Starting to prefer the Cybermen

[iank]

To be honest, I've always preferred the Cybermen, in classic of course.

[Deleted]

Well for one thing they remained the true antagonists of their own stories through the Classic Series, unlike the constant battle between the Daleks and Davros. Many of their stories are in reality far more horrifying then most Dalek stories, with people not just being killed but undergoing cyber conversion or the cybermen just doing purely cold blooded stuff crushing Lytton's hands. On a story note, aside from Day and Genesis, many 70's Dalek stories were not as good as they could have been or worse were simple reusing plots from the 60's. That has never happened to the Cybermen and as a further point the Cybermen have only one true dude story to their name in Revenge. For me one thing that has always made them intreasting is that they have no emotions, or they are heavily supressed, as a result the Cybermen's actions are driven my pure logic (well their logic) and theirs something truly terrifying about a being who will kill you not out of anger but just because it's just what the numbers add up to. Also perhaps most of all in the game of one-upmanship is the fact they have actually killed a long time companion of the Doctor.

[burrunjor]

They are both great antagonists, but the Daleks are unquestionably better.

1/ The Daleks have a higher percentage of classic stories. Granted this is more because writers always had to make sure they treated the Daleks with respect because Terry Nation would be pissed. The Daleks never got slaughtered by a Raston Warrior Robot, or duped by the Master, or beaten up by the Cryons. Still the fact is the Daleks have far better stories.

Classic stories for the Daleks

The Daleks
Mission to the Unknown
Daleks Master Plan
The Power of the Daleks
The Evil of the Daleks
Day of the Daleks
Genesis of the Daleks
Resurrection of the Daleks
Revelation of the Daleks
Remembrance of the Daleks.

Great Dalek stories

The Dalek Invasion of Earth
Death to the Daleks

Average or poor Dalek stories

The Chase (poor but still fun.)
Planet (average)
Destiny (average)

The Cybermen meanwhile

Classic stories

Tomb of the Cybermen
The Invasion
Earthshock

Great stories

Attack

Poor or average

The Tenth Planet (average)
The Moonbase (average)
Wheel in Space (poor)
Revenge (average )
Silver Nemesis (Poor)


The Five Doctors meanwhile is a classic, but I wouldn't include it among their best appearances as it's not a Cyberman story, and treats them appallingly. Even if you count New Who, the Daleks have a vastly better track record. Many of their stories are enjoyable like Dalek, Into the Dalek, the Manhattan two parter Asylum, and they never, EVER had as shit a story as Death in Heaven or The Timeless Children.

Again though the reason for this is because the Nation estate would stamp down on any attempt to undermine the Daleks. The lesson here is if you create a fantastic character, then make sure you own the rights. Not just because of the wealth LOL, but because you and your family will stop hacks from trashing them.

The guys who made the Cybermen could do nothing to stop Terrance Dicks from trashing them in the Five Doctors. (Worse Dicks did it because he hated Kit Pedler, calling him a whiny, talentless hack. I guess you could say that Karma got even with him LOL as Dicks naturally despised Missy, but couldn't do anything about it because he didn't own the rights to his villain The Master.) In New Who meanwhile when the writers want to undermine a classic villain to show how big the new threat is. (Like A Good Man Goes To War.) It will be the Cybermen, not the Daleks because again Nation's family would clamp down on them.

2/ There's more you can do with the Daleks

The Daleks history was more fleshed out. Even from the beginning, we knew far more about Skaro and how the Daleks came into being than the Cybermen. Also the Daleks have emotions, and they have an ideology, allowing a writer to put some new twists on their characters like Evil, that shows you Daleks with humanity, Power that shows you how they understand us from a strategic point of view, but not in terms of behaviour "why do human beings kill other human beings." Then there is their twisted relationship with their father Davros and the Dalek civil war. The Cybermen's lack of emotions, though effective, means there isn't really as much for a writer to latch onto. Also the fact that the Cybermen work best when they are a dying race, means that their stories tend to be a bit repetitive.

The Tenth Planet, The Moonbase, and The Wheel in Space are all the same story recycled. Say what you will about the first 4 Dalek stories, but they are all radically different. (Even though they were all by the same writer!)

Thanks to their ability to time travel, you can have Daleks in the past like Daleks Masterplan, in the future like the Dalek Invasion of Earth, on alien planets, in modern day, and you can have them as a vast empire that will seemingly never be crushed or as a race desperate for survival like Resurrection.

3/ Daleks have a better design and more iconic voice

The Cybermen never had a clear design. The Daleks meanwhile whilst being spruced up have looked the same more or less. Their design is almost a work of art. It's totally inhuman and alien, but not disgusting. It's pleasing. A little kid can love the look of it and want it as a toy, but at the same time it can be unsettling because there is nothing you can relate too. It can even be a wolf in sheeps clothing as it doesn't look menacing, but then turns out to be vicious.

The Daleks voices however also allow the voice actor to give a proper performance unlike the Cybermen, and give the monsters more screen presence.

4/ The Daleks have a better relationship with the Doctor.

As they are evil monsters, the Doctor genuinely HATES the Daleks. They in turn despise him and take a perverse pleasure in hurting and killing him. There are some great confrontations between them like in Power where the Doctor tries to goad a Dalek into shooting him, Hartnell spitefully telling the last Dalek that even if he could help it, he wouldn't, Jon Pertwee enjoying killing a Dalek and laughing at another being torn to bits. With the Cybermen, again their lack of emotions makes it hard to have a compelling dynamic.

5/ If we are talking about one up manship, then the Daleks have never been undermined like the Cybermen.

The Daleks have throughout all of old and new who. Conquered the earth, been one of only a handful of races to discover time travel, had a massive empire spanning thousands of years, reached a level of power where they destroyed all of creation (in Genesis which forces the time lords to go back and cheat by changing history.) They have also killed the Master, and if you count New Who, they have beaten the Cybermen, the Master, the Time Lords, the Cybermen, Sontarans, Silence, Weeping Angels all at the same time and threatened every universe.

The Cybermen meanwhile in the original never conquered the earth, where almost wiped out by a weapon called the Glitter gun, where mostly concerned with taking over the earth, lost to the Cryons, got slaughtered by ONE Raston Robot, humiliated by the Master, whilst in the revival dear god! Arses kicked by 4 Daleks, became the Masters bitch boys several times, lost to the Silence, hell one Cyberman was even killed by an Auton wielding a sword!

Now all of this is not to say that there aren't some areas where the Cybermen are better. The potential for visceral horror is greater with the Cybermen. Also as the Cybermen are not evil per say, just wanting to survive, then I think that they could be used in a wider range of stories.

I'm working on an adventure for my sequel series where the Cybermen have become accepted by the earth federation in the future. The Cybermen have found a way to peacefully co-exist, by creating clones to cyber convert so they don't need to conquer other planets to reproduce. The Cybermen are now among earth's most trusted allies having proved vital in wars (as their ability to cyber convert the enemy has allowed them to find out the enemies secrets,) whilst their own technology has helped build up humanity. The Doctor however still intervenes to try and save one of their clones and has to deal with the earth and the Cybermen working against him.

Sadly however I think on tv the Cybermen have been relegated to second rate foes.

[Deleted]

I feel like a bit of an idiot for trashing Attack so much because I actually really enjoy it now. Those sewer scenes are first rate Who. I love the dark lighting and the direction. Even the stuff on Telos I quite like now, even the Cryons. I wish Russell had survived though because he was a decent character.

[zarius]

The 80s Cybermen are what's best in life!

Though they never quite reached the same dizzying heights as peak Earthshock

[iank]

Say it again with me, Maxil:

"Ian was right."

[Deleted]

I still prefer the Cybermen to the Daleks. Unlike most fans I actually enjoy all the versions though I think the Moonbase/Tomb/Wheel ones are the creepiest. The 80s Cybermen are cool, I don't care what anyone says.

[Cherry Pepsi Maxil]

Apr 29, 2021 20:58:15 GMT iank said:

Say it again with me, Maxil:

"Ian was right."

You're only right when you share my opinions