it is bad is because honestly they just didn't care. |
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Post by rushy on Sept 15, 2023 23:11:20 GMT
I hate to say it, but I find the Moffat era unwatchable for the most part. Call it nostalgia or whatever, but I can at least pick out a dozen or so stories from the RTD era and genuinely enjoy them if I disconnect it from TruWho. I just can't enjoy Moffat's era now. the smugness and childish inanity oozes out of every Moffat script. It completely cripples his creativity. |
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Post by RobFilth on Sept 16, 2023 7:59:00 GMT
If you completely disconnect his era from the classic series and just view it as a regular mid 00s show does it still hold up? Not compared to Primeval it doesn't, no. |
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Post by Monster X on Sept 16, 2023 8:00:17 GMT
I hate to say it, but I find the Moffat era unwatchable for the most part. Call it nostalgia or whatever, but I can at least pick out a dozen or so stories from the RTD era and genuinely enjoy them if I disconnect it from TruWho. I just can't enjoy Moffat's era now. Y es, I get it, but TBH, I find it very hard to decide which is worse - the Davies or Moffat Era. I think I slightly prefer Moffat's timey-wimey, fairy-tale inspired stuff over Davies' council estates and kitchen sink melodramas, but only just - both are pretty awful and far removed from what I'd class as 'good television'. Chibnall's time was so bad, it isn't even worth mentioning here. |
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Post by rushy on Sept 17, 2023 19:54:24 GMT
Can practically imagine the vein pulsing on Burrunjor's temple  |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2023 22:02:28 GMT
"Was the RTD era good television?"
Some of it is. Bad Wolf/Parting of the Ways is great drama regardless of whether its proper Doctor Who or not. Same goes for the likes of Girl in the Fireplace, Doomsday, Human Nature, Blink and the Sound of Drums. I think that era will always be remembered fondly by the public.
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Post by iank on Sept 17, 2023 22:23:51 GMT
Bad Wolf and Doomsday are awful. The public like reality television. The public are stupid.  |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2023 23:34:14 GMT
Bad Wolf and Doomsday are awful. The public like reality television. The public are stupid. Both piss all over Moffat's finales. |
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Clayton Dickman
Certified Mob Rallying Heretic Crank
Ageing homo. (Still bald)
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Post by Clayton Dickman on Sept 17, 2023 23:44:43 GMT
It was good for the masses.
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Post by iank on Sept 18, 2023 0:03:51 GMT
Bad Wolf and Doomsday are awful. The public like reality television. The public are stupid. Both piss all over Moffat's finales. Big Bang and World Enough are vastly superior. |
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