Post by burrunjor on Oct 16, 2021 11:40:22 GMT
A proper thread for measured discussion about and any proper criticism of Islam.
This religion more than any other has become fuel for the ridiculousness of the culture wars. On the one hand we have the lefty idiots whose brains just shut down as soon as you mention any critique of Islam, simply because it is a religion practised by mostly brown people. They view it as being a victimised religion no matter what simply for that reason. (Our former moderator of ArcHive fell into this, once using the fact that canuterone was married to a gay Muslim man as proof he couldn't be doing anything wrong. Literally a case of "well minorities and people who like them can't be bad.")
To be fair though in this case I don't think this is just the pseudo, SJW left. Lot's of leftists I normally respect, who can recognise the culture wars bullshit for what it is, like Jimmy Dore, John Pilger, etc fall into this category too. (Though John Pilger did at least support Salmon Rushdie.)
At the same time however the right have also used bad feelings against Islam to justify their worst politics. You get guys like Bill Maher, Douglas Murray and the late Christopher Hitchens using Islam as an excuse for American imperialism and invading other countries. (Which is hilarious as America has had a history of propping up the very worst Islamic extremists and destroying SECULAR Muslim countries and leaders like Colonel Gaddaffi when it suits them. In my opinion the American government isn't ideological. It will jump into bed with any ideology as long as it suits their needs. They'd prop up a Nazi state if it suited them, it was just that the Islamic extremists were beyond their control.)
On top of that, just as the leftists can't see past the race of most Muslims, the last few years have led to a very unwelcome revival of race realism, a twisted form of pseudo science where it's argued that there is a difference in the IQ's between different races. (Black and brown people are always said to fall on the lowest end of the spectrum.)
A lot of scumbags who promote race realism will start with Islam. It's a slow, slippery path from "you hate all the Mussy's" to "well it's not just their ideology, but their race that makes them so barbaraic."
I actually followed a guy online's descent into being a full blown Nazi through his dislike of Islam. His name was Simon Harris. (Not to be confused with SAM Harris.) He started out doing videos criticising the worst aspects of Islam, and he was reasonably fair and open minded. He never tarred all Muslims at first. However as time went on you could see his mindset slowly changing. He discovered race realism part way through his critiques of Islam, thanks to a lot of the same critics of Islam promoting it, and gradually he came to see race realism as being an unfairly maligned political group by the same PC twats who were silencing all criticism of Islam, and eventually he became a full blown white nationalist. He did awful, creepy videos complaining about black and white people mixing, and even at one point said that the Apartheid regime was unfairly maligned! This all happened in the space of a few months!
Now clearly Simon Harris was just a weak, spineless, jelly brain who was easily influenced, but still I can see a lot of people like him being swayed to this awful ideology, and sadly the bad feelings there are towards Islam are often the way these people get swayed.
Meanwhile because everybody is focused on the race of Muslims, the ACTUAL issues with the religion are being overlooked, and I fear that they will lead to some kind of major clash in the UK soon.
The two big problems with Islam are.
1/ That it hasn't had a reformation, like other religions.
2/ That Muslims are on average more conservative, not because of their race, but their ideology which again hasn't had a reformation, and is the definitive word of god leaving less room for intepretation. This doesn't mean that all Muslims follow everything in the Quran, but on average even a lot of moderate Muslims who will reject the violent parts will still follow it more closely than other religions follow their holy books, and as a result even moderate Muslims tend to lean in a more conservative direction when it comes to things like gay rights and women's rights.
A recent poll showed over 50 percent of British Muslims think homosexuality should be criminalized compared to all other groups combined! That's not to say there isn't homophobia in other religious groups like Christianity, but clearly it isn't quite so widespread. (I might add the Guardian of all papers reprinted this poll.)
The conservative qualities of the Muslim community on these issues will lead it to clash with our community sooner or later. There was a recent video by Katie Hopkins that I think proved this. Now don't worry I am not using her as a source. Hopkins is a right wing crack pot who didn't want LGBT people to be taught about in sex ed lessons out of fear we would make children gay and warp them. That's the point though, her greatest allies in getting the LGBT aspects banned, were Muslims!
She even said on this issue we (as in the mad conservatives like her) and the Muslims can team up and give each side credibility. IE the normal conservative Muslim critics will go easy on them, whilst in Hopkins case, the left won't be as hard on the Muslims getting these lessons banned as they would a Christian nutcase.
Now these problems can be dealt with in a fair and measured way. We can push the Muslim community to reform itself, by NOT pandering to it on these issues, (sadly the schools did remove the LGBT part of the lessons due to the pressure from the Muslims) making it clear that whilst we respect people's right to believe what they want, tolerance of intolerance is not acceptable. We can also give more support and platforms to Muslim reformers and try and push the religion to integrate more, but always keep it about ideology.
Sadly however that is never going to happen as long as the culture war bullshit is going on. Leftists will shut down any reasonable criticism of Islam, whilst the race realists, will use ordinary people's frustration over criticism of Islam being silenced to make themselves seem legit, which will in turn lead to more racial tensions on all sides.
What do you guys think?
This religion more than any other has become fuel for the ridiculousness of the culture wars. On the one hand we have the lefty idiots whose brains just shut down as soon as you mention any critique of Islam, simply because it is a religion practised by mostly brown people. They view it as being a victimised religion no matter what simply for that reason. (Our former moderator of ArcHive fell into this, once using the fact that canuterone was married to a gay Muslim man as proof he couldn't be doing anything wrong. Literally a case of "well minorities and people who like them can't be bad.")
To be fair though in this case I don't think this is just the pseudo, SJW left. Lot's of leftists I normally respect, who can recognise the culture wars bullshit for what it is, like Jimmy Dore, John Pilger, etc fall into this category too. (Though John Pilger did at least support Salmon Rushdie.)
At the same time however the right have also used bad feelings against Islam to justify their worst politics. You get guys like Bill Maher, Douglas Murray and the late Christopher Hitchens using Islam as an excuse for American imperialism and invading other countries. (Which is hilarious as America has had a history of propping up the very worst Islamic extremists and destroying SECULAR Muslim countries and leaders like Colonel Gaddaffi when it suits them. In my opinion the American government isn't ideological. It will jump into bed with any ideology as long as it suits their needs. They'd prop up a Nazi state if it suited them, it was just that the Islamic extremists were beyond their control.)
On top of that, just as the leftists can't see past the race of most Muslims, the last few years have led to a very unwelcome revival of race realism, a twisted form of pseudo science where it's argued that there is a difference in the IQ's between different races. (Black and brown people are always said to fall on the lowest end of the spectrum.)
A lot of scumbags who promote race realism will start with Islam. It's a slow, slippery path from "you hate all the Mussy's" to "well it's not just their ideology, but their race that makes them so barbaraic."
I actually followed a guy online's descent into being a full blown Nazi through his dislike of Islam. His name was Simon Harris. (Not to be confused with SAM Harris.) He started out doing videos criticising the worst aspects of Islam, and he was reasonably fair and open minded. He never tarred all Muslims at first. However as time went on you could see his mindset slowly changing. He discovered race realism part way through his critiques of Islam, thanks to a lot of the same critics of Islam promoting it, and gradually he came to see race realism as being an unfairly maligned political group by the same PC twats who were silencing all criticism of Islam, and eventually he became a full blown white nationalist. He did awful, creepy videos complaining about black and white people mixing, and even at one point said that the Apartheid regime was unfairly maligned! This all happened in the space of a few months!
Now clearly Simon Harris was just a weak, spineless, jelly brain who was easily influenced, but still I can see a lot of people like him being swayed to this awful ideology, and sadly the bad feelings there are towards Islam are often the way these people get swayed.
Meanwhile because everybody is focused on the race of Muslims, the ACTUAL issues with the religion are being overlooked, and I fear that they will lead to some kind of major clash in the UK soon.
The two big problems with Islam are.
1/ That it hasn't had a reformation, like other religions.
2/ That Muslims are on average more conservative, not because of their race, but their ideology which again hasn't had a reformation, and is the definitive word of god leaving less room for intepretation. This doesn't mean that all Muslims follow everything in the Quran, but on average even a lot of moderate Muslims who will reject the violent parts will still follow it more closely than other religions follow their holy books, and as a result even moderate Muslims tend to lean in a more conservative direction when it comes to things like gay rights and women's rights.
A recent poll showed over 50 percent of British Muslims think homosexuality should be criminalized compared to all other groups combined! That's not to say there isn't homophobia in other religious groups like Christianity, but clearly it isn't quite so widespread. (I might add the Guardian of all papers reprinted this poll.)
The conservative qualities of the Muslim community on these issues will lead it to clash with our community sooner or later. There was a recent video by Katie Hopkins that I think proved this. Now don't worry I am not using her as a source. Hopkins is a right wing crack pot who didn't want LGBT people to be taught about in sex ed lessons out of fear we would make children gay and warp them. That's the point though, her greatest allies in getting the LGBT aspects banned, were Muslims!
She even said on this issue we (as in the mad conservatives like her) and the Muslims can team up and give each side credibility. IE the normal conservative Muslim critics will go easy on them, whilst in Hopkins case, the left won't be as hard on the Muslims getting these lessons banned as they would a Christian nutcase.
Now these problems can be dealt with in a fair and measured way. We can push the Muslim community to reform itself, by NOT pandering to it on these issues, (sadly the schools did remove the LGBT part of the lessons due to the pressure from the Muslims) making it clear that whilst we respect people's right to believe what they want, tolerance of intolerance is not acceptable. We can also give more support and platforms to Muslim reformers and try and push the religion to integrate more, but always keep it about ideology.
Sadly however that is never going to happen as long as the culture war bullshit is going on. Leftists will shut down any reasonable criticism of Islam, whilst the race realists, will use ordinary people's frustration over criticism of Islam being silenced to make themselves seem legit, which will in turn lead to more racial tensions on all sides.
What do you guys think?