RTD and Moffat wank over the Hinchcliffe era

[Cherry Pepsi Maxil]

At least they're not wanking over their own eras. 

www.radiotimes.com/tv/sci-fi/doctor-who-showrunners-celebrate-tom-baker-era-newsupdate/


Moffat did have this to say, though:

There’s an awareness about it all that means it simply doesn’t matter that the giant rat [in Talons] is a bit silly, because have you noticed Li H’sen Chang?!


"And it doesn’t matter that Li H’sen Chang’s a bit silly, because have you noticed how c**p his plan is?

"It just doesn’t matter, because the show is thoroughly enjoying riffing on those horror tropes, and you’re not meant to take things like giant rats and mummies and Frankenstein’s monster seriously – unless there’s something genuinely wrong with you.”


Don't take the serious stuff in serious stories in the most serious era seriously. Got it.  I don't like this "it's all just silly nonsense, really" attitude. It always seems to apply to the classic series but not NuWho.

[Ludders II]

Nov 7, 2024 16:16:38 GMT Cherry Pepsi Maxil said:

At least they're not wanking over their own eras. 

www.radiotimes.com/tv/sci-fi/doctor-who-showrunners-celebrate-tom-baker-era-newsupdate/


Moffat did have this to say, though:

There’s an awareness about it all that means it simply doesn’t matter that the giant rat [in Talons] is a bit silly, because have you noticed Li H’sen Chang?!


"And it doesn’t matter that Li H’sen Chang’s a bit silly, because have you noticed how c**p his plan is?

"It just doesn’t matter, because the show is thoroughly enjoying riffing on those horror tropes, and you’re not meant to take things like giant rats and mummies and Frankenstein’s monster seriously – unless there’s something genuinely wrong with you.”


Don't take the serious stuff in serious stories in the most serious era seriously. Got it.  I don't like this "it's all just silly nonsense, really" attitude. It always seems to apply to the classic series but not NuWho.

I have an awareness that Moffat is a stupid c*nt.
And I'm not being silly.

[Cherry Pepsi Maxil]

"You're not supposed to take the fascist killer race seriously. If you do, what the f*ck is wrong with you?"

[rushy]

Yes, the Hinchcliffe era enjoys riffing on the horror tropes, but that's like one tiny aspect of the production. The idea that it can only be enjoyed as a mockery is just sad to me. Russell and Steven are so painfully insecure here.

The reason we overlook the crap special effects isn't because we're just trying to enjoy the show as a parody, but because we know it isn't real, just like theatre.. a place neither of them probably dare to visit. 

[Ludders II]

These c*nts can gush all they like. Nobody is taking them seriously whilst they make a mockery of the original, (unless there's something wrong with them) whilst not seeing that they're ultimately making a mockery of themselves.

[ClockworkOcean]

What an insufferably smug pair of absolute c*nts those two are.

[iank]

I despise all of them now.

[burrunjor]

Nov 7, 2024 16:16:38 GMT Cherry Pepsi Maxil said:

At least they're not wanking over their own eras. 

www.radiotimes.com/tv/sci-fi/doctor-who-showrunners-celebrate-tom-baker-era-newsupdate/


Moffat did have this to say, though:

There’s an awareness about it all that means it simply doesn’t matter that the giant rat [in Talons] is a bit silly, because have you noticed Li H’sen Chang?!


"And it doesn’t matter that Li H’sen Chang’s a bit silly, because have you noticed how c**p his plan is?

"It just doesn’t matter, because the show is thoroughly enjoying riffing on those horror tropes, and you’re not meant to take things like giant rats and mummies and Frankenstein’s monster seriously – unless there’s something genuinely wrong with you.”


Don't take the serious stuff in serious stories in the most serious era seriously. Got it.  I don't like this "it's all just silly nonsense, really" attitude. It always seems to apply to the classic series but not NuWho.

I'm sorry Moff is going on about how crap Magnus Greel's plan is? To start with it's not. It makes perfect sense. He wanted to find a way to travel in time, and it worked technically but mutated him and so now he wants to try again and find a way to cure himself. What's lame about that? It's straight forward, but offers a lot of depth too, seeing the sacrifices he made for it to work, the people he killed, the state he's fallen into, and his delusional insistence that it was a success (that inspired a hilarious meme about the failure of new who ironically.) That bit where the Doctor delights in telling him his experiments were a failure and are viewed as a scientific dark age, with no one in the present even knowing that he made it back in time and Greel going crazy about that, are some of my favourite moments.

Meanwhile let's take a look at some of his villain plans. Sorry to say but as far as seasons go they were all shit. PS I can still enjoy the first three Matt seasons hugely for other reasons, but ironically the overlooking the silliness and gaping plot holes applies FAR more with Matt's time than with any Hinchcliff story. The reason for that isn't even because classic who was so much darker or anything. It's because a lot of Hinchcliff stories have straight forward plots, like Seeds of Doom. It's just alien pods arrive on earth. Zygons is just aliens invading, Pyramids of Mars is just creature locked up and Holmes and other writes build the stories up from there, letting them develop naturally from that simple premise. Moffat however tried to be too clever and came up with all these intricate plots filled with paradoxes that often tied his stories up in nonsensical plots.

Series 5, the bad guys plan, the Silence is to blow up the TARDIS to stop a war on a backwater planet with a population of about 10000. Unfortunately doing so destroys every universe. It's hilarious that the Silence in trying to save a small planet caused more devastation than the entire Time War. Also how does an obsolete type 40 TARDIS blowing up destroy every universe? How the f*ck did the universe survive the time war? The Silence as I've said before are like someone dropping an H-bomb on a city to stop two guys having a fight in a pub. 

Series 6, the bad guys plan is a bit more straight forward in wanting someone to kill the Doctor, but even then none of it makes sense. How do they know Amy and Rory boinked on the TARDIS, can they see inside it? Also how do these humans know about Time Lords? Why not use a ganger Amy to infiltrate and destroy the TARDIS when they had one inside the ship for months? Why bother even putting River inside the spacesuit when it shoots him automatically? Also what happened to Madame Kovarian anyway? Also how is his official death date in Lake Silencio in 2011, but also on Trenzalore? 

Series 7, how does the GI kill him as William Hartnell and then as Colin Baker and then as Jon Pertwee, and then as Tom Baker? It kills him as William Hartnell, all of the others are gone. If the others can live after Hartnell's dead, why can't Matt be okay? 

Series 8, well duh Missy's is the stupidest badguy plan. Creating an army of Cybermen to win her boyfriend back, and not having a failsafe in case he rejects them. Beaten by a no thanks, though even then why did she throw him out of a plane earlier and get angry enough to kill her lackey when he survived if her entire plan hinged on him? 

Series 9, Missy brings the Doctor and Clara together in the hopes that they'll love each other so much they'll destroy the universe. How does she even know that he'll like her? Also why do the time lords even torture the Doctor? Surely they know he'd help them stop a threat to the entire universe? They've always just asked him to help from War Games, (the entire Pertwee era was him being forced to help earth.) The Two Doctors, Colony in Space, Genesis of the Daleks, Brain of Morbius, Attack of the Cybermen etc. Why not just send him on another mission like that? Would Attack have gone better if they'd tortured Colin to madness for billions of years first? Okay Rassilon's a dick, but the others aren't, In fact they include his friends like the General and Ohilia, who also turned on Rassilon too?

Series 10, the closest Moff comes to just a straight forward plan with the Simm Master wanting to use the Cybermen, but even then it doesn't really make sense. Why does Simm, who knows how important fixed points are, and how you can't break them, want to change the entire history of the Cybermen? Surely that's a fixed point and the Master will be dooming himself by ripping the universe apart when he messes with it? 

Badguy plans were not his thing, hence why his best villains tended to just be animals like the Vashta Nerada or the Angels that wanted to feed, or even the are you my mummy zombies that just wanted to infect. 

[Bernard Marx]

Nov 7, 2024 16:16:38 GMT Cherry Pepsi Maxil said:

"It just doesn’t matter, because the show is thoroughly enjoying riffing on those horror tropes, and you’re not meant to take things like giant rats and mummies and Frankenstein’s monster seriously – unless there’s something genuinely wrong with you.”

“Alexa, please give me an example of ‘cultural self-projection’”.

[UncleDeadly]

Nov 7, 2024 16:16:38 GMT Cherry Pepsi Maxil said:

At least they're not wanking over their own eras. 

www.radiotimes.com/tv/sci-fi/doctor-who-showrunners-celebrate-tom-baker-era-newsupdate/


Moffat did have this to say, though:

There’s an awareness about it all that means it simply doesn’t matter that the giant rat [in Talons] is a bit silly, because have you noticed Li H’sen Chang?!


"And it doesn’t matter that Li H’sen Chang’s a bit silly, because have you noticed how c**p his plan is?

"It just doesn’t matter, because the show is thoroughly enjoying riffing on those horror tropes, and you’re not meant to take things like giant rats and mummies and Frankenstein’s monster seriously – unless there’s something genuinely wrong with you.”


Don't take the serious stuff in serious stories in the most serious era seriously. Got it.  I don't like this "it's all just silly nonsense, really" attitude. It always seems to apply to the classic series but not NuWho.

Ah yes, Davies and Moffat "praise"; "It's always been crap and it doesn't matter that it's crap because it knows it's crap and that's why our crap is crap and it doesn't matter that it's crap". Whilst being scrupulously certain not to include any actual detail that may disprove the statement. You'd fit in wonderfully over at Gallifrey Base you know that, Steven..?

A strange form of "wanking". Rather like cracking one off over the corpse of someone you've just murdered...

*By the way, Steven; a riff is a repeated phrase, not the same thing as improvisation. Though it admittedly works as an analogy when applied to your own writing.

[cyberhat]

Every time I hear Moffat talk, I think he's guided by some desperate need to be liked. So much so, he has the permanent gallery in his head he has to play too. One that's desperate to annihilate and ridicule any old Who that doesn't have the production values of a modern day James Cameron movie. RTD is different, he's just a lightweight, that for some reason, thinks that's worth celebrating.

[Cherry Pepsi Maxil]

I've never liked Moffat either as a writer or as a person. I actually prefer Russell, but he's also a numpty. I'd be more embarrassed being in their company than I would if I showed a non fan Time-Flight. The 90s interview Moffat did where he shat on the whole thing wasn't just him on a bad day. This new interview proves that.

[burrunjor]

Nov 10, 2024 0:33:28 GMT Cherry Pepsi Maxil said:

I've never liked Moffat either as a writer or as a person. I actually prefer Russell, but he's also a numpty. I'd be more embarrassed being in their company than I would if I showed a non fan Time-Flight. The 90s interview Moffat did where he shat on the whole thing wasn't just him on a bad day. This new interview proves that.

He can come over as charming sometimes and seems okay on insta. However he definitely does reek of insecurity when it comes to being a DW fan. He is someone who never got over the 90s and 00s and thinks classic who is the most dated and cringe inducing show because the snobs at the beeb think that. 

Funny thing is I actually think classic who is one of the least dated of all the classic genre shows. Its special effects are laughably dated in some instances, but as we've been over many times, overall classic who's effects are no worse than say Buffy or Angel and better than most of its contemporaries like Star Trek or Blake's 7. The Sontarans, the Zygons, the Silurians, the Draconians, the Ogrons, Morbius, Magnus Greel, the Krynoid, the Ice Warriors etc, how are they any worse than the demons in Buffy made 30, 40 years later? Also again are they worse than the Gorn or the pig man in Star Trek? Or the monsters in Supernatural that are just guys with black eyes? 

In every other way meanwhile classic who has aged better than a good chunk of other classic genre shows whose fans are nowhere near as insecure as Moffat, Gallifrey Base, Gallifrey Reddit or other wankers in official fandom are about classic who like that git Neil Perryman or his fanbase. I remember seeing one guy say in the comments of Perryman's blog say "oh I haven't dared show my family anything from the 20th century" Why? Not saying they'd automatically like it, but it's no more dated than your average drama?

Now this is not saying classic who is the best genre show. Such a thing doesn't exist. Also a show, or work can date and still be accessible in other ways, but still for all the obnoxious self loathing fanboys (who Moffat is the patron saint of) going on about how classic who is dated, honestly in the following ways it holds up brilliantly.

Gender wars: It's tragic that who of all shows would be consumed by this in the 21st century, but in actual fact classic who has no real issues with its female characters. Some are wimpy yes, but only those you'd expect to be (like a pampered Victorian teenage girl.) The majority are brave and dashing and there are just as many bumbling or cowardly men. (Again those who come from backgrounds where you'd expect them to be like Adric. In classic who, men and women who come from backgrounds where you'd expect them to be brave are, like Leela and the Brig.) Even JNT during his anti feminist phase, brought on by working with Janet Fielding, a nasty piece of work by all accounts, didn't ever say "women are weaker, Peri is typical of all women." 

Meanwhile look at how Star Trek TOS treats its female characters? Not only are they all just there as love interests of the male characters in contrast to Doctor Who where they were there as his friends and people he trusted and because they were scientists interested in exploring the universe. Yomen Janice is also almost raped by an evil Kirk and Spock hints she enjoyed it! Then there is Kirk threatening to spank an alien woman and commenting that Vulcan is the only planet where women are logical, a story about a monster that feeds on fear and exclusively attacks women because again according to Spock "they are more prone to panic and irrationality." Then there is that legendary last episode where Kirk is taken over by a woman LMAO. I don't think I need to say more about that one. 

Blake's 7 on the other hand has the infamous Ben Steed episodes, Lost in Space, though a comedy still reeks of the old fashioned American family attitude more than anything in DW, Red Dwarf, overall holds up, but it must be said it never really knew what to do with its female characters, writing both out after a season or two. (As opposed to classic who that had more female than male leads.) Supernatural meanwhile descended into some sick torture porn with its female characters, like having Meg be stripped and a guy run his knife over her vagina.

Even the female led shows could be as bad the other way towards men. The whole Warren/Anya double standard in Buffy is awful. Both are psychos who hate the opposite sex because of their bad experiences and kill them for it. Warren is rightfully viewed as a monster and dies, where as Anya is barring ONE episode that calls her out, presented as a cute, bubbly, lovable character we root for, and her past crimes are presented as sources of fun. I might add Warren killed TWO people, both of which were accidents, where as Anya killed millions of men over 1000 years. Then there is also Faith trying to rape Xander that is brushed off a lot more easily than Spike on Buffy (even by my kinky standards that's a bit too far.) Faith also rapes Riley by deception and Riley is blamed for it. To be fair though Buffy has some f*cked up things against women too, like the whole Riley/Buffy/Spike love triangle that looks like it was written by an MRA. Basically poor Riley is forced to deal with Buffy who likes bad boys, so he goes to a vampire whore house for suck jobs and we're meant to be on his side! 

Xena and Charmed also have some iffy things about their male characters if you look hard enough. Joxer, Xena's bumbling male sidekick gets smacked around a bit too much by the two female leads. Now I never minded this as honestly I thought it was hot. Gabrielle, Xena's sidekick who biffed him the most became one of my biggest pin ups, even though she's not really my type solely because of that LOL. (I do love her arms.) Also I don't think that Joxer's treatment was ever intended to be offensive or a statement about men. I think it's just because Ted Raimi who plays Joxer always gets, beaten up/tortured/killed horribly in funny ways in almost everything he is in. It's his trademark, but you can still say there's no way a female sidekick of a man would get treatment like Joxer. Charmed meanwhile has an episode where the three female leads use magic to make several men fall in love with them at clubs, which is just presented as a jokey episode and not you know, date rape.

Similarly look at modern shows like Gotham where Tabetha tortures Butch and he falls in love with her, or in Lucifer where Maze chains a guy to a bed against his will and shags him whilst torturing him. I mean once again in both cases I found those scenes unbelievably hot, but imagine these the other way around and all f*cking hell would break loose. 




Who says us guys don't have our own 50 Shades of Grey fantasies LOL. I'd be annoyed it was only 50 times. 



Imagine a male character who had wrapped a whip around a female characters neck, choked her until she passed out and then tortured her for hours, later seducing her like this? I mean again don't get me wrong my dick exploded watching this LOL and the whip scene and Tabetha is one of the sexiest characters in anything, and to be fair both are still degenerates and villains anyway, but still. 

Classic Who has NOTHING like any of this shit, with its male and female characters just being treated as people most of the time. At most there are a few teeny, tiny women's libbers moments sprinkled throughout like The Invasion, but even then those are minor scenes and not the focus. 

Politics: Again what a tragedy, given what the revival would later do. Doctor Who tackled some of the most important issues, from race hatred, to fascism, to genocide, to feminism, to apartheid, to Britain's own dodgy past, to the environment being poisoned and it did it all in a mostly subtle way, where it was presented as a metaphor and could still be enjoyed as a sci fi show. Most other genre shows didn't tackle as wide a range of issues, whilst Star Trek that tried failed miserably. Let That Be Your Last Battlefield and Balance of Terror, are the only good political stories Star Trek ever did. All other attempts to be political were embarrassing failures. The Nazi episode, the Coms and the Yans, the Abe Lincoln episode. even the Klingons are a dreadful metaphor for the USSR, the way the Yanks (the Federation) are presented as being so whiter than white. 

Also on top of that classic who is a lot darker than most sci fi shows too. 

In all honesty I fail to see how it has dated worse than any of these other shows all of which have dreadful effects and production values like Doctor Who does at times? (Is the Mayor snake any better than the Skarasen for instance?) It just goes to show you what propaganda can do.

[cyberhat]

The Doctor Who that's been shown now is dated in this era. Made by people who's heads are stuck in the millenium period. Utterly obsessed with the kind of social politics that's destroyed the left worldwide.

[burrunjor]

Nov 10, 2024 10:36:37 GMT cyberhat said:

The Doctor Who that's been shown now is dated in this era. Made by people who's heads are stuck in the millenium period.

100 percent agreed, but new who has always been more dated than Classic in all the ways I pointed out with those other genre shows. 

(I would have written this there, but that post was long enough LOL, so I'll do it here.)

New Who right the way through has FAR more dodgy gender crap, against men and women than classic who did. As far as women go, we have the female companions all only travelling with the Doctor because they want his dick, female characters trading sex for favors like Jackie Tyler, the Doctor slapping Clara on the arse, forcing himself on a lesbian and then using his sonic to mime an erection after looking at her hot arse, Rory looking up Karen Gillans skirt and it being a joke, comments about Rose's huge tits, guys looking up her arse in the air vent in the Satan Pit, female characters simping over the amazing Doctor and his fabulous hair, oh and our Jack the Lad character Owen on Torchwood, whose jack the lad behavior involves date raping women with alien drugs, forcing a kiss on a woman when they are attacked by a Cyberman on the grounds that I might as well as we are going to die (and his hard dick was also pressed up against her.) Then there's his famous Richard Richard style ever cum chat up line. 

Oh and on top of all this, the feminine versions of the Cybermen, the TARDIS, the Master and the Zygon are all either sexualized (Cyber boobs) or they want to shag the Doctor, or another male character. 

Did classic who ever come as close to treating its female characters this badly? I mean yeah Peri was captured and tortured a lot, and there were guys who perved over her, but at least those guys were made out to be creeps like Jobel. The Doctor didn't perve over her, and again male characters like Turlough and Adric got just as bad treatment in terms of being captured and tortured. 

Meanwhile male characters in new who are subject to bad double standards, like Rory being cucked in series 5, the Doctor being slapped by Clara repeatedly and it being presented as a feisty moment, Donna's entire backstory that's an insult to the Doctor as a strong character, and her later demeaning him because he is a man. 

Also in terms of politics, well it goes without saying that its attempts to do so have been worse than even Star Trek's worst efforts, even before the woke shit, with the Slitheen two parter being an obvious cringe inducing statement on the Iraq war that offers nothing new or interesting to say about it. 

Finally on top of this, has new who really improved classic who's production values that much? I mean over the piece? The Slitheen, Cassandra, the cat people, the faces being taken off in the wire, the Abzorbaloff, are these any better than the worst monsters of classic who? 

Meanwhile are the Angels, the Racnoss, the Carrionites etc that are well done monsters any better than Linx, the Ice Lords, the Exillons, the Ogrons etc? It's certainly not a huge jump either way?