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Post by burrunjor on Feb 27, 2024 22:11:55 GMT
Thanks man, I really appreciate that. I think where it and admittedly a lot of Big Finish Dalek stories were an influence was that the Big Finish stories seemed to make the Daleks more of a genuine intergalactic threat. To be honest the only story that does that in classic who is ironically Planet of the Daleks. For all people hate it, I think it's great the way the monsters are shown to be at war with multiple species and humanity apart from Jo don't appear. Most other Dalek stories show them invading earth, or humanity are still involved or are their primary enemies like Daleks Masterplan, Death to the Daleks. Genesis and the first story obviously don't feature humanity, but the monsters are confined to their home planet, and in Destiny, again it's still humanity that break free and capture Davros. Obviously I'm not saying that's always a bad thing. I love all those other Dalek stories. There's not a bad Dalek story in classic who, but still given they are the biggest threat in the universe, I think that they should be shown to conquer other worlds more often or at least be at war with humanity in the future when we're an intergalactic power, and honestly I think Big Finish have done that brilliantly and Enemy is a good example, even if it is still humans they are fighting LOL, you do get the impression of the Daleks as a galaxy wide threat in the story. I think Planet and Daleks Masterplan did that most effectively. In fact even in Day and Death they are quite clearly a power in their own right who exist only to subjugate or destroy all other species. Much as I like the 80s stories for different reasons, I maintain that Davros should not have been brought back. Also admittedly I do love Remembrance in particular, and the idea of two warring factions of Daleks is intriguing and has lots of potential. I was less keen on the earlier stories where the Daleks are more dependent on Davros, so I was happy when the 'proper' Daleks turned up to challenge him. I agree, in fact I think I had a conversation with Rushy about the 70s Dalek stories, where I argued that overall that decade is the one to depict them as an intergalactic threat most successfully. In the 60s just one story, Daleks Masterplan portrays them as a threat to other species beyond earth or Skaro (well I suppose Mission to the Unknown does too, but that's the same story basically.) The 80s meanwhile as you say not only has Davros steal the limelight, but also again has them war with humans. Even the Davies era despite making them more powerful than ever, still has all the stories take place on earth. I think Planet however is their most intergalactic story as it were, but yes I agree Death, Genesis, Destiny and even Day do a good job of establishing them as the big threat. Deaths shows them conquer a planet on screen, Day makes mention of their empire, shows another race as their servants, Genesis reveals that they will one day conquer the entire universe, and Destiny has a Dalek concentration camp made up of aliens from all over the universe. I also like how in the 70s they are portrayed as almost a force of nature in the universe itself. You can stop them invading one planet like earth, but there will always be other worlds like Spirodon under their rule, and they will always recover and indeed that's part of why the Doctor doesn't want to destroy them for good, because they've become so big you could disrupt the order of the universe itself by getting rid of them completely. That's what I wanted for my Daleks, and indeed I think that's what Big Finish have always wanted for their Daleks too, with Nick Briggs being a big 70s Dalek fanboy it would seem. Of course that's not to say the other decades don't have their strong points. The 60s is the most creative because they're new and everything with them is fresh. 80s is definitely darker, and shows you the gritty horror of the Daleks up close and personal. (Also I personally like the inclusion of Davros as I feel he and the Doctor have a fascinating relationship. Even more than he and the Master. It's certainly better developed.) Even the 00s I'll give RTD his credit, he made the Daleks more powerful than ever before, even if it was still directed mostly at earth. Davies' Daleks are less alien invaders, or even a force of nature that maintains the balance. They are more ancient Lovecraftian horrors that cannot be allowed to return or everything will be torn down, which I think worked for his era. However the 70s to me is still the most interesting and I think has a wider scope because it can show the Daleks invading other worlds more easily, which again is why I think Big Finish adopted it by and large. |
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Post by Ludders II on Feb 27, 2024 22:25:02 GMT
I'll touch on the Daleks under RTD later, but just wanted to make the point that for me 'Genesis of the Daleks' is almost a separate entity amongst all the Dalek stories, because it's an origin story. Therefore it doesn't matter if the Daleks aren't in it much because it's before their time. It's the beginning of their very existence, so I've no problem with Davros, as the creator, being the primary character in the story. It stands to reason.
I just think that it was a mistake to ressurect the character. He served his purpose in this story, and his extermination was the logical outcome and ultimate scene for the Daleks establishing their reason for existing.
It's still my favourite DW story of all time.
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Post by burrunjor on Feb 27, 2024 22:59:35 GMT
I'll touch on the Daleks under RTD later, but just wanted to make the point that for me 'Genesis of the Daleks' is almost a separate entity amongst all the Dalek stories, because it's an origin story. Therefore it doesn't matter if the Daleks aren't in it much because it's before their time. It's the beginning of their very existence, so I've no problem with Davros, as the creator, being the primary character in the story. It stands to reason. I just think that it was a mistake to ressurect the character. He served his purpose in this story, and his extermination was the logical outcome and ultimate scene for the Daleks establishing their reason for existing. It's still my favourite DW story of all time. Genesis did represent the perfect ending for Davros in some ways I admit. I loved the poetic justice of him realizing what a mistake it was to remove pity from them, and see that actually that emotion was a strength, even just from a practical point of view. "Those men are scientists they can help you!" It also is brilliant the way Davros thinks he will be remembered throughout the universe as the creator of the Daleks, but will ultimately be forgotten as they will not ever mention his name. No one (including the viewers up to that point) will even wonder who he was. The Daleks are so evil, all that matters is stopping them in the present. It's kind of like Lionel Luther in Smallville and Jerome in Gotham. I love those kinds of stories of the forgotten part of a story, where we see a villain who seems like such a big deal, and who helps shape another villain that he thinks will carry on his legacy, but who in all cases, Lex, Joker and the Daleks will completely overshadow him, to the point where no one will even know he exists. Furthermore Davros' return in Destiny is kind of..... crap. Not to earn the wrath of Iank and Maxil LOL, but Destiny though a good solid, enjoyable story, is definitely the weakest of the Davros saga. The explanation given for his return is very lazy, Davros' characterisation doesn't follow on from Genesis at all. He is back to being just a ranting maniac wanting to lead the Daleks, no mention of how he saw how evil they were and wanted to destroy them. Also it doesn't make sense that they would want him to programme their battle fleet, when he is generations behind them in terms of technology? Again the story isn't without merit in other ways and it does at least move the story on with the Movellans and so on, but yeah I think that put a lot of people off the idea of bringing Davros back. However the next three stories I think redeem the idea of bringing him back and get a lot out of the character that I ultimately wouldn't have sacrificed just to make the ending of Genesis more effective. That can happen a lot I think, where on the one hand something seems like the best ending, but then they do more and you're torn because you like the later versions, but obviously the ending isn't the same. Another great example of this is Evil Dead 2. It has one of the best, most disturbing endings of any horror movie. Ash the main hero battles demons in modern day, and at one point he sees a painting from the middle ages of a guy who allegedly destroyed the demons for good in the middle ages, and he sneers "he didn't do a good job" after which he comments that he feels like someone just walked over his grave. At the end of the story a spell is cast and Ash and the demons are thrown through a portal and we see they are back in the middle ages. Ash was actually the great hero who destroyed the demons he saw in the painting from the middle ages, and he DID destroy the demons as these were the Demons from the future thrown back into the past in a loop. Unfortunately this means Ash will be stuck in the middle ages for the rest of his life, and when he said someone walked over his grave, he was probably right! Even as the people cheer his name, he screams no as he realizes this means he's never getting home. It's tragic and really disturbed me when I saw it as a child, even more than the gore. Brilliant, bittersweet ending where we know the hero will defeat the monsters, but sadly his life is basically over. However there was another sequel, Army of Darkness made afterwards where Ash gets home, and then a tv series Ash Vs Evil Dead where we follow his adventures in the modern world. Obviously with this in mind, Evil Dead 2's ending no longer has the umph it did which is a real shame, but again ultimately I wouldn't want to sacrifice the later entries which are excellent just to keep that ending. It's ironically easier when the later versions go to shit LOL. For instance I'd happily lose everything in new who since the 50th. |
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Post by rushy on Feb 27, 2024 23:12:35 GMT
I don't think Evil Dead 2 ever meant to imply Ash would be trapped forever. In fact, the entire movie was only made because they didn't yet have the budget to create what would become Army of Darkness. They were always going to make that one. The ED2 cliffhanger is more about him realising there's so much more madness yet to come, after enduring what was already a climactic battle against the demon.
But hey, he did end up trapped in the post-apocalyptic future so...
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Post by burrunjor on Feb 27, 2024 23:20:46 GMT
I don't think Evil Dead 2 ever meant to imply Ash would be trapped forever. In fact, the entire movie was only made because they didn't yet have the budget to create what would become Army of Darkness. They were always going to make that one. The ED2 cliffhanger is more about him realising there's so much more madness yet to come, after enduring what was already a climactic battle against the demon. But hey, he did end up trapped in the post-apocalyptic future so... I don't know him saying someone walked over my grave, along with the eerie music, after he looks at what he doesn't know is a painting of himself seems to suggest that. Also the painting seems to show him having accepted his fate by that stage and embracing the people around him. I know they always wanted to do a middle ages movie, but to be fair the original ending to that could have been him being trapped there. Plus he must have already known there was more craziness to come when he saw the Deadite flying in, yet he just shot it. I think that's the point, he realizes when they start shouting his name "oh f*ck that was me, the weapon he was holding up was my chainsaw hand." Also finally let's be honest they must have known there was a possibility that they wouldn't get to make a third one and therefore that would have served as an effective ending. |
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Post by rushy on Feb 27, 2024 23:35:09 GMT
Ash's grave wouldn't be near the cabin if he died in the Middle Ages, though. It'd be near Castle Kandar in England.
I always interpreted that line as him just having a subconscious premonition that he was going to be the Chosen One, but not necessarily that he would die back then.
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Post by Ludders II on Feb 27, 2024 23:59:51 GMT
I'll touch on the Daleks under RTD later, but just wanted to make the point that for me 'Genesis of the Daleks' is almost a separate entity amongst all the Dalek stories, because it's an origin story. Therefore it doesn't matter if the Daleks aren't in it much because it's before their time. It's the beginning of their very existence, so I've no problem with Davros, as the creator, being the primary character in the story. It stands to reason. I just think that it was a mistake to ressurect the character. He served his purpose in this story, and his extermination was the logical outcome and ultimate scene for the Daleks establishing their reason for existing. It's still my favourite DW story of all time. Genesis did represent the perfect ending for Davros in some ways I admit. I loved the poetic justice of him realizing what a mistake it was to remove pity from them, and see that actually that emotion was a strength, even just from a practical point of view. "Those men are scientists they can help you!" It also is brilliant the way Davros thinks he will be remembered throughout the universe as the creator of the Daleks, but will ultimately be forgotten as they will not ever mention his name. No one (including the viewers up to that point) will even wonder who he was. The Daleks are so evil, all that matters is stopping them in the present. Furthermore Davros' return in Destiny is kind of..... crap. Not to earn the wrath of Iank and Maxil LOL, but Destiny though a good solid, enjoyable story, is definitely the weakest of the Davros saga. The explanation given for his return is very lazy, Davros' characterisation doesn't follow on from Genesis at all. He is back to being just a ranting maniac wanting to lead the Daleks, no mention of how he saw how evil they were and wanted to destroy them. Also it doesn't make sense that they would want him to programme their battle fleet, when he is generations behind them in terms of technology? Again the story isn't without merit in other ways and it does at least move the story on with the Movellans and so on, but yeah I think that put a lot of people off the idea of bringing Davros back. However the next three stories I think redeem the idea of bringing him back and get a lot out of the character that I ultimately wouldn't have sacrificed just to make the ending of Genesis more effective. I agree with your comments on the stories, and I do have some sympathy with your point of view on bringing him back, because I enjoy those 80's stories too, to varying degrees and different reasons. Destiny is probably the worst one, for a host of reasons narrativly which are too long winded to go into, but made worse by the fact that Gooderson's Davros is frankly as crap as his Dalek voices. It might've helped if it was Wisher or Molloy, but you'd still have the Daleks essentially coming back cap in hand, so to speak, to Davros, and the next couple of stories at least they are not the galatic power in their own right as we discussed earlier, and Davros becomes a puppeteer type figure to a certain extent. Having said that, I do enjoy the outcome in Remembrance. It's a great depiction of a Dalek civil war. And it makes sense that Davros would lead one of the factions. But as I say, we did lose the idea of the Daleks as a galactic force in their own right, as the were tied to Davros in all the post-Genesis stories. So yeah, there were some merits about bringing him back, but I feel a lot was sacrificed too. I think maybe if they'd bought him back in a different way, whereby the Daleks didn't have to be so needy to get him back. I never really bought into the idea that the Daleks were just a robotic force trapped in this logic battle with the Movellans. The Daleks weren't just robots, they were once humanoid mutants inside a battle machine. Yes, they had emotions programmed out by Davros, but not the xenopohic will to survive that they got from the mind-set of Davros who was literally mutated and mentally scarred by a 1000 year war, and everything that went with it. By the time he created the Daleks, Davros was maniacal, and that became part of the Daleks very being. I just never truly believed in the fact that the Daleks who had always been depicted as devious, clever and cunning just got boiled down to being trapped in a logic battle with a race of robots.They WOULD have found a way. I can buy into the idea of Davros being ressurected and leading an imperial Dalek army, altered to obey him, so long the 'real' Daleks were there as a separate entity, and their existence wasn't condemned to be stuck in that fight every time there was a Dalek story. And Davros would have to be ressurected for better reason than the bloody Movellans, who I always thought were crap anyway. Lol |
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Post by rushy on Feb 28, 2024 0:03:06 GMT
Destiny of the Daleks in general is a tacky piece of television that looks like it was made for two pence, with duct tape and trash bags. There's no hope of finding the Daleks intimidating when they're hobbling around in the sunlight with bright yellow bombs attached to them.
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Post by Ludders II on Feb 28, 2024 0:07:54 GMT
Destiny of the Daleks in general is a tacky piece of television that looks like it was made for two pence, with duct tape and trash bags. There's no hope of finding the Daleks intimidating when they're hobbling around in the sunlight with bright yellow bombs attached to them.  Nicely put. Lol |
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Post by iank on Feb 28, 2024 0:27:32 GMT
Complete bollocks, of course. Demonstrably false on every level, but never mind.
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Post by Ludders II on Feb 28, 2024 0:41:41 GMT
Complete bollocks, of course. Demonstrably false on every level, but never mind. I don't think Rushy's 'duct tape and trash bags' remark was meant to be taken literally. But yes you're right about the bombs. They were bright yellow and red.  |
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Post by rushy on Feb 28, 2024 0:55:21 GMT
Complete bollocks, of course. Demonstrably false on every level, but never mind. Well, it's in my nature to be generous. In reality, of course, it's one of the laziest productions the programme ever crapped out, and could have easily served as an excuse for cancellation if produced in any other era. The Movellans are mesmerisingly bad, like top 10 worst monsters level. Down there with the Moroks and the Fish People. Gooderson is alright, but everything around him sucks. His voice modulation sucks. The rubbish attempt at making Wisher's mask fit sucks. Him having to visibly wheel himself around sucks. Tom giving up halfway through sucks. Skaro being a regular quarry in sunlight still baffles me. How'd we go from the nightmare storms of the original serial and Genesis to this? From the frozen forest and the purple-sky war zone filled with Mutoes? I know the planet's meant to be recovering, but can't we have at least some semblance of atmosphere and intrigue on the Daleks' homeworld? And all that before I get into how pathetic the Daleks are made to look, and the lack of any tension. |
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Post by Ludders II on Feb 28, 2024 1:08:05 GMT
It does look cheap, but to be fair that's hardly unique in Classic Who. But yes, there's been a lot better productions too.
My main problems with Destiny is basically what I've outlined above about the Daleks coming back for Davros. And I think Gooderson was crap. And I think the Movellans were crap.The rest I can live with, although somewhat unenthusiastically.
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Post by rushy on Feb 28, 2024 1:43:12 GMT
Fair enough, I suppose it's just the expectation of something great when you have a Dalek story. At least The Chase's tatty production values are disguised by its comedy intent.
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Post by Cherry Pepsi Maxil on Feb 28, 2024 10:14:04 GMT
I agree with Ian to be honest. Fans single out Destiny for being cheap-looking when there are loads of stories either side of it that are equally as cheap that don't get the same criticism. It isn't a lazy production at all. The dynamic camerawork is particularly strong and the use of steady cam gives it a unique feel. I've always been surprised by how good a lot of the framing is probably because I'm consistently told that it's some sort of visual disaster by fans. I utterly adore the story.
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