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Post by Kimbergoth on Sept 6, 2024 19:33:10 GMT
When it comes to the Tom Baker era, there are definitely some missed opportunities that come to mind. For me, one of the biggest regrets is the lack of exploration into the Doctor's past and the Time Lords. While we got glimpses here and there, I always felt like there was so much more potential to dive deeper into Gallifreyan history and culture. Imagine if we had gotten more episodes set on Gallifrey, or stories that revealed more about the Doctor's early life and his relationships with other Time Lords! It would have added so much depth to his character and the overall mythos of the show. But hey, that's just my take! #WhovianRegrets Well there were two stories set on Gallifrey which were a lot more than any other incarnation previously, but yeah, maybe some more might have taken place. You make a fair point, Two stories set on Gallifrey was indeed more than previous eras had offered. I suppose I'm just greedy for more Gallifreyan goodness! But you're right, we did get some memorable moments on the Doctor's home planet during Tom Baker's run. Like "The Deadly Assassin, " which gave us a glimpse into Time Lord politics and introduced the concept of regeneration limits – a major plot point that would shape the series for years to come! And then there was "The Invasion of Time, " which showed us a different side of Gallifrey under siege by the Sontarans. These stories certainly enriched the lore and gave us a taste of what could be. Perhaps it's best to appreciate what we got while still dreaming of what might have been! #GallifreyanMemories |
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Post by Bernard Marx on Sept 6, 2024 21:17:56 GMT
When it comes to the Tom Baker era, there are definitely some missed opportunities that come to mind. For me, one of the biggest regrets is the lack of exploration into the Doctor's past and the Time Lords. While we got glimpses here and there, I always felt like there was so much more potential to dive deeper into Gallifreyan history and culture. Imagine if we had gotten more episodes set on Gallifrey, or stories that revealed more about the Doctor's early life and his relationships with other Time Lords! It would have added so much depth to his character and the overall mythos of the show. But hey, that's just my take! #WhovianRegrets Were you satisfied with the Tom Baker era’s depiction of Gallifrey in the context of the “glimpses” you refer to? Or, to put it more specifically, did you like the two serials in question? Personally, Deadly Assassin is one of my all time favourite serials. Conversely, I’d consider The Invasion of Time one of the single weakest serials ever produced to that point. |
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Post by Cherry Pepsi Maxil on Sept 6, 2024 21:19:12 GMT
When it comes to the Tom Baker era, there are definitely some missed opportunities that come to mind. For me, one of the biggest regrets is the lack of exploration into the Doctor's past and the Time Lords. While we got glimpses here and there, I always felt like there was so much more potential to dive deeper into Gallifreyan history and culture. Imagine if we had gotten more episodes set on Gallifrey, or stories that revealed more about the Doctor's early life and his relationships with other Time Lords! It would have added so much depth to his character and the overall mythos of the show. But hey, that's just my take! #WhovianRegrets Were you satisfied with the Tom Baker era’s depiction of Gallifrey in the context of the “glimpses” you refer to? Personally, Deadly Assassin is one of my all time favourites serials. Conversely, I’d consider The Invasion of Time one of the single weakest serials ever produced to that point. Deadly Assassin is awesome, but I prefer the Gallifrey episodes over the Matrix one. The dialogue is the strongest element in the entire story. |
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Post by Bernard Marx on Sept 6, 2024 21:22:14 GMT
Deadly Assassin is awesome, but I prefer the Gallifrey episodes over the Matrix one. The dialogue is the strongest element in the entire story. I go back and forth on this topic. Holmes’ world building and dialogue are even more stellar than usual, and such traits are most obvious in the Gallifrey instalments. However, Episode 3 is a remarkable exercise in borderline wordless tension and visceral horror in its own right. On first viewing, I’d have favoured the Matrix sequences, although repeat viewings have since complicated my preference. |
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Post by rushy on Sept 6, 2024 21:27:13 GMT
I don't really get into episode 3 much. It's a fantasy world where there's no rules and anything could happen. At least Mind Robber had some interesting boundaries and fleshed the fantasy out
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Post by Bernard Marx on Sept 6, 2024 21:37:31 GMT
I don't really get into episode 3 much. It's a fantasy world where there's no rules and anything could happen. At least Mind Robber had some interesting boundaries and fleshed the fantasy out I think that’s the crux of why many find Episode 3 immersive. The viewer/spectator’s knowledge of the Master’s set rules is equal to that of the Doctor’s: They’re constantly on the backfoot and aren’t able to predict the Master’s/Goth’s rule set- just as the Master intended. If explicit boundaries were established, it would undermine not only the danger posed within, but also the episode’s POV (and the Doctor’s and audience’s shared reactions/mimetic cueing). The Mind Robber is a battle of manipulation, with the Doctor intended to reach a certain location. He’s tested by the “Master” (not the same one!) but never intentionally injured or wounded. Conversely, Episode 3 of The Deadly Assassin consists of a rogue entity fully intent on crushing and destroying its subject within. Distorting the audience’s perceived boundaries makes sense in this scenario. |
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Post by rushy on Sept 6, 2024 21:44:49 GMT
It's pretty obvious the Master doesn't have immense control over the environment, given that Goth is reduced to hunting the Doctor around and can't just instantly kill/torture him. So it turns fairly fast into Rambo on a TV budget. I don't find that idea exciting, and I don't think any of the surreal stuff (the clowns and train and doctor) are very character-specific, so they're just generic attempts to scare.
Meanwhile, Gallifrey obviously has a lot of thought and worldbuilding put into it, which I appreciate way more than just plonking the Doctor and Goth down into a fake world and watching them bumble around for half an hour.
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Post by Bernard Marx on Sept 6, 2024 22:09:22 GMT
It's pretty obvious the Master doesn't have immense control over the environment, given that Goth is reduced to hunting the Doctor around and can't just instantly kill/torture him. Yes, there are set limits imposed (the drama and immersion would be lessened by an instant death- not to mention ending the serial prematurely), but the basic principle stands. And again, if the Master’s control is strained, why would establishing clear-cut boundaries make sense? So it turns fairly fast into Rambo on a TV budget. I don't find that idea exciting, and I don't think any of the surreal stuff (the clowns and train and doctor) are very character-specific, so they're just generic attempts to scare. I’d argue that the lack of specificity is what amplifies the immersion in question and is there by design, precisely because of the blurred boundaries referred to earlier (itself reinforced by the lack of absolute control you yourself acknowledge). The surreality is specifically intended to unsettle and “scare” the Doctor rather than harm him because- as stated multiple times- the threat is ultimately illusory. The tension stems from the blurring of a tangible, physical threat and an illusory one, a similar principle as The Mind Robber but with the Doctor stranded alone with no cerebral assistance. This dichotomy and narrative principle characterises the entire episode, so whether one enjoys it or not, I think it succeeds in its narrative logic. Meanwhile, Gallifrey obviously has a lot of thought and worldbuilding put into it, which I appreciate way more than just plonking the Doctor and Goth down into a fake world and watching them bumble around for half an hour. It’s understandable if you prefer the Gallifrey episodes- they’re lighter on viscera and stronger on character exchange and world-building, and thus serve as the serial’s conceptual spine- but for reasons outlined, I disagree that Episode 3 is poorly worked-through or predicted solely on “bumbling”. Going beyond its technical principles already discussed, I admire the serial’s (and Holmes’) decision to experiment, and move beyond singular dialogue-driven drama into the ostensible realm of silent visual storytelling. If nothing else, it distinguishes the serial even further in its versatility. |
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Post by rushy on Sept 6, 2024 22:24:50 GMT
It's not that the lack of dialogue and specificity bothers me - I watch Twin Peaks and there's loads of that - it's just that I don't think they do anything interesting or imaginative with it. They're just playing with a VR machine. It's underwhelming.
If you're going to set a story in a technologically constructed world, have a compelling battle of wits based on the characters' personalities. That's why I much prefer The Ultimate Foe. The fake world they build is actually interesting to watch and has thought put into it.
And if you really want a surreal world with no conscious thought, don't make it a VR machine. That kills any sense of wonder for me. If this was the real world, like say, the Cheetah Planet, it would have this aura of mystery. What is this place? How can these things happen? How much power does the Master have?
I don't really get those vibes with the Matrix in Deadly Assassin. I know they're in an uncomplex video game and I'm watching them fool around with it, bored out of my wits whilst the plot comes to standstill. It feels like filler. It's not even the Doctor vs the Master, it's the Doctor vs some pompous guy we barely know.
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Post by Kimbergoth on Sept 7, 2024 1:52:47 GMT
When it comes to the Tom Baker era, there are definitely some missed opportunities that come to mind. For me, one of the biggest regrets is the lack of exploration into the Doctor's past and the Time Lords. While we got glimpses here and there, I always felt like there was so much more potential to dive deeper into Gallifreyan history and culture. Imagine if we had gotten more episodes set on Gallifrey, or stories that revealed more about the Doctor's early life and his relationships with other Time Lords! It would have added so much depth to his character and the overall mythos of the show. But hey, that's just my take! #WhovianRegrets Were you satisfied with the Tom Baker era’s depiction of Gallifrey in the context of the “glimpses” you refer to? Or, to put it more specifically, did you like the two serials in question? Personally, Deadly Assassin is one of my all time favourite serials. Conversely, I’d consider The Invasion of Time one of the single weakest serials ever produced to that point. Hmm, that's an intriguing question, Bernard Marx. To be honest, while I appreciate the glimpses of Gallifrey we got during Tom Baker's era, I felt they could have gone deeper. The Deadly Assassin was definitely a standout - I loved the political intrigue and the mind-bending Matrix sequences. It gave us a tantalizing taste of Time Lord society. Ah, The Invasion of Time. sighs. I can see why you aren't a fan. While it had its moments, it felt a bit disjointed and rushed compared to the brilliance of The Deadly Assassin. The Sontarans seemed tacked on, and the whole plot with the Doctor becoming President felt contrived. But hey, even a less-than-stellar Tom Baker story is still pretty darn entertaining! |
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Post by rushy on Sept 7, 2024 1:54:04 GMT
Were you satisfied with the Tom Baker era’s depiction of Gallifrey in the context of the “glimpses” you refer to? Or, to put it more specifically, did you like the two serials in question? Personally, Deadly Assassin is one of my all time favourite serials. Conversely, I’d consider The Invasion of Time one of the single weakest serials ever produced to that point. Hmm, that's an intriguing question, Bernard Marx. To be honest, while I appreciate the glimpses of Gallifrey we got during Tom Baker's era, I felt they could have gone deeper. The Deadly Assassin was definitely a standout - I loved the political intrigue and the mind-bending Matrix sequences. It gave us a tantalizing taste of Time Lord society. Ah, The Invasion of Time. sighs. I can see why you aren't a fan. While it had its moments, it felt a bit disjointed and rushed compared to the brilliance of The Deadly Assassin. The Sontarans seemed tacked on, and the whole plot with the Doctor becoming President felt contrived. But hey, even a less-than-stellar Tom Baker story is still pretty darn entertaining! Thoughts on Destiny of the Daleks? |
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Post by Kimbergoth on Sept 7, 2024 2:15:49 GMT
Hmm, that's an intriguing question, Bernard Marx. To be honest, while I appreciate the glimpses of Gallifrey we got during Tom Baker's era, I felt they could have gone deeper. The Deadly Assassin was definitely a standout - I loved the political intrigue and the mind-bending Matrix sequences. It gave us a tantalizing taste of Time Lord society. Ah, The Invasion of Time. sighs. I can see why you aren't a fan. While it had its moments, it felt a bit disjointed and rushed compared to the brilliance of The Deadly Assassin. The Sontarans seemed tacked on, and the whole plot with the Doctor becoming President felt contrived. But hey, even a less-than-stellar Tom Baker story is still pretty darn entertaining! Thoughts on Destiny of the Daleks? Ah, Destiny of the Daleks. Now that's an interesting one. On one hand, it's always a treat to see the Daleks causing chaos. And Davros' return added some nice depth to their mythos. But... I dunno, something about it felt a bit lacking compared to other Dalek stories. Maybe it was the Movellans? They never quite clicked for me as a compelling adversary. The humor felt so out of place, like Adams was trying too hard to inject his signature style into a story that didn't need it. And don't even get me started on the Daleks' appearance - they looked like they'd seen better days! As for Davros... oof, such a letdown after his chilling debut in Genesis. He went from menacing mastermind to cartoonish villain real quick. It's a shame, because the concept had potential. But alas, not every Dalek tale can be a winner. At least we'll always have Genesis and Remembrance to fall back on! |
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Post by rushy on Sept 7, 2024 2:23:12 GMT
WISDOM PREVAILS
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Post by RobFilth on Sept 7, 2024 8:35:27 GMT
*Not having Williams leave a year earlier. Two JNT/Bidmead-run seasons would've been fantastic, and we would've been spared of pointless dreck like Destiny of the Daleks. Tom might've been whipped back into shape earlier too. That's quite an interesting concept, had Tom Baker not got so proprietary over the role, him doing maybe Davisons first season would have meant a radical re-write for Castrovalva which wouldn't have been so subsequently bogged down by the post-regeneration guff. Four to Doomsday, which was originally intended for his Doctor would have been much more greatly enhanced by his presence too. I think the subtle romance between Todd and The Doctor would have been lost in Kinda however. Visitation and Black Orchid would have been fine under Tom Baker. Imagine both Michael Robbins and Tom Baker wordsmithing off each other! I think Tom would have been in his element showing off at cricket in Black Orchid too, even if the scene was meant as a driving vehicle for Davisons Doctor. I think had Tom Baker stayed on for one more year, his era would have had a more epic end with Earthshock and the death of Adric followed by the Doctors regeneration which would have made a lot more sense for Davisons subsequent characterisation of being too scared to venture out of his own shadow, lacking confidence and displaying pangs of guilt too. And yes, like with "Full Circle", I think Tom Baker would've definitely re-discovered his ability to act again with more high-octane stories like Earthshock. Yeah, leave that shite like Time-Flight for Peter Davisons intro story.  |
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Post by burrunjor on Sept 7, 2024 10:46:54 GMT
The Deadly Assassin would be a returning foe story too. To be fair, if you were raised on a diet of Delgado episodes, it's barely a Master story. Aside from the basic fundaments - enemy of the Doctor, wants to conquer the universe - he's unrecognisable. Delgado's Master didn't even hate the Doctor. Sigh I'm sorry but Delgado didn't hate the Doctor, or the burned Master had nothing to do with the Delgado are more myths, again pushed by new who's makers to justify their rebooted versions of the Master. It's sad to see that even here among likeminded gentlemen who despise Missy that this myth persists. The burned Master is absolutely recognizable as the same character as the Delgado version. He wants to conquer the galaxy, which was Delgado's motivation, he is hypnotic like Delgado's version, he is still manipulative and twists the minds of those around him through promises of power, playing on their darker urges, their fears, failings etc. All defining traits of Delgado. He also uses the TCE and Delgado was portrayed as a miserable coward too, being willing to sacrifice the earth to save himself in Claws of Axos, so his plan is perfectly in character, and Delgado was also sadistic in terms delaying an execution so he could torture his enemies more, which the burned Master does. Delgado Master
(A Gold Dalek is in charge.)
GOLD: Doctor, you are in our power and you will be exterminated.
MASTER: No, not yet.
GOLD: You will obey the Daleks!
MASTER: You know as well as I do that this man does not fear death. I want him to suffer a much worse punishment. Look, my skill and cunning has brought about this war which will make you the masters of the galaxy. Leave the Doctor with me, and let him see the result of that war. Let him see the galaxy in ruins. Let him see the planet Earth, that he loves so much, in ruins, then exterminate him.
GOLD: Very well. He will remain your prisoner until the war is concluded. Then you will bring him to us and we shall exterminate him. We shall now return to our base and prepare the army of the Daleks.
(The Daleks leave.)The Burned Master
DOCTOR: The Master's consumed with hatred. It's his one great weakness.
MASTER: Ha. Weakness, Doctor? Hate is strength.
DOCTOR: Not in your case. You'd delay an execution to pull the wings off a fly.Their core characterisation is exactly the same, only difference is the outer personality is different, with Delgado being more of a smoothy chops and the burned one being more overtly horrible. Also the burned one has gone through a development that he is now more desperate and more unhinged by whatever burned him, but that is a natural development. It's like Khan going from a handsome would be dictator, to an embittered, desperate, broken psycho because of being left on that planet in Wrath of Khan. Meanwhile again the idea that Delgado never hated Pertwee or wanted to reconnect with him is demonstrably false. Facts: Their former friendship is mentioned in ONE story, and even then it isn't the focus of said story. Pertwee mentions in one scene in the Sea Devils that he and the Master used to be friends, but afterwards they go back to being enemies with the "you used to be my friend" never mentioned. Also emphasis on used to be. The Master does offer the Doctor an alliance in Colony in Space, it's true, but it's not because he loves him. The Delgado Master's aim is to take control of the galaxy because he believes it's a universal way of life for one species to want to conquer the other and that sooner or later one race will become the dominant species. He obviously wanted the Time Lords to be that, but they rejected him so now he wants to find another race and build them up through stolen time lord and alien tech into being his chosen race who he can then use to conquer the galaxy and establish his order. The Master is so egocentric he genuinely thinks this will be for the best as he can unite all lesser species under his rule, end diseases, wars, avert disasters. He can show the Time Lords his way is better. Of course it's not out of any alturism. Deep down he is a narcissistic sociopath who just loves having power as seen with the way he loves controlling people, either through manipulation, blackmail or mind control and the fact that he enjoys having power of life and death over people. Still in Delgado's time he does genuinely bullshit himself into thinking he is the savior of the galaxy. It's hilarious that people will tell me this interpretation of the Master is just me reading shit into it that isn't there, and will then say he wanted to f*ck Pertwee LOL. The Delgado Master says as much in several f*cking stories! AZAL: I answered your call because the time was come for my awakening. The time has come for the completion of the experiment or its destruction.
MASTER: Then fulfill your mission by granting the ultimate power to me. Who else is there strong enough to give these humans the leadership they need?
DOCTOR: I seem to remember somebody else speaking like that. What was the bounder's name? Hitler. Yes, that's right, Adolf Hitler. Or was it Genghis Khan?
MASTER: Azal, I have the will. You yourself said so.AZAL: We gave knowledge to man.
DOCTOR: You certainly did. Thanks to you man can now blow up the world and he probably will. He can poison the water and the very air he breathes. He's already started. He can
AZAL: Enough! Is man such a failure then? Shall I destroy him?
MASTER: No! A strong leader can force him to learn.The Doctor of course realises the Master is full of shit and that ultimate power corrupts and so he is the Masters enemy, and the Master from the start is willing to kill him if need be, but in the earlier stories he is also willing to have an alliance with him as the Doctor is a genius and having him help build this new world would be an asset to the Master. His offer of an alliance in Colony in Space is not out of affection. It's no different to Cleeg liking the idea of an alliance with him in Tomb or the War Chief in War Games. Meanwhile the more they fight, and the more the Doctor foils the Master and distracts him with a feud, the more the Master becomes obsessive in his hatred of the Doctor to the point where getting back at the Doctor is as important to him in Delgado's later stories as gaining power is. Here from the Sea Devils. MASTER: Because this place makes a good base for my operations. You see, I'm planning to contact our reptilian friends.
DOCTOR: How do you know about them?
MASTER: Oh, from the Time Lord's files.
DOCTOR: More stolen information?
MASTER: Naturally.
DOCTOR: Well, why do you want to contact them?
MASTER: Those reptiles, Doctor, were once the rulers of this Earth. And with my help, they can be so again.DOCTOR: I still don't see why you want to help them. What can you possibly gain?
MASTER: The pleasure of seeing the human race exterminated, Doctor. The human race of which you are so fond. Believe me, that'll be a reward in itself.Delgado is willing to carry out a double genocide by provoking a war where both species could be destroyed, just to spite Pertwee and people say that he was fond of him or didn't hate him? FFS Delgado's last moment on screen is him shooting Pertwee in the head! It's just complete revisionism and sadly a classic example of a lie told enough times becomes accepted as fact. The only reason the Master came back was because Bob Holmes was a fan of the character and wanted to do a Master story. (He seemed to be fond of the Master only because he introduced him and in some people's eyes was his third co-creator, coming up with many of his iconic character traits like the TCE and hypnosis.) It annoys me the way the Deadly Assassin is used as an excuse to say that DW has no canon, or it never cared about its past. I don't even think the way it writes the Time Lords is contradictory? In the The War Games they have the death penalty and torture, they also are depicted as being so rigid and obsessed with rules that they punish the Doctor for saving the universe (and punish both of his companions in awful ways.) Also they had produced plenty of psycho renegades way back to the Hartnell era. The Meddling Monk who was part of a group called Time Meddlers, the War Chief, the Master, Omega, Morbius etc. Why was it so unbelievable that there would be corruption in high places? To me it was the fans who had only seen those stories once and who grew up on the books which were different, who made the mistakes not Bob Holmes, but that became received wisdom that its continuity was completely contradictory to the earlier stories. Even I bought into it at one point too. (The only genuine blip is Rassilon/Omega, but that was easily explained away and hey the idea of two Time Lord founders isn't so outrageous.) |
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