Is Survival crap?

[billpatjontom]

Yes I agree. I do like Anthony Ainley's performance in this one but otherwise I find it a bit of a hard watch. And, considering it ended up being the final story to be transmitted of the "true" series, it  does feel a bit lacking to me. I much prefer Fenric too.

[iank]

Um, no...

[iank]

Sorry but that's just plain silly. TATR is garbage, mate!

[Monster X]

I really enjoy Survival (well, most of it, anyway) but I'm not happy with how it now seems to have been appropriated by NuWhovians as an example of how the Classic series was really just the same as the Nu stuff (or was at least evolving into something distinctly NuWho-ish).

"..there is also an idea floating about, that the old series and the new are somehow very different.  Well, lets deal with that one right now. Go and watch Survival, the very last show of the classic series, back to back with Rose, the very first show of the revival. Both beautifully written and directed, and both indisputably the same show. As it always has been.  As, I hope, it always will be..."
Steven Moffat 2013

There are other examples of this viewpoint, but I personally don't agree at all.  Survival is too weird, too surreal and too allegorical to be placed alongside boring old Rose and it's straightforward, everyday, soap-opera ordinariness. 

And while I don't dislike Time And The Rani, I much prefer Survival. 

[iank]

Totally agree. But as always it's the New Poo apologists/alumni completely missing the point.
Just as they seem to have missed the point of Doctor Who...

[burrunjor]

I do like Survival. It's the Master at his best, a sound idea and the final showdown between the Doctor and the Master is one of the most iconic images the Classic era ever produced. In fact I'd go as far as to say it is the iconic image of the McCoy era.

That said it's not quite the masterpiece that say Remembrance of the Daleks is. It suffers from the following things.

1/ The Cheetah people should have been wild and savage people with fangs like Midge and the Master, rather than cat people. I didn't think their make up was bad, but it just would have been more effective. When they ate people that would have been scarier, and also the lesbian subtext between Ace and Kara would have worked.

As it is Ace kind of looks like a furry. The bit where she stares at Kara in amazement before fleeing as if she is attracted to her, looks really dodgy when Kara is a cat LOL. Had Kara just been a beautiful, savage woman with fangs that would have been fine. I'm amazed Barlow doesn't love Survival with this in mind? Maybe because it's a lesbian furry?

2/ JNT should have let them keep the bit where they beat Midge to death in, as it would have again made Ace looking scared of them seem more legit.

3/ Ditch the Cat that looks f*cking awful.

Other than that though I think it holds up really well.

[burrunjor]

Oct 26, 2021 7:47:23 GMT Monster X said:

I really enjoy Survival (well, most of it, anyway) but I'm not happy with how it now seems to have been appropriated by NuWhovians as an example of how the Classic series was really just the same as the Nu stuff (or was at least evolving into something distinctly NuWho-ish).

"..there is also an idea floating about, that the old series and the new are somehow very different.  Well, lets deal with that one right now. Go and watch Survival, the very last show of the classic series, back to back with Rose, the very first show of the revival. Both beautifully written and directed, and both indisputably the same show. As it always has been.  As, I hope, it always will be..."
Steven Moffat 2013

There are other examples of this viewpoint, but I personally don't agree at all.  Survival is too weird, too surreal and too allegorical to be placed alongside boring old Rose and it's straightforward, everyday, soap-opera ordinariness. 

And while I don't dislike Time And The Rani, I much prefer Survival. 

The only area Survival gives way to New Who is that it began DW's weird obsession with humans and animals having sex. 

Like I said we have a lesbian subtext between Ace and the Cheetah woman. In New Who meanwhile we have the cat guy and the human woman having kids in Gridlock. The Bee guy and the woman having sex in Unicorn and the Wasp, Captain Jack flirting with an insect woman, Captain John Hart in Torchwood getting horny whilst looking at a poodle. (I'm not kidding!) Donna's husband wanting to run off with a giant spider woman and finally the Doctor himself having been an animal several times, which I guess means that if he had retained his fondness for human women during that time, well. (Even if not, that still means that River boinked a guy who was once a goat, a pig and a Shark.)

"Oooooooooooooooh I like it sweetie, lots of teeth." I can easily imagine River saying that when presented with Doctor Shark.

[Bernard Marx]

I rate Survival fairly highly, myself. There's an interminable aura of impending doom throughout, which coupled with the surreality and animalistic nature of the direction (with the camera often literally prowling in episode 1) makes for a fairly visceral story, with one of the finest scores composed for the era.

I concede that Fenric is a more apposite conclusion for the series in terms of its overall narrative and story-beats, but Survival still has an air of finality about it, primarily because of how apocalyptic yet minimalist it seems. The story's intensity and genuine amalgamation of urban drama with the fantastical distinguishes it from NuWho from the outset. The similarities between it and Rose end with the story being set amidst a council estate (and featuring a Jackie Tyler style caricature at the end)- beyond that, they have little in common, really.

[Brian MK.II]

It's the weakest of the Ace trilogy/ the three big stories of S26 and suffers from some problems namely Ace's dullard friends, worst offender being Mitch who turns annoying after he becomes feral rather than scary and the third part starts weakly with the Master's greatest plan ever since trying to nick Concorde's peanuts with starting a motorbike jousting gang to be down with the kids but as a whole it resolves the themes of the two previous entries well enough with Ace having dealt with her past (Gabriel Chase), present (her relationship with her mum and other insecurities) and now her future and McCoy is given a fair bit here (It's similar to the BTTF trilogy as whereas the first two were primarily Ace's/Marty's story, their third instalments focus more on their respective Doctors without sidelining him ala NuPooh) and his dynamic with Ainley is the best of the 80s Doctor's/Master as for the first time since  Castrovalva the Doctor seems to loathe him and not regard him an mild annoyance. The third part does pick up after Kara's death with the final showdown between the duo and the nightmarish visuals of the planet crumbling capped off with the beautifully melancholy ending of them walking off into the distance. it's a 7.5/10 for me.

Although, I must say, I was shocked to see that little bloke with the bowl cut trying to sell the Doctor cat food. Could've sworn I've seen him round. Ah well, just my imagination.

[rushy]

It has some issues, but I wouldn't want Classic Who to end any other way.

[Deleted]

I first watched survival a long time ago, I got the dvd posted to me by block buster, and I can honestly say I found it great. In fact it’s some of my most recalled thoughts of the classic era prior to my current full watching experience.

[Deleted]

Nah I think it's a good story Cheetah people were interesting love the scenes with Sylvester and Ainley's Master I will give it a solid 8.7 out of 10

[mott1]

Oct 26, 2021 10:35:27 GMT burrunjor said:

Oct 26, 2021 7:47:23 GMT Monster X said:

I really enjoy Survival (well, most of it, anyway) but I'm not happy with how it now seems to have been appropriated by NuWhovians as an example of how the Classic series was really just the same as the Nu stuff (or was at least evolving into something distinctly NuWho-ish).

"..there is also an idea floating about, that the old series and the new are somehow very different.  Well, lets deal with that one right now. Go and watch Survival, the very last show of the classic series, back to back with Rose, the very first show of the revival. Both beautifully written and directed, and both indisputably the same show. As it always has been.  As, I hope, it always will be..."
Steven Moffat 2013

There are other examples of this viewpoint, but I personally don't agree at all.  Survival is too weird, too surreal and too allegorical to be placed alongside boring old Rose and it's straightforward, everyday, soap-opera ordinariness. 

And while I don't dislike Time And The Rani, I much prefer Survival. 

The only area Survival gives way to New Who is that it began DW's weird obsession with humans and animals having sex. 

Like I said we have a lesbian subtext between Ace and the Cheetah woman. In New Who meanwhile we have the cat guy and the human woman having kids in Gridlock. The Bee guy and the woman having sex in Unicorn and the Wasp, Captain Jack flirting with an insect woman, Captain John Hart in Torchwood getting horny whilst looking at a poodle. (I'm not kidding!) Donna's husband wanting to run off with a giant spider woman and finally the Doctor himself having been an animal several times, which I guess means that if he had retained his fondness for human women during that time, well. (Even if not, that still means that River boinked a guy who was once a goat, a pig and a Shark.)

"Oooooooooooooooh I like it sweetie, lots of teeth." I can easily imagine River saying that when presented with Doctor Shark.

And also Laszlo in Dalek Of Manhattan. When 'pig men' were debated in Seinfeld it was meant as a joke. Nu Who turned them into romantic heroes!

As Rob said on here "he's a frigging pig, woman!"

[Deleted]

Survival is good. It's just the weakest of an amazing bunch.