Angel the series fans?

[burrunjor]

I'm on a rewatch of this great show now. 

I'd say that Angel, Buffy, Xena, True Who and The Young Ones are my top 5 shows.

In some ways Angel was better than Buffy, It never became a soap opera. Always put the focus on adventure and monsters, had a bit more shades of grey in its villains and heroes, explored the Demon world in a bit more detail, and I think maintained a consistent quality over its run better. 

Buffy was great for its first 4 seasons. The cracks start to show in season 5, which has its moments but is a bit weaker. Seasons 6 and 7 meanwhile are awful, compared to the previous seasons. With Angel, seasons 1-3 and 5 are brilliant. It's only 4 that is bad. 3 does get a bit ropey towards the end, but it's still enjoyable nonetheless. 

However at the same time Buffy was better than Angel in that it was more original, sensational, ground breaking, and a lot better horror series. It's ironic actually as Angel was promoted as being darker, but Buffy was far scarier. Der Kindestod, the Gentlemen, The Gnarl, Dark Willow, Turok Han, Kralik are all much scarier than anything on Angel. Hell even Angelus was far more terrifying on Buffy than on Angel, where he was too jokey and ineffective. 

[iank]

I've never been big on Angel. I quite like season 1 as a sort of weird detective show, though it does go downhill for a bit after losing Doyle. Seasons 2 and 3 mostly bore the crap out of me. Actually I would very much say that both those seasons are "soap opera" with Darla, Holtz, the baby and the endless Wolfram & Hart shenanigans that honestly didn't interest me at all. I actually tend to skip those seasons almost completely, I find them so dull.
Loved season 4, against popular opinion, precisely because it turned most of that stuff upside down and inside out, and is far more exciting, almost a supernatural 24 at times. And 5 is okay, though again I'm not a fan of Wolfram & Hart. I was so excited when the Beast slaughtered the bloody lot of them in season 4, and then rolled my eyes when they brought them back again. Yawn.
I have mixed feelings on the show as a whole. It has its moments, but it's nowhere near as good as Buffy and I prefer many other modern SF/Fantasy shows like Fringe and Person of Interest. I also think sometimes people claim Angel is better to try and be iconoclastic, like those weirdos who insist Enemy of the World was better than Web of Fear. In both cases they're wrong.

[Deleted]

I was actually an Angel fan befor I was a Buffy one. While holidaying in America I caught some episodes of season 1 and was hooked. When I got home I got all the seasons of Angel first. It was a bit odd to be watching it before Buffy given the background law but the show was strong enough to stand on its own.

While I agree that Buffy had a bigger rogues gallery of villains, all of whom were great, Angel’s always felt more personal. Wolfram & Heart is probably one of the best depictions of a nebulous corporate enemy in any work of fiction I’ve ever seen, and the fact they remain Angel’s true foe through out the series means a lot more bad blood developed between them then the singular season foes of Buffy. The other main villains often caused more harm to Angel on a regular basis, while Buffies foes require hard work and sacrifice to beat, Angel and co always seemed to lose something in every major victory, also it’s never over for them. While Buffy and co earn some respite from battle, the Angel team do not get such a thing no matter how hard they fight.

It also possesses my favourite one of monster in the whole franchise, the Thesulac demon.

Finally I always preferred the Angelbcaste to the Buffy one though that maybe because I saw them first.

[burrunjor]

Mar 14, 2022 0:36:59 GMT iank said:

I've never been big on Angel. I quite like season 1 as a sort of weird detective show, though it does go downhill for a bit after losing Doyle. Seasons 2 and 3 mostly bore the crap out of me. Actually I would very much say that both those seasons are "soap opera" with Darla, Holtz, the baby and the endless Wolfram & Hart shenanigans that honestly didn't interest me at all. I actually tend to skip those seasons almost completely, I find them so dull.
Loved season 4, against popular opinion, precisely because it turned most of that stuff upside down and inside out, and is far more exciting, almost a supernatural 24 at times. And 5 is okay, though again I'm not a fan of Wolfram & Hart. I was so excited when the Beast slaughtered the bloody lot of them in season 4, and then rolled my eyes when they brought them back again. Yawn.
I have mixed feelings on the show as a whole. It has its moments, but it's nowhere near as good as Buffy and I prefer many other modern SF/Fantasy shows like Fringe and Person of Interest. I also think sometimes people claim Angel is better to try and be iconoclastic, like those weirdos who insist Enemy of the World was better than Web of Fear. In both cases they're wrong.

Buffy was always more of a soap than Angel. 

Yes Angel focused on the characters relationship with Darla and Holtz, but that's not the same thing. Their relationships with Angel were still fantasy relationships. IE Darla and Angelus were vampires who slaughtered thousands of people across Europe and she was raised by an evil law firm to make him go evil. Holtz meanwhile wasn't a soap opera relationship at all? He was Angel's time travelling archenemy who wanted to make him pay and vanished into a hell dimension. Nothing every day or down to earth about that! (Though I've told a few people I hate to go to hell, they sadly haven't ever done it like Holtz did.)

Buffy however got dragged down into literal every day stuff. The Body for instance goes out of its way to not have any supernatural elements in it, then there is Buffy being jilted by Parker after a one night stand that went on for a few episodes, Xanders crush on her, Dawn becoming a kleptomaniac, even Xander leaving Anya at the altar, whilst there is a Demon involved it's more because of his commitment issues. 

Also even some of the supernatural relationships were meant to reflect real life problems. For instance Willow becoming an addict and Tara leaving her. Also Spike and Buffy's relationship was a cringe inducing attempt at showing the women like bad boys thing, which to be honest has I think dated the show somewhat. It looks like Stefan Molyneux wrote bits of season 5 when we are supposed to sympathise with poor Riley who visits vampire whore houses because Buffy likes bad boys LOL.

Really soap opera mixed with the supernatural was Buffy's thing and it's something that New Who took inspiration from. Most of the time it worked in Buffy, like the Angelus arc, or Marcie Ross, or even Der Kindestod all of which were metaphors for the hardships of life dressed up in a supernatural setting, or at the very least it wasn't too intrusive, like Parker who was only there in the background for a bit and then vanished. 

However I think from season 5 onwards thanks to the success of the Body, Joss Whedon got it in his head that was the most important part of the show and so it kind of takes over season 6 a bit too much. Season 7 then I think tries to course correct it and maybe goes too far in the other direction LOL and creates this huge, Lord of the Rings style epic story of the ultimate battle, that the shows budget can't quite do justice and that prevents the characters from doing anything but take part in this battle. 

It's a difficult balance to get right and for the most part I think Buffy did it better than pretty much any other show. IE Doom Patrol, The Flash, New Who, all let the soap opera elements take over in far worse, more intrusive ways than even Buffy season 6, but if we are comparing it to Angel, that is one way I think it's fair to say that the spin off succeeded. 

[burrunjor]

Mar 14, 2022 6:38:58 GMT @palaeoloxodon said:

I was actually an Angel fan befor I was a Buffy one. While holidaying in America I caught some episodes of season 1 and was hooked. When I got home I got all the seasons of Angel first. It was a bit odd to be watching it before Buffy given the background law but the show was strong enough to stand on its own.

While I agree that Buffy had a bigger rogues gallery of villains, all of whom were great, Angel’s always felt more personal. Wolfram & Heart is probably one of the best depictions of a nebulous corporate enemy in any work of fiction I’ve ever seen, and the fact they remain Angel’s true foe through out the series means a lot more bad blood developed between them then the singular season foes of Buffy. The other main villains often caused more harm to Angel on a regular basis, while Buffies foes require hard work and sacrifice to beat, Angel and co always seemed to lose something in every major victory, also it’s never over for them. While Buffy and co earn some respite from battle, the Angel team do not get such a thing no matter how hard they fight.

It also possesses my favourite one of monster in the whole franchise, the Thesulac demon.

Finally I always preferred the Angelbcaste to the Buffy one though that maybe because I saw them first.

The Thesulac Demon is amazing. Are You Now or Have You Ever Been is an all time classic, easily on a par with the best Buffy and True Who episodes. It scared me growing up (being the only Angel episode to do so, though I was also creeped out by the crazy alternate reality Angel in Birthday. Credit to Alexis Denisof for really selling that bit.) 

The idea of poor Judy being trapped in that room for her whole life and her dying just before she can go out was both horrifying and sad at the same time and made me scared of hotels as a young un LOL.

[burrunjor]

You know I have to say having just finished the end of series 3 on a rewatch, I admit the ending of that series is way too much soap opera after all LOL.

It's not terrible. There is some good stuff in it, but I think it gets too bogged down in Angel and his son which doesn't interest me. The thing I loved about Angel was that it was a vampire superhero. I want to see Angel go out there and fight badguys.

For me the one with the electric girl was the best Angel episode in a while because it was exactly that. Vampire vs Electric girl! What's not to love about that?

[burrunjor]

I've almost finished the show now. I got delayed due to real life things from the all important task of watching Angel LOL, but fortunately season 5 is every bit as excellent as I remember. 

What a season. Not since True Who with McCoy's last two seasons has a show bounced back to such an extent.

Spike and Angel are just wonderful together. So much history and chemistry and pettiness LOL. Fred is also at her absolute best this year. I think the difference between S5 Fred and the others is that in S3 they didn't really have a role for her, and worse everyone would gush about how wonderful she was. In s4 similarly she is just a generic sidekick to Angel. For instance her role of figuring out what happened with Jasmine really could have been taken by anyone. 

Here however we see how her Ducky style personality allows her to connect and help members of the group like Spike and Harmony that nobody else would, and her scientific genius comes in handier in this environment and her and Wesley's relationship whilst well done, doesn't take over the whole show either. 

Incidentally the user who keeps changing his name. (Not trying to be rude, but by the time I write this, you'll have probably changed again LOL.) I actually had a brief conversation with Thomas Holtz, the famous paleontologist and T-Rex expert the other day on FB and he is a fan of Angel too. Aside from praising him for his work, I also brought up that he shares a name with my favourite Angel villain and he got the reference LOL. 

[mott1]

I largely agree with Burun. Season 5 was a major upturn on the messy, bloated previous season 4, and a clever satire on the TV industry. James Marsters did add a lot of fun as always, even in the odd episode it did feel a bit forced. The Lindsay and Fred plots were excellent.

I do find season 1 is definitely the most Buffy-like. 2 contains some superb storylines such as when Angel succumbs to despair, and Wesley's darkening character arc was a masterstroke. Such a shame that the actors playing Doyle and Lorne (the kind of character only a Joss Whedon show could create) left us so early.

[Deleted]

Sadako is a big fan of Angel. Pornstar Angel Dark that is.

[iank]

I liked season 5 at the time (and it's still better than the tediousness of 2 and 3), but I just the find the contrived and unbelievable nature of the whole set-up of the season difficult to swallow. And, of course, it's nowhere near as good as 4.
One of my biggest problems with Angel as a whole is that I think Wolfram & Hart are a bit... shit. An evil law firm was a mildly amusing concept that could have served okay as a one-season arc. That it hangs over the whole show (and then never really goes anywhere anyway) is a massive turn-off for me. 

[mott1]

Mar 13, 2022 23:12:26 GMT burrunjor said:

I'm on a rewatch of this great show now. 

I'd say that Angel, Buffy, Xena, True Who and The Young Ones are my top 5 shows.

In some ways Angel was better than Buffy, It never became a soap opera. Always put the focus on adventure and monsters, had a bit more shades of grey in its villains and heroes, explored the Demon world in a bit more detail, and I think maintained a consistent quality over its run better. 

Buffy was great for its first 4 seasons. The cracks start to show in season 5, which has its moments but is a bit weaker. Seasons 6 and 7 meanwhile are awful, compared to the previous seasons. With Angel, seasons 1-3 and 5 are brilliant. It's only 4 that is bad. 3 does get a bit ropey towards the end, but it's still enjoyable nonetheless. 

However at the same time Buffy was better than Angel in that it was more original, sensational, ground breaking, and a lot better horror series. It's ironic actually as Angel was promoted as being darker, but Buffy was far scarier. Der Kindestod, the Gentlemen, The Gnarl, Dark Willow, Turok Han, Kralik are all much scarier than anything on Angel. Hell even Angelus was far more terrifying on Buffy than on Angel, where he was too jokey and ineffective. 

A good point about Angelus. Odd how he was far more psychotic and scary in Buffy than in Angel, ironically apart from the episode he was caged. One of the reasons s4 of Angel fell flat, for me.

[burrunjor]

Apr 18, 2022 6:25:30 GMT mott1 said:

Mar 13, 2022 23:12:26 GMT burrunjor said:

I'm on a rewatch of this great show now. 

I'd say that Angel, Buffy, Xena, True Who and The Young Ones are my top 5 shows.

In some ways Angel was better than Buffy, It never became a soap opera. Always put the focus on adventure and monsters, had a bit more shades of grey in its villains and heroes, explored the Demon world in a bit more detail, and I think maintained a consistent quality over its run better. 

Buffy was great for its first 4 seasons. The cracks start to show in season 5, which has its moments but is a bit weaker. Seasons 6 and 7 meanwhile are awful, compared to the previous seasons. With Angel, seasons 1-3 and 5 are brilliant. It's only 4 that is bad. 3 does get a bit ropey towards the end, but it's still enjoyable nonetheless. 

However at the same time Buffy was better than Angel in that it was more original, sensational, ground breaking, and a lot better horror series. It's ironic actually as Angel was promoted as being darker, but Buffy was far scarier. Der Kindestod, the Gentlemen, The Gnarl, Dark Willow, Turok Han, Kralik are all much scarier than anything on Angel. Hell even Angelus was far more terrifying on Buffy than on Angel, where he was too jokey and ineffective. 

A good point about Angelus. Odd how he was far more psychotic and scary in Buffy than in Angel, ironically apart from the episode he was caged. One of the reasons s4 of Angel fell flat, for me.

Have you ever seen Supernatural? (If not watch it it's a brilliant show.)

The same thing happens with Lucifer in that series. In his first season, 5, he is dark, powerful, mysterious and genuinely frightening. My fave Lucifer is actually Jared Padelicki's version when he is possessing Sam. He is quiet, reserved, yet full of rage and hatred. 

Sadly however in the later seasons they brought Lucifer back and just like Angelus they made him a clown. In both cases they thought just having him be sarcastic, and make stupid, crass jokes was a substitute for being scary and it was a real shame. 

Sometimes you shouldn't bring a villain back, because they have done all they really can, and you can't top it (which applied to both Angelus and Lucifer. Angelus couldn't kill a main character like Jenny meaning that he would never be as threatening, whilst Lucifer well I won't reveal, but let's just say that he is THE big cheese in season 5, whilst later series undermine him terribly) Also you can end up taking one part of their persona, like Lucifer and Angelus' sick sense of humour and make it their entire personality to the point where it seems like a caricature.

[burrunjor]

Well just finished Angel season 5 again yesterday. Still one of the best seasons of any genre show and the ending is easily one of the best of any series. (I'd say it's on a par with Blake's 7 in terms of just how perfect it is for the show.)

I've said this elsewhere I'm sure but I think that a lot of Buffy and Angel's reputation rests on the 5th series of Angel, in that it gave the franchise a great ending. Buffy seasons 1-5 and Angel series 1-3 are among the best genre tv ever produced and would always have had a huge following, and commanded respect from other genre writers. However both had gone through quite ropey and bad patches after that. Season 4 of Angel, and 6 and 7 of Buffy are both kind of weak and certainly less focused and fresh than what came before. 

Had it ended with either of them then it's reputation might have taken a bit of a dip. Endings are important after all. Game of Thrones ending completely trashed its legacy and popularity to the point where hardly anyone cares about it now. Dallas similarly whilst it wasn't the ending of the show, the cheap resolution to its biggest story arc of "it was all a dream." has sadly lived on in popular culture, more than the great things about the show. Xena also had a terrible 5th season, and an only okay 6th, with another controversial ending, and doesn't have quite as good a reputation as Buffy and Angel. Even the Prisoner, though managing to eventually overcome it and become well respected, still provoked a lot of controversy for what many thought was confused ending. (Personally though I'm not sure the Prisoner should have ever had an ending.) Merlin similarly has never lived down its controversial ending either. 

On the flip side however, Blake's 7 has enjoyed a consistently great reputation, with one of the most highly praised aspects of it being its sensational ending. Similarly classic who demonstrated both sides of this. For most people it ended with Trial due to how McCoy was mucked about and that did hurt its reputation for a while, but then when the McCoy era stories were released on video and built up an audience that helped restore its reputation and show people "DW was just as good at the end." 

With this in mind Angel season 5, can be seen as the McCoy era. 

In fact if I were to compare all of Buffy and Angel to True Who, it would go like this. 

Buffy season 1/ Hartnell and Troughton era. A bit more dated and cheesy in places, but still tremendous fun, full of energy and lays the foundations for what comes after, not just in this show, but so many more to come. 

Buffy seasons 2 and 3/ Pertwee and Hinchcliff era. The show at its absolute peak of creativity and popularity. Most fans will have episodes and stories from this era in their top ten. 

Buffy season 4 and Angel season 1/ The Williams era. Both were hugely popular when they aired, but sadly have a bit of a mixed reputation in the years since, and for the same reasons. Buffy season 4 is often looked on as being too silly and lightweight, as is the Williams era, and both are compared to the darker eras that came straight before. However at the same time plenty of fans LOVE them both for that very reason. (I personally have always loved season 4 of Buffy because it was lighter and funnier whilst Tom's sense of humour was obviously very popular with fans.) Also both despite their divisiveness have the two most popular stories from any era, Hush and City of Death. 

Buffy season 5 and Angel season 2/ The Davison era. Generally seen as an improvement over the silly Williams/season 4 eras by the more "serious" fans, as both are a lot darker, from Buffy's mom dying to Adric's death, to Angel locking the Lawyers up to be eaten alive and the villains are admittedly a bit more threatening like the 80s Cybermen and Glory. At the same time however both eras are when some argue the cracks start to appear for the same reasons. Both think that Joss Whedon and JNT started to listen to the fans too much. (In DW's case it was with things like bringing too many foes back, in Buffy's and Angels it was things like bringing Cordy and Angel together and Buffy and Spike together, even though none of them were a good match because fans loved them.) 

Buffy season 6 and Angel season 3/ Colin Bakers first season. Both are criticised for the same reason. Too dark, too depressing, IE Colin being too violent, Buffy and Spike's relationship being too toxic, Wesley betraying Angel and Connor sinking Angel to the ocean being too horrible etc. They do still have some fans who are very passionate in defending them and arguing that their darker tone suited the show and was brave, but still very controversial eras to say the least. 

Buffy season 7 and Angel season 4/ Trial of a Timelord. All three series jump off a cliff at this point LOL. To be fair it's more to do with the behind the scenes trauma than anything else. JNT I think had become too self indulgent at this point thanks to the global success of his in Davison's time, whilst at the same time he also had the Beeb trying to kill the show, Saward having a falling out with him and not being able to hold him back from things like Mel, Bob Holmes dying, etc. 

With Buffy meanwhile we have Joss Whedon becoming too self indulgent too. By all accounts this was when he started to become an absolute asshole to work with and on top of that working on three shows spread him too thin. Then there was Charisma's pregnancy which Joss handled like a prized dickhead, Sarah hating the direction the show went in and wanting to quit, etc. It all resulted in both shows abandoning arcs they spent ages building up, characters leaving abruptly, their histories being rewritten etc. 

Also Angel season 4 and Trial are both kind of crappy for the same reason in that an entire season is taken up with one, not very good, not very well done story arc, that if you don't like it (which most don't) the whole series is a write off. Both also take what were always supposed to be vague, behind the scenes concepts, the Time Lords and TPTB and put them at the front, and both also kill off a much loved, long running female character in a nasty, hateful way. 

Angel season 5/The McCoy era, both Joss and JNT got the wind taken out of their sails a bit, after Firefly's cancellation and Saward's interview and become less self indulgent. Both settle down with a clean slate and start doing really great work again. Though there are some misfires at first when they have to adjust to the new formula, like the Harmony episode and Paradise Towers, but once they hit their stride, the show is back to its best again. 

Sadly however as a result of the few bad years before, not as many people are watching and so they fail to revive interest, but years later when people go back they realise just how good it all was at the end and have a more positive outlook on the show as a whole, IE taking the good with the bad as it all ended up okay in the end. 

With this in mind the comics are kind of New Who. IE non canonical (Despite what people say.) Sequel that has some good stuff and can be okay to watch/read if you want more stories with those characters, but overall isn't a proper continuation in tone or story and plays out like bad fanfic at its worst. 

For instance I read the other day that the Angel comics have Xander and Dawn get off with each other, and Angel and Illyria have sex and briefly enter into a relationship! These honestly are New Who pairings of the Doctor and his 19 year old companion, or the Doctor and the Master. 

I guess Buffy/Angel were lucky in that their unfaithful sequel is easier to shake off as it was more niche, but the principle is the same.