Post by burrunjor on Sept 29, 2024 13:07:29 GMT
Given they voted for Bo Jo the Clown, Pinochet fangirl Maggie Thatcher and Tony "I think one million dead in Iraq on balance was the right decision" Blair, the answer is yes. Also given that they terrorised lovable, cute, bubbly 80s dork Katie Waissel, and made a hero out of necro, child rapist Jimmy Savile, the answer is actually large sections of them at least are too stupid to live. (And they f*cking did make a hero out of SIR Jimmy, never let that be rewritten. He had a funeral akin to royalty because he was so beloved.)
Still when it comes to the issue of Doctor Who, well I think for once they actually have better instincts than the fans. The attitude, even here seems to be that Doctor Who lost its way when it started to pander to mainstream audiences, and was dumbed down as a result. There's always even in the days of classic who been that attitude of only the fans get DW, like that infamous open air interview with Chibbers, where the obnoxious head of the DW Appreciation Society says "if even we had trouble following it, how do you think a member of the public will."
Gallifrey Base meanwhile is filled with endless threads on the NOT WE, which reveal both a sneering contempt for them and a pathetic desire to be accepted by them.
Finally many see this as why the show died in the 80s, it became too much of a sci fi show for fans, and regular viewers couldn't gel with that (leaving aside all the other more important issues that caused its cancellation.)
In actual fact however I think that whenever Doctor Who pandered to its official fanbases it has lost its identity hilariously enough. It's not that "oh I could make it for the fans, and it would be true DW, but Joe public would turn away." Actually Joe Public seems to know what makes it work more than your average redditor/GB freak who has the seal of Rassilon tattoed on his/Xis arm. Let's look at the facts.
Eras that the GP took into their hearts.
William Hartnell
Troughton except for his last season.
Jon Pertwee
Tom Baker (at least Hinchcliff and Williams.)
Peter Davison
Colin's first season.
Eccelston
Tennant
Smith
Now I know a lot of you here will hold Eccelston and Ten Inch against them LOL, and the McCoy era was a genuinely good era that the public evidently didn't embrace, but still consider the following.
The McCoy era did get off to a ropey start, and it was shown opposite Corrie. Even then it still performed better than other shows in that slot, and the AI scores were extremely high for seasons 25 and 26, so had it been given more promotion and more support it could have been a success too. Meanwhile as for Eccelston and Tennant well leaving aside my more positive reassessment of them, a reason they were so popular was because there was virtually no other adventure tv at that time. It was a dead genre, so DW filled that void for people in the miserable, callous 00s.
Also like him or hate him, Tennant was a young dashing hero, that little girls could fancy and dorky boys found to be a more accessible role model. You can at least see the appeal of that, even if it isn't your idea of DW.
Meanwhile eras that the GP completely rejected, that weren't in bad time slots, had all the promotion in the world (including being shown in cinemas) that had all the hype in the world, fiddled viewers on I Player, but still struggled to be called a success with the public in every way are.
Peter Capaldi
Jodie Whittaker
David Tennant 2.0. or rather the hollowed out, broken, self loathing shell of David Tennant.
Ncuti Gatwa.
Meanwhile things the GP seems to want DW to be or feature based on the shows viewing figures, AI scores and what is remembered by the GP in association with the show are.
Daleks, who first won the publics heart and have been a ratings winner ever since.
The Cybermen, who the same applies for.
Horror and scary stories. From the Daleks in their first story, to the Yeti's in the underground, to Autons bursting out of shop windows, to the Doctor being drowned, to Blink, stories that terrify audiences have always made a big splash with the public. The GP tend to think of DW as a horror show as much as a sci fi one, hence why the term "hiding behind the sofa" caught on among the public in regards to the series. The Hinchcliff era which embodied the gothic horror aspect the most, is still the most popular era with the public consistently including the RTD era.
They also seem to enjoy alien invasion and stories set on alien planets just as much as seen with the Baker/Pertwee/Tennant and Hartnell eras all being juggernauts.
They also seem to regard it as a monster show, hence why even the historicals tended to bomb.
As for the Doctor, they are a bit more open minded than some fans like us, but generally speaking they are okay with the Doctor being a stern, serious, figure of authority with an edge to him like Pertwee, Eccelston and Hartnell, or a shameless over the top hilarious ham actor in the role as seen with Tom and Matt, or a young pretty boy like Tennant and Davison.
They also don't seem to mind continuity heavy episodes as long as they are done well. This is shown right the way through from the Daleks Masterplan, to the Invasion, to Spearhead from Space, to Earthshock, to Remembrance of the Daleks (that did very well in its time slot and AI scores) to even in new who, Journey's End was a continuity heavy story and did very well.
As seen with the success of Rose, Martha and Clara and Matt, they don't mind Doctor/Companion romances, but even then they don't have to have them as seen by the many other platonic companions that have been popular among the GP. Even in new who, series 4 was its most popular series and that featured a platonic Doctor/companion relationship.
Overall I'd say that's a pretty good idea of what DW is. I can live at least with there always having to be a monster and maybe a bit of romance. You work round the latter by having the companions get off with each other, which again the GP accepted with Amy and Rory.
Meanwhile things the GP actually dislike DW being.
Campy and silly, as seen with Colin's silly costume, season 24, the Jodie era and Ncuti with his Goblins and cosplaying aliens flopping badly. Whilst the GP are okay with there being some lighthearted comedy as seen with the success of Williams, it turning into outright parody puts people off. (This isn't just derived from the poor viewers of these eras, but the poor AI scores too.)
They don't like being lectured to as seen in the Capaldi and Jodie eras. Again a little bit of politics is fine as long as it is more of a metaphor. If it's an outright lecture and if it involves tedious current year politics, it drives people away in spades.
They did NOT embrace a female Doctor. Sure her first few episodes got big viewers out of the novelty, but she was not accepted by them, hence why they barely squeezed two and a half seasons out of her. Also Missy the other gender bending time lord coincided with a huge drop in the shows viewers.
Ironically they don't like the lore being messed with. People seem to forget retcons are bad for casual viewers because they send a message that nothing matters, that we are just making it up as we go along with no plan, and they also ironically revel in canon in the worst way in order to rewrite it. Every single controversial bit of lore being rewritten has resulted in a ratings drop in new who, such as the following.
Death in Heaven, Cyber brig and time lord gender changing is possible, BIG drop for series 9. The next year. Hellbent, rewriting the Doctors origin, the hybrid crap etc, BIG drop for series 10. Then the female Doctor, okay there is a bump for the novelty, but then viewers are down again until we get to another big change, the biggest via the Timeless Children. Result? CATASTROPHIC drop the next year LOL. The show eventually reaches 2 million, and has ultimately barring a very slight bump for Tennant never recovered, and even then they stupidly used Tennant's return to introduce another big pointless retcon via the bi regeneration, which led to another drop for Ncuti's first proper series.
Meanwhile ALL of these things have been embraced by the fans, of course by fans I mean the official fandom. Gallifrey Reddit, GB, DW magazine, Doctor Who youtubers. They love that DW is uber political, they attacked anyone who didn't want a female Doctor as a sexist incel, they love how "impossibly silly and wonderful" the show is and embrace literal ponto villains like the Maestro and Missy as fan favourites, they push the insane notion that DW has no canon and that it should constantly smash up its past to be reborn etc.
Yet I still see people acting as though if the show made a return to classic who's style, but updated you'd lose your average Joe? Newsflash you lost him ten f*cking years ago, because you systematically removed every trace of classic who from the series and the current crop of fandom the show is pandering to, the LGBT activists, the uber political aging millennials, the fans who like to sneer at anyone that takes DW seriously, because it should just be a silly panto show, THEY are driving it into the ground.
What people said happened in the 80s with Ian Levine types is happening FAR more with the current generation of pronoun obsessed fans, but sadly I doubt few people, barring conservative youtubers will have the balls to say that. Point is though as soon as it goes back to what the public wants, that's when you might ironically start seeing proper DW again.
Still when it comes to the issue of Doctor Who, well I think for once they actually have better instincts than the fans. The attitude, even here seems to be that Doctor Who lost its way when it started to pander to mainstream audiences, and was dumbed down as a result. There's always even in the days of classic who been that attitude of only the fans get DW, like that infamous open air interview with Chibbers, where the obnoxious head of the DW Appreciation Society says "if even we had trouble following it, how do you think a member of the public will."
Gallifrey Base meanwhile is filled with endless threads on the NOT WE, which reveal both a sneering contempt for them and a pathetic desire to be accepted by them.
Finally many see this as why the show died in the 80s, it became too much of a sci fi show for fans, and regular viewers couldn't gel with that (leaving aside all the other more important issues that caused its cancellation.)
In actual fact however I think that whenever Doctor Who pandered to its official fanbases it has lost its identity hilariously enough. It's not that "oh I could make it for the fans, and it would be true DW, but Joe public would turn away." Actually Joe Public seems to know what makes it work more than your average redditor/GB freak who has the seal of Rassilon tattoed on his/Xis arm. Let's look at the facts.
Eras that the GP took into their hearts.
William Hartnell
Troughton except for his last season.
Jon Pertwee
Tom Baker (at least Hinchcliff and Williams.)
Peter Davison
Colin's first season.
Eccelston
Tennant
Smith
Now I know a lot of you here will hold Eccelston and Ten Inch against them LOL, and the McCoy era was a genuinely good era that the public evidently didn't embrace, but still consider the following.
The McCoy era did get off to a ropey start, and it was shown opposite Corrie. Even then it still performed better than other shows in that slot, and the AI scores were extremely high for seasons 25 and 26, so had it been given more promotion and more support it could have been a success too. Meanwhile as for Eccelston and Tennant well leaving aside my more positive reassessment of them, a reason they were so popular was because there was virtually no other adventure tv at that time. It was a dead genre, so DW filled that void for people in the miserable, callous 00s.
Also like him or hate him, Tennant was a young dashing hero, that little girls could fancy and dorky boys found to be a more accessible role model. You can at least see the appeal of that, even if it isn't your idea of DW.
Meanwhile eras that the GP completely rejected, that weren't in bad time slots, had all the promotion in the world (including being shown in cinemas) that had all the hype in the world, fiddled viewers on I Player, but still struggled to be called a success with the public in every way are.
Peter Capaldi
Jodie Whittaker
David Tennant 2.0. or rather the hollowed out, broken, self loathing shell of David Tennant.
Ncuti Gatwa.
Meanwhile things the GP seems to want DW to be or feature based on the shows viewing figures, AI scores and what is remembered by the GP in association with the show are.
Daleks, who first won the publics heart and have been a ratings winner ever since.
The Cybermen, who the same applies for.
Horror and scary stories. From the Daleks in their first story, to the Yeti's in the underground, to Autons bursting out of shop windows, to the Doctor being drowned, to Blink, stories that terrify audiences have always made a big splash with the public. The GP tend to think of DW as a horror show as much as a sci fi one, hence why the term "hiding behind the sofa" caught on among the public in regards to the series. The Hinchcliff era which embodied the gothic horror aspect the most, is still the most popular era with the public consistently including the RTD era.
They also seem to enjoy alien invasion and stories set on alien planets just as much as seen with the Baker/Pertwee/Tennant and Hartnell eras all being juggernauts.
They also seem to regard it as a monster show, hence why even the historicals tended to bomb.
As for the Doctor, they are a bit more open minded than some fans like us, but generally speaking they are okay with the Doctor being a stern, serious, figure of authority with an edge to him like Pertwee, Eccelston and Hartnell, or a shameless over the top hilarious ham actor in the role as seen with Tom and Matt, or a young pretty boy like Tennant and Davison.
They also don't seem to mind continuity heavy episodes as long as they are done well. This is shown right the way through from the Daleks Masterplan, to the Invasion, to Spearhead from Space, to Earthshock, to Remembrance of the Daleks (that did very well in its time slot and AI scores) to even in new who, Journey's End was a continuity heavy story and did very well.
As seen with the success of Rose, Martha and Clara and Matt, they don't mind Doctor/Companion romances, but even then they don't have to have them as seen by the many other platonic companions that have been popular among the GP. Even in new who, series 4 was its most popular series and that featured a platonic Doctor/companion relationship.
Overall I'd say that's a pretty good idea of what DW is. I can live at least with there always having to be a monster and maybe a bit of romance. You work round the latter by having the companions get off with each other, which again the GP accepted with Amy and Rory.
Meanwhile things the GP actually dislike DW being.
Campy and silly, as seen with Colin's silly costume, season 24, the Jodie era and Ncuti with his Goblins and cosplaying aliens flopping badly. Whilst the GP are okay with there being some lighthearted comedy as seen with the success of Williams, it turning into outright parody puts people off. (This isn't just derived from the poor viewers of these eras, but the poor AI scores too.)
They don't like being lectured to as seen in the Capaldi and Jodie eras. Again a little bit of politics is fine as long as it is more of a metaphor. If it's an outright lecture and if it involves tedious current year politics, it drives people away in spades.
They did NOT embrace a female Doctor. Sure her first few episodes got big viewers out of the novelty, but she was not accepted by them, hence why they barely squeezed two and a half seasons out of her. Also Missy the other gender bending time lord coincided with a huge drop in the shows viewers.
Ironically they don't like the lore being messed with. People seem to forget retcons are bad for casual viewers because they send a message that nothing matters, that we are just making it up as we go along with no plan, and they also ironically revel in canon in the worst way in order to rewrite it. Every single controversial bit of lore being rewritten has resulted in a ratings drop in new who, such as the following.
Death in Heaven, Cyber brig and time lord gender changing is possible, BIG drop for series 9. The next year. Hellbent, rewriting the Doctors origin, the hybrid crap etc, BIG drop for series 10. Then the female Doctor, okay there is a bump for the novelty, but then viewers are down again until we get to another big change, the biggest via the Timeless Children. Result? CATASTROPHIC drop the next year LOL. The show eventually reaches 2 million, and has ultimately barring a very slight bump for Tennant never recovered, and even then they stupidly used Tennant's return to introduce another big pointless retcon via the bi regeneration, which led to another drop for Ncuti's first proper series.
Meanwhile ALL of these things have been embraced by the fans, of course by fans I mean the official fandom. Gallifrey Reddit, GB, DW magazine, Doctor Who youtubers. They love that DW is uber political, they attacked anyone who didn't want a female Doctor as a sexist incel, they love how "impossibly silly and wonderful" the show is and embrace literal ponto villains like the Maestro and Missy as fan favourites, they push the insane notion that DW has no canon and that it should constantly smash up its past to be reborn etc.
Yet I still see people acting as though if the show made a return to classic who's style, but updated you'd lose your average Joe? Newsflash you lost him ten f*cking years ago, because you systematically removed every trace of classic who from the series and the current crop of fandom the show is pandering to, the LGBT activists, the uber political aging millennials, the fans who like to sneer at anyone that takes DW seriously, because it should just be a silly panto show, THEY are driving it into the ground.
What people said happened in the 80s with Ian Levine types is happening FAR more with the current generation of pronoun obsessed fans, but sadly I doubt few people, barring conservative youtubers will have the balls to say that. Point is though as soon as it goes back to what the public wants, that's when you might ironically start seeing proper DW again.
