Why did the new who writers not learn?

[burrunjor]

I know I make jokes about this, often using the Pigeons learn faster than you line from friends, but it is quite unique how New Who's writers really have not learned now after ten years of failure. I think it is unprecedented. 

Lot's of series have one season that smashes everything up in an effort to be different, or perhaps it's because of behind the scenes problems etc. Usually it's someone trying to do a big story arc that spans the entire season, and that is not only shit,  but it takes over the entire year. 

In Red Dwarf's case this is series 8, with the prison arc and the crew being back. 

Angel it is season 4, with Cordy going evil, the awful love triangle between her, Angel and his son. 

Xena it's that AWFUL twilight of the gods arc. 

Even Classic Who had this with Trial of a Time Lord. 

However in all 4 cases there was a course correction the following year. Now I'm not saying that all their problems were fixed, but still at least the creators acknowledged "yeah okay we f*cked up". Red Dwarf subsequently had just the 4 main Dwarfers back and made the stories lighter, Xena put the focus back on her and Gabrielle just having adventures, the McCoy era went back to more standalone, whilst weaving the story arc in the background. It also fixed the wimpy companions with Ace and had less Time Lords. Angel was lighter and funnier and brought in Spike and in doing so course corrected what a lot of people didn't like about him becoming a wimp. 

New Who meanwhile definitely had that moment with series 8. It lost the crowd, it smashed up a lot of the things people like about the show etc. I know most here aren't too keen on new who and that's fine, but objectively like I said this was when the show lost its way with the public. Now fair enough maybe since series 8 wasn't that big a flop in viewers because of the good will of the Matt Smith era, maybe they could have mistaken that for series 8 being popular despite the obvious backlash to Missy and Cyber Brig. Still when series 9 tanked there was no excuse. Those two seasons collectively are series 8 of Red Dwarf, series 4 of Angel etc.

It's a sign people didn't like clumsy politics, dicking with the lore, the ever increasingly stale new who formula etc, so what did they do? All of those things to a greater extent every single successive year. 

I know some people will say it's political and that is a part, but even then surely at some point they must think "hmmm maybe we should try a different approach to getting our politics across."

Even other woke shows like Picard changed direction. 

Furthermore most shows that don't change direction are axed after a year or so. New Who ahs kept this up for 10 years. How, how can its three producers in that time not have learned that this isn't working? It's quite unique. 

[rushy]

To be fair, the seasons themselves are quite varied in tone and approach. Series 8 tried to be grimdark. People complained. So series 9 was a lot goofier. But then you had the Clara drama and Hell Bent. People complained. So series 10 tried to harken back to Classic Who.

Chibs brought in his own style in series 11, but people found it boring so he pivoted to copying Russell. Then Flux was another experiment.

Now Russell's doing an almost pantomime take on the show, which is again very different.

So it's not as if they're not adapting, it's just that... well, whatever juice they had has been squeezed out.

[iank]

They're just shit, and refuse to admit the entire New Who formula is limiting and tired.






And Angel season 4 is still the best one by miles no matter how many times you say otherwise.

[Ludders II]

The only thing that could possibly do Doctor Who any good at this point is another Wilderness Years.
It either needs a rest for an absolute minimum of 10 years, or until the unholy trinity are shitting their pants in a nursing home.
Only then might it have a chance of survival. But the way the world of entertainment is going, chances are it will still be shit in decades to come.
It's you younger lot I feel sorry for, because I'm pushing 62 and to paraphrase the Cyber-Leader; I will be probably be unable to 'appreciate' it. 

[burrunjor]

Oct 19, 2024 6:16:46 GMT iank said:

They're just shit, and refuse to admit the entire New Who formula is limiting and tired.






And Angel season 4 is still the best one by miles no matter how many times you say otherwise.

Angel season 4 is absolute shit Iank. 

Creepy love triangle where Cordelia shags Angel and his son and he watches it from a distance LOL. Reminds me of that Married with Children joke when Al's father said to Peggy "if you like my son I'm twice as fun." 

Connor is truly insufferable as well. Even his own actor couldn't stand him by the end. 

Then there is also the story arc itself being a complete mess with Charisma's Jasmine and Gina's being completely different. Charisma's is a sexy, femme fatale, dominatrix who loves being evil and is needlessly sadistic, enjoys killing teenage girls and corrupting Connor as his Sugar Mommy, Gina Torres' is misguided, somewhat selfish, but genuinely well meaning and we're meant to think that maybe they did a bad thing in stopping her and she genuinely for all her faults loves humanity. 

Also the story can't make up if Cordy's possessed or not for most of it and seems to forget at certain times too.

I will say though out of the four examples I mentioned Angel season 4 is the least shit. 

Xena's is the worst as it has longer consequences, and makes you hate the ultimate woman, Xena LOL, something teenage me would have never believed. Then it is Red Dwarf, which isn't even a Red Dwarf season, and then Trial which is boring. Angel at least does have some good episodes and elements like Faith (oh god Faith) being back, the Beast slaughtering Wolfram and Hart, the demons from Jasmine's dimension, Gina Torres giving a great performance etc. 

Still regardless of my or anyone else's feelings it was a turkey that took the show in a new direction, people didn't like it and so they course corrected, resulting in what is generally regarded as the best season. 

Interview with Vincent Karthieser who played Connor.

They did the right thing by removing me. Then Spike came in the next year and he gave the show the shot in the arm it needed. That’s what they hired me for and I failed. So I didn’t blame that at all for wanting to try something new. I think it was a relief for me and for them.

WOW can you imagine this level of self reflection from anyone involved in New Who. RTD would be "f*ck off, f*ck off, f*ck off, you're a pathetic, straight, man baby who has never got in touch with his feelings, f*ck off, f*ck off, go suck your dick, I'm the greatest, the king of Doctor Who." 

[burrunjor]

Oct 19, 2024 0:05:48 GMT rushy said:

To be fair, the seasons themselves are quite varied in tone and approach. Series 8 tried to be grimdark. People complained. So series 9 was a lot goofier. But then you had the Clara drama and Hell Bent. People complained. So series 10 tried to harken back to Classic Who.

Chibs brought in his own style in series 11, but people found it boring so he pivoted to copying Russell. Then Flux was another experiment.

Now Russell's doing an almost pantomime take on the show, which is again very different.

So it's not as if they're not adapting, it's just that... well, whatever juice they had has been squeezed out.

Sorry that's nonsense. I fail to see any difference between the three Capaldi years. The idea 10 is more like Classic Who, what?

Yes it has the Mondasian Cybermen, but that was just fanservice which was there throughout the Capaldi era, like the 60s, 70s and special weapons Daleks in season 9, or Kate and UNIT, or Cybermen in front of St Pauls, or Osgood's clothes (I'd have preferred it if she didn't have any clothes, but oh well.) 

Series 8 has just as many silly episodes, like Moon egg, trees saving the world, a day in the life of Clara and her wacky pal, aka the Caretaker.

Meanwhile it doesn't even matter if a few things are different, they have been told again and again by a fairly large section of their audience since literally 2014 not to do the following things. 

Member berries, as they are often hollow and meaningless at best, and drive the GP away and make the show look like it has run out of ideas. 

Politics. Moffat was NOT a political writer, his politics were shallow (especially his gender politics,) they were not integrated into the story well and dated the show and come over as Rick with a silent P standing on his soap box. 

f*cking around with the time honoured traditions and foundations of Doctor Who and kicking its sacred cows, like classic Doctors, villains like the Master, the Doctors origins (always a murky subject even for good writers to meddle in.) Move on with new stories and characters but keep the Doctor consistent. 

Female Doctor, they were told again and again, don't f*ck with the character like that in numerous polls, with even their female viewers saying "please don't make him a she." 

Female companions who come from modern day, are made out to be insanely feisty and smug, but end up just simping over the Doctor and whose personal lives we have to wallow in at the expense of sci fi and adventure. 

Everybody meanwhile WAS happy at the Time Lords being back and looked forward to seeing where that arc would go. 

So what did they do? Kill off the Time Lords, and do ALL of those things every episode. Now again to be fair to them like I said season 8 did not badly due to the hype of a new Doctor and good will from Matt. Also there was a section of spineless classic era fans, still thinking they had to suck up to the Fitzroy Crowd to be keeeewwwwwwlll and SJWs praising it and telling Moff "Missy is the best Master evah." I can see how he would have thought it was a success with that in mind, but after series 9 absolutely tanked it was obvious that the other side telling him all of the above were right. So again naturally he did the same thing to a greater extent for S10 and all of his successors kept doing those things, despite being told again and again. 

It would be like if Doug Naylor had kept the entire resurrected crew for Back To Earth and every series after, and kept the crew in prison, if Angel had kept Connor and had him and Angel fight over another babe the following year or if JNT decided on another stupid story arc that took over every adventure and came to nothing after Trial for ten years! 

[rushy]

Capaldi's Doctor is very different in each of the three years, and so is the overall tone. With series 10, the cliffhangers and the new TARDIS crew were notable attempts at harkening back to the classic style. Even the early episodes like Smile follow that old school investigative format.