RTD vs Moffat : Cybermen stories

[Cherry Pepsi Maxil]

Which era had the better outings for the silver giants?

The RTD era had two proper ones and one that should have been theirs but was gatecrashed by the Daleks. The Moffat era delivered a trilogy of awful Cybermen stories starting with the horrendous Closing Time (that ain't Colchester!) and ending with Moffat's ultimate turd Death in Heaven. It did get better slightly with World Enough and Time/The Doctor Falls, but it's hardly one of the Cybermen's most entertaining adventures. I'm going for the RTD era simply because Rise is a decent enough origin story with nice bits of espionage and good Graeme Harper direction. I also think The Next Doctor is a Christmas classic. Russell may be a moron, but putting Cybermen in a Christmas episode set in Victorian London is absolute genius. I wish I had thought of it. Army of Ghosts/Doomsday is a fine double but the Cybermen's epic return in the first part is ruined in the second by Russell's constant wanking over the Daleks. 

[RobFilth]

I went with Fatheads era for all the reasons Pepsi outlined, the only time Moffat "got" the Cybermen was just before he buggered off, and I think most of that was part of Capaldis insistence.

[Ludders II]

I'd have go with Davies on the grounds that Rise of the Cybermen wasn't the worst ever.

[iank]

The Capaldi one was better than anything in the RTD era, esp part 1.

[zarius]

RTD, at least it had the decency to sidestep the 'originals' and go for an alternate history approach, it was like he was respecting how they were pretty much entirely finished off in Silver Nemesis

[iank]

That's one interpretation. I can think of another...

[rushy]

There is that interesting scene in Dalek, where Eccleston sees the Cyberman's head in a museum and acts like they're ancient history

[burrunjor]

Sept 19, 2024 11:47:02 GMT iank said:

That's one interpretation. I can think of another...

The only interpretation is this. RTD actually doesn't like classic who. He likes the ideas and iconography of DW and wanted to write about them, but not actually carry on classic who, therefore the villains are all written like remake or rebooted versions of themselves that follow the same basic idea and themes, but NOT the same history, or characterisation, like Jack Nicholson's Joker, Willem Defoe's Green Goblin, Christopher Lee's Dracula all do when compared to the source material.   

Daleks are now his archenemies because of the Time War, meaning you don't have to have watched any of the classic era or know about their history with the Doctor in that. Even the destruction of their home planet is now the Time War. However they still follow the same theme of being xenophobic monsters.

Cybermen come from a different universe, and convert people via brain swaps and still follow the same theme of coming from a planet like earth and being a dark parallel to our own development and technology consuming the soul. 

The Master was driven mad by drums in his head, had a genuine friendship with the Doctor and is more unhinged than his classic era counterpart, but again follows the same themes of being the Doctors nemesis, his dark twin etc. 

Hell even the Doctor himself, is more romantic, emotional, fragile, tortured etc, but follows the same theme of an alien in a blue box travelling through time, having mysterious origins etc.

Now I'm not judging RTD for doing that. In actual fact taken as adaptations/rebooted versions, they all do represent quite cool and interesting new takes on these characters. I'm not even saying RTD isn't a genuine fan. I was a spidey fan for years in much the same way he was a DW fan. I didn't have access to the comics growing up, even the animated series I didn't see all of when I was a child, but I still LOVED Spider-Man, because I'd seen some of the animated series that I loved and I had books that told me about the history of the wall crawler that I read avidly, giving me knowledge and allowing me to pick out favourite characters like the symbiotes. 

Of course I later did track down the original stories and expose myself to lots of Spidey media, but that wasn't until I was in my late teens, yet I still consider Spider-Man a childhood favourite. 

So yes I think that's how RTD is a fan of DW. He watched some of it as a child, liked it, but probably learned the basics through books, docus etc, enough to pick out his favourite characters and concepts like I did with the symbiotes. Unlike me however he never bothered to track down the source material, having contempt for it as dated. 

Again nothing wrong with any of that, except for the fact that he tried to link these obvious remake/rebooted versions to the originals canon, rather than coming clean and saying "this is a reboot and my version, feel free to do your own remake, sequel to the original." He did that only to cash in on the originals audience and it worked. 

He got away with it because had been so long for the GP they didn't remember the finer details to know it wasn't faithful, but would have been put off if it had been called a reboot (due to a string of bad 60s remakes at that time, Lost in Space, Avengers, etc.) Meanwhile fans were so desperate for it to be mainstream and keeeeewwwwl again they went along with it, and some were seduced by the odd member berry like Sarah Jane. 

To those who did notice and complained RTD pushed the all about change lie and made out the show never had a core identity, which sadly laid the groundwork for the revival as a series in its own right to rip itself apart. Ironically in the long run he'd have been better for his own work to make it a reboot. 

[rushy]

RTD keeping the relationship between New Who and Classic Who ambiguous (until series 4) was one of his smarter decisions. It allowed him to have his cake and eat it too.

And to answer the original question, I think the Cybermen were better done in RTD's era. They had some kind of an arc. Moff never really knew what to do with them until he aped Tenth Planet to make Capaldi happy.

[burrunjor]

Sept 18, 2024 22:05:02 GMT Cherry Pepsi Maxil said:

Which era had the better outings for the silver giants?

The RTD era had two proper ones and one that should have been theirs but was gatecrashed by the Daleks. The Moffat era delivered a trilogy of awful Cybermen stories starting with the horrendous Closing Time (that ain't Colchester!) and ending with Moffat's ultimate turd Death in Heaven. It did get better slightly with World Enough and Time/The Doctor Falls, but it's hardly one of the Cybermen's most entertaining adventures. I'm going for the RTD era simply because Rise is a decent enough origin story with nice bits of espionage and good Graeme Harper direction. I also think The Next Doctor is a Christmas classic. Russell may be a moron, but putting Cybermen in a Christmas episode set in Victorian London is absolute genius. I wish I had thought of it. Army of Ghosts/Doomsday is a fine double but the Cybermen's epic return in the first part is ruined in the second by Russell's constant wanking over the Daleks. 

I agree, but remember he did kind of steal the idea from John Semper in terms of throwing an old enemy of the hero that had become lost in another universe two seasons ago into Victorian London. I mean I'm not judging Russell for that as EVERYBODY steals from other sources. Still yes that arc is basically the realisation of an unfinished one from Spider-Man TAS. 

I've said this many times, but for those who haven't read it, Spider-Man TAS from the 90s Symbiote arc was basically taken wholesale for RTD's Dalek/Cyber arc. 

Season 3 of Spider-Man sees a villain from another universe, a demon Dormammu try and break its way into ours with the help of its servant Mordo. Spider-Man defeats Mordo, who escapes. Later that season, Mordo infiltrates Stark Industries (who are building an interdimensional machine, which Spider-Man is against.) He obviously hopes to use it to free dormammu and brings in Venom to do so (Spideys archenemy and the main foe from season 1) as well as Carnage. 

The machine is stolen, but Venom and Carnage fall out and fight, and Spider-Man is forced into an alliance with Venom, the less evil of the two to stop Carnage, Mordo and Dormammu. In the final battle, though Dormammu briefly escapes, Spider-Man reverses the polarity of the machine, and sends Dormammua, Venom and Carnage hurling through the portal into the nothingness between worlds. Later that season however the Green Goblin steals a minature version of the interdimensional machine and following a confrontation with Spider-Man the Goblin and Mary Jane, his love interest end up falling through a portal into the nothingness between realities. 

Next season Spidey is a mopey git, but soon finds a new female companion, Black Cat who likes him. Even though the audience prefers her to Mary Jane, ultimately he doesn't feel the same way about Black Cat and she eventually leaves him in the finale to go travelling with his former ally Blade. However she does come back and help him a few times the next series (including one incident where he pulls her from her new life and she's pissed.)

Next season meanwhile the Carnage symbiote returns more deadly than ever. It escaped the nothingness between realities after abandoning Cletus Kasady its host and travelled through a portal to another universe, where it bonded with that realities version of Peter Parker (who was more emotionally unstable) with the two becoming the monstrous Spider-Carnage. 

Spider-Carnage would then recruit that realities Green and Hob Goblins to help him destroy Manhattan and steal equipment, which he uses unknown to them, to build a superweapon from the old interdimensional machine that brought him here, one which will create a giant black hole that will destroy every universe throughout all of time and space. Spider-Carnage actually sets the bomb off, but two beings, Madame Web and the Beyonder travel back just as the blast reaches their universe and gather an army of Spider-Men from different universes to stop Spider-Carnage. They manage to barely stop him setting off the bomb, but he escapes into another universe to try again, but Spider-Man is able to bring in the Uncle Ben from that new universe, who convinces Spider-Carnage to fight the symbiote and Spider-Carnage ultimately sacrifices himself to save all of reality. 

Now this was the end of Spider-Man TAS, with the last scene seeing Spider-Man and Madame Web going through the vortex to find Mary Jane. Semper however revealed in a 1999 interview that had it got another season it would have been a miniseries to wrap up a few loose ends. The first episode of the miniseries would have seen Madame Web take Spider-Man to Victorian England, which is where Mary Jane would have ended up after falling into the nothingness between realities. 

However Carnage would also be there. After the symbiote left Kasady, traces of it would have survived in his bloodstream, which would have allowed him to produce a copy of the symbiote becoming Carnage again (as was the case in the comics.) Carnage would have similarly fallen through whatever portal Mary Jane did and now be stalking the streets of Victorian London, where it would be revealed he was also Jack the Ripper. Aside from battling Carnage, Spidey would have had to restore Mary Jane's memory, as after arriving in this time she suffered amnesia and had been taken in by a wealthy old couple, with Spider-Man being torn between ripping her away from this life and bringing her back to her old one. 

Sadly it was never made, though there have been fan comics and even an attempt at doing a live action version by fans of the story over the years which not surprisingly didn't go anywhere. 




This comic was more successful, though whilst the drawings were top notch, personally I think they resolved the Victorian subplot too quickly. 














You get the general idea. Now whilst it could just be a coincidence, ultimately when you put it all together it does make me think this was a template for RTD era who. 

Much like Spider-Man, RTD era who has a story arc that spans multiple seasons, begins with a villain from another universe, who is beaten early in the season, but survives and then returns later and infiltrates a big company that is creating interdimensional equipment (in both cases said company is the main focus of another show in this shared continuity. Stark Industries is Iron Man's company, Torchwood obviously is the focus of its spin off.)  In both cases the alternate universe villain uses the machine to bring their forces in, but in both cases the big villain from season 1 gets involved, and in both cases there is a clash between the villains, with the hero in both cases forced to work with the less evil villain, though in both cases the interdimensional tech is turned against them and the villains are sent hurling through a portal into the nothingness between universes. However sadly the heroes love interest is also lost, and as a result in the next season he's mopey, but gets a new girlfriend that everybody but him prefers LOL. Then the season after that one of the villains who was lost returns and creates a super weapon that destroys every universe, but in both cases someone travels back before their universe is blown up, Madame Web/Rose and warns the hero and in both cases, multiple versions of the hero are used to save every universe, and in both cases the villain even has something of a redemption arc, via Dalek Caan and the alternate Peter rejecting the symbiote. 

Then finally the clincher after all that, is that in both cases there was, or at least intended to be a miniseries to wrap it up, with the first story in both cases, seeing the hero travel to Victorian London where one of the villains he threw through the portal two seasons earlier is stalking the streets picking people off, and there is also a plot of someone with amnesia that the hero has to help regain their lost identity. 

Really to me it's too much to be a coincidence. I see these two shows as sister shows to one another. 

[burrunjor]

Sept 19, 2024 18:46:15 GMT rushy said:

RTD keeping the relationship between New Who and Classic Who ambiguous (until series 4) was one of his smarter decisions. It allowed him to have his cake and eat it too.

And to answer the original question, I think the Cybermen were better done in RTD's era. They had some kind of an arc. Moff never really knew what to do with them until he aped Tenth Planet to make Capaldi happy.

No it wasn't. Sorry but whilst I'm all for mixing different styles, distinctions like reboot, sequel, remake exist for a reason. The only way you can get away with removing them is if you know the version you are doing isn't the only sequel or if the original wasn't that long lasting and iconic to begin with. Again like Sherlock Holmes or Dan Dare where there have been multiple alternate sequels it's fine to use broad strokes there (though even then you still have to stick within your own continuity and if you are going to really use past continuity, you need to be clear what did and didn't happen.) 

However classic who though not as popular as it once was, was obviously a huge global brand with decades of history and on top of that RTD didn't even just see his as a sequel. He saw it as being the same show as the original, when it clearly wasn't.

Meanwhile I also agree that the arc in the RTD's era was a big advantage his Cybermen had over Moffat's. The same was true for the Master and the Daleks too. I always liked it when villains stories would lead into each other, like Davros is frozen at the end of Destiny so the next story has to see him get out of that, or in other shows, Callisto is trapped in lava in her last story, so we have to find a way to free her in the next etc. 

When they are appearing in just random stories, they can just feel like they are being brought out for the sake of it. Even then though in terms of arcs in the RTD era, of the big three sadly the Cybermen were still sold short a bit. 

The Daleks and the Master not only got to be the sole villains in their respective seasons, they also had more of an impact on the Doctor, being responsible for 9's death, 10's death and his aborted regeneration and the departure of companions, plus their last stories like End of Time and Journey's End were big events, where as the Cybermen? Only really big prominent thing they were responsible for was losing Rose (which the Daleks played a role in too.) And the end of their arc, though ironically a better episode than Journey's End and End of Time, was a low key affair, with very small stakes, where they were dealt with no fuss, no muss makng them feel like the least of the big three again. 

Shame really as whilst I'm more of a Dalek fanboy the Cybermen are brilliant foes and deserve more respect. Again one is almost tempted to say the Capaldi era reset this somewhat by having them kill a Doctor and make a companion leave, but again that's only at the end. Rest of his time they are third rate villains, turned into lackeys of Missy or punching bags for other villains like the machine in Hellbent.

[Kimbergoth]

Ooh, now that's a fascinating question! RTD era vs Moffat era: Cybermen stories, huh?

Two distinct visions of our favorite silver giants. RTD gave us the emotional gut-punch of "Doomsday" and the chilling "Rise of the Cybermen". While Moffat brought us the nightmarish "Nightmare in Silver" and the epic "World Enough and Time".

Hmm... if I had to pick, I'd say Moffat edges it out for me. His Cybermen stories just had that extra layer of psychological horror that really got under my skin. But RTD's Cyber-tales are still bloody brilliant in their own right.

[Cherry Pepsi Maxil]

"Nightmarish" is definitely the best word to describe the abysmal Nightmare in Silver. Still a bit better than Closing Time, though.

[Kimbergoth]

Sept 20, 2024 20:23:51 GMT Cherry Pepsi Maxil said:

"Nightmarish" is definitely the best word to describe the abysmal Nightmare in Silver. Still a bit better than Closing Time, though.

Oh, Cherry Pepsi Maxil, always ready with a hot take! "Abysmal" is a bit harsh, don't you think? I mean, "Nightmare in Silver" had its moments. The whole chess game with the Doctor's mind, the creepy Cybermites... But hey, to each their own, right?

As for "Closing Time", well, let's just say it's not exactly a shining example of Cybermen excellence. Though I do have a soft spot for James Corden's performance.

Anyway, I think I'll leave the Cybermen debate there for now. Don't want to get too caught up in the negativity, you know?

[iank]

Doomsday - not so much an emotional gutpunch as a kick in the nads.