Post by burrunjor on Aug 28, 2024 19:34:53 GMT
From old and new who.
I'm going to say.
1/ The Burned Master: I do flip flop between him and Delgado all the time, but for now I'll be original since most choose Delgado and say that the burned Master is my favourite. The Deadly Assassin is the best Master story in all fairness of them all. This version of the character is legitimately scary. Hinchcliff felt the character wasn't threatening enough, but unlike those in the revival, he didn't throw everything out about the character and he justified those changes by making them natural developments. IE it's not that the Master was always crazy and we didn't know about it, more that he has been pushed by losing his regenerations and ending up like this. All the best bits about Delgado's portrayal are still there, like his manipulative streak, his predatory behavior, his vindictiveness, his hypnotic powers and shrinking ray, but he is a lot grittier. More willing to get his hands dirty, more brutal, sadistic yet we are also taken deeper into his craven cowardice more than ever. I preferred the look in the Deadly Assassin. I know it did limit the actors voice a little bit, but overall I think it was a lot more iconic and terrifying, though Geoffrey Beavers had an amazing voice.
2/ Delgado: He is at the top of most people's lists, but that is only because he was that brilliant. The part was actually written for him to be fair. Delgado had such a devilish charm, smoothness and great sense of humour. He could fool you into thinking he wasn't such a bad guy which made it all the more effective when he did something nasty like pushing Jo Grant into the air lock. He also had arguably the most genuinely complex personality of any incarnation,, with more fleshed out, interesting motivations that made you think at first that he was just a misguided character who wanted to change history like the monk to ultimately help, only to gradually see what a twisted, petty sociopath he was in stories like the Sea Devils. His relationship with the Doctor was also similarly more complex, having genuine malice, but also a grudging respect and insecurity over proving he was superior. The Delgado Master I find has lots of little moments that flesh out his character that aren't important to the story in a way that other versions don't have like in the Mind of Evil where we see his greatest fear is a giant Doctor laughing at him. Only problem with him is overuse, but most of his stories are at least watchable. A few are absolute classics.
3/ Ainley: I'll admit I was a bit unsure where to put him compared to my next choice. He has ,a very schizophrenic history with some classic stories, and some atrocious ones. Sadly Ainley himself can also waver between subtle, menacing and vicious, and silly, stupid, and one note. He definitely suffered from overuse, and unlike Delgado wasn't even always the main villain in every story he appeared in further making him feel more of a generic cartoon baddie. Still overall Ainley's version had a good grasp on the character in terms of core characterisation and developed it well from the previous versions. Also his highlights still represent some of the characters best stories with Survival probably being the best focus on the Doctor/Master relationship and Ainley giving possibly the best individual performance of anyone in the role. Their final showdown is without doubt the most iconic individual Master/Doctor fight in both series. For all their intellect and sophistication they both hate each other so much their final battle is still just them trying to clobber each other to death.
Survival also I think represents a more nuanced take on the character than people give him credit for. It's a Master who is taken over by a power that at first scares him. It brings out twisted urges even he is scared of, not out of any morality, but because he considered himself above such things. However as time goes on he embraces it because it strips away the last illusion of sanity he had left and he can become the monster he always was. He goes from more vulnerable and scared to more dangerous than ever.
4/ John Simm: This is another one I've gone back and forth on. Okay plus points, Simm is an excellent actor. Also this Master had the clearest arc of any version and therefore never fell into the trap that Ainley or yes, even Delgado did where the Master returns just for the sake of it, in a story that's not really right for him, but hey we need a big name villain. Simm's Master was always the focus, and each story moved his arc and characterisation on. More than any other Master he went through rapid changes, even just physically over the course of his three stories, but again the changes all felt natural like his more desperate state in The End of Time.
He was also a great tragic villain overall. Like Callisto, the Joker and Carnage, all of whom inspired him, he was a villain who you wavered between pitying and loathing as what he went through was so horrific, and the fact that it happened to himm when he was a child really just highlights how he never had a chance. At the same time what he does is just so obscene, your sympathy can only go so far and it really does make you think at one point does a poor soul stop being a poor soul? Also Simm benefits from being the main antagonist in what is New Who's best season and to be honest his arc is integrated more successfully into it. It's not just a word like Torchwood that has little meaning, but at the same time it's not too intrusive like the Silence arc in s6. Saxon bubbles away in the background, intriguing you, even having an influence on some episodes, but never taking them over until the end.
Negative points against him? His history is sadly spotty. He has three classic stories, Utopia (which he is only in at the end, though what an ending it is.) The Sound of Drums and World Enough and Time.
Last of the Time Lords is an absolute joke, though at least unlike Timeflight it's not boring, but yeah it's about as panto as DW ever got. (Literally the audience practically wishes the Doctor back to life.) End of Time sorry whilst Simm's bits and his ending is very good, I think it's dreary and too campy. Finally The Doctor Falls is good, but more for the Cybermen. Simm is shacked to Pissy Missy and turned into a bit of a joke asking Bill if he can borrow her knickers, and getting a stiffy at being threatened and he doesn't really do much either except annoy people and flee before the final showdown. To be honest he came over as an unintentional audience surrogate LOL. Apart from when he was being horrible to Bill (and I wanted to punch him for making Pearl Mackie cry LOL,) he seemed to sum up what I was thinking about the rest of the story. Telling Capaldi that pretentious and obnoxious be kind speech was bullshit, shooting Missy in disgust at what a shit character he'll become, and pointing out what a cuck the 12th Doctor had become that he was now embarrassed at having genitals. Simm was the hero we needed in that story.
Also it must be said that even a lot of the good things about Simm like his new tragic backstory do NOT work as a sequel to the classic era Master. Indeed they toss out the Masters entire arc from Delgado to Roberts. He works better as a reinvention, but since not everybody views him that way and indeed since he wasn't actually meant to be that, then I have to have Ainley above him as Ainley flowed better.
5/ Eric Roberts: I have nothing against this version of the Master. Furthermore I lose respect (only as a DW fan, not in real life LOL) for anyone who says he was the worst over Missy. In my opinion anyone who says that isn't being honest. They are just scared of being called a sexist or are politically biased. My answer? Go watch some female led things and maybe you won't think you have to support the worst female characters for representation. (PS Callisto is a female version of Simm's Master though she came first and is great unlike Missy.)
Anyway Roberts is a good actor, his performance was fine, his characterisation was spot on and I view the 96 movie as quite a good end to the arc begun in Delgado's time where we see the Master start out with big plans to reshape the universe in his own image, but become distracted by a petty vindictive feud with the Doctor, which along with other factors like losing his lives and being infected with the cheetah virus, turn him into a shell of his former self, with Roberts being on the level of an animal at times, though he is still underneath as sharp as ever.
My only points with Roberts is that he doesn't really bring much new to the role. He's kind of just a stop gap Master, even his story is very similar to the Deadly Assassin of opening the eye and prolonging his life.
6/ Sacha Dahwan: Not bad at all. He was a breath of fresh air after Missy. He looked the role more than Simm with his classic beard of evil and striking, more exotic looks. He also nailed the Masters petty hatred of the Doctor, and it was nice to see the TCE make a return (and have decent effects for a change.) However he was in literally the worst story, The Timeless Children and sadly will always be remembered for delivering a clunky bit of exposition that wrecked 60 years of history. Beyond that I think a problem with Dhawan also was that much like Roberts he didn't bring anything new to the part. He seemed to try and take a little bit of every actor to be fair. A bit of manipulation like Delgado, a bit of manic unpredictability like Simm, a bit of flamboyance like Ainley, and the pettiness of the burned Master. With a better script he could have been the Mark Hamill of Masters that blended them all together, but sadly with such poor stories that didn't even use the Master properly, then it just ended up being random moments from the others.
7/ Derek Jacobi: Brilliant actor and performance, however if we're being fair since he only had 2 mins I think he should be at the bottom. Ironically if he'd had longer he could have been the best and at least the single episode he is in, Utopia is one of the best stories to feature the Master. I'd say top 5 Master stories are The Deadly Assassin, Survival, Utopia, Frontier in Space and Five Doctors. Still at only two mins I'm afraid he has to be at the bottom.
I'm not going to include Missy as she was not an adaptation of the Master. She was Moff's dominatrix fantasy woman repackaged for the fourth time after River, Irene and Tasha Lem all of whom she shares the exact same story arc as. She's the worst in that list too by the way, as at least River was more likable and actually redeemable. (We didn't see the Doctor kiss River after she'd murdered a helpless fangirl and thrown the daughter of his oldest and dearest friend out of an airplane.) Irene was only in one story, and Tasha similarly wasn't obnoxious or thrust on us for 3 f*cking years.
What's your ranking?
I'm going to say.
1/ The Burned Master: I do flip flop between him and Delgado all the time, but for now I'll be original since most choose Delgado and say that the burned Master is my favourite. The Deadly Assassin is the best Master story in all fairness of them all. This version of the character is legitimately scary. Hinchcliff felt the character wasn't threatening enough, but unlike those in the revival, he didn't throw everything out about the character and he justified those changes by making them natural developments. IE it's not that the Master was always crazy and we didn't know about it, more that he has been pushed by losing his regenerations and ending up like this. All the best bits about Delgado's portrayal are still there, like his manipulative streak, his predatory behavior, his vindictiveness, his hypnotic powers and shrinking ray, but he is a lot grittier. More willing to get his hands dirty, more brutal, sadistic yet we are also taken deeper into his craven cowardice more than ever. I preferred the look in the Deadly Assassin. I know it did limit the actors voice a little bit, but overall I think it was a lot more iconic and terrifying, though Geoffrey Beavers had an amazing voice.
2/ Delgado: He is at the top of most people's lists, but that is only because he was that brilliant. The part was actually written for him to be fair. Delgado had such a devilish charm, smoothness and great sense of humour. He could fool you into thinking he wasn't such a bad guy which made it all the more effective when he did something nasty like pushing Jo Grant into the air lock. He also had arguably the most genuinely complex personality of any incarnation,, with more fleshed out, interesting motivations that made you think at first that he was just a misguided character who wanted to change history like the monk to ultimately help, only to gradually see what a twisted, petty sociopath he was in stories like the Sea Devils. His relationship with the Doctor was also similarly more complex, having genuine malice, but also a grudging respect and insecurity over proving he was superior. The Delgado Master I find has lots of little moments that flesh out his character that aren't important to the story in a way that other versions don't have like in the Mind of Evil where we see his greatest fear is a giant Doctor laughing at him. Only problem with him is overuse, but most of his stories are at least watchable. A few are absolute classics.
3/ Ainley: I'll admit I was a bit unsure where to put him compared to my next choice. He has ,a very schizophrenic history with some classic stories, and some atrocious ones. Sadly Ainley himself can also waver between subtle, menacing and vicious, and silly, stupid, and one note. He definitely suffered from overuse, and unlike Delgado wasn't even always the main villain in every story he appeared in further making him feel more of a generic cartoon baddie. Still overall Ainley's version had a good grasp on the character in terms of core characterisation and developed it well from the previous versions. Also his highlights still represent some of the characters best stories with Survival probably being the best focus on the Doctor/Master relationship and Ainley giving possibly the best individual performance of anyone in the role. Their final showdown is without doubt the most iconic individual Master/Doctor fight in both series. For all their intellect and sophistication they both hate each other so much their final battle is still just them trying to clobber each other to death.
Survival also I think represents a more nuanced take on the character than people give him credit for. It's a Master who is taken over by a power that at first scares him. It brings out twisted urges even he is scared of, not out of any morality, but because he considered himself above such things. However as time goes on he embraces it because it strips away the last illusion of sanity he had left and he can become the monster he always was. He goes from more vulnerable and scared to more dangerous than ever.
4/ John Simm: This is another one I've gone back and forth on. Okay plus points, Simm is an excellent actor. Also this Master had the clearest arc of any version and therefore never fell into the trap that Ainley or yes, even Delgado did where the Master returns just for the sake of it, in a story that's not really right for him, but hey we need a big name villain. Simm's Master was always the focus, and each story moved his arc and characterisation on. More than any other Master he went through rapid changes, even just physically over the course of his three stories, but again the changes all felt natural like his more desperate state in The End of Time.
He was also a great tragic villain overall. Like Callisto, the Joker and Carnage, all of whom inspired him, he was a villain who you wavered between pitying and loathing as what he went through was so horrific, and the fact that it happened to himm when he was a child really just highlights how he never had a chance. At the same time what he does is just so obscene, your sympathy can only go so far and it really does make you think at one point does a poor soul stop being a poor soul? Also Simm benefits from being the main antagonist in what is New Who's best season and to be honest his arc is integrated more successfully into it. It's not just a word like Torchwood that has little meaning, but at the same time it's not too intrusive like the Silence arc in s6. Saxon bubbles away in the background, intriguing you, even having an influence on some episodes, but never taking them over until the end.
Negative points against him? His history is sadly spotty. He has three classic stories, Utopia (which he is only in at the end, though what an ending it is.) The Sound of Drums and World Enough and Time.
Last of the Time Lords is an absolute joke, though at least unlike Timeflight it's not boring, but yeah it's about as panto as DW ever got. (Literally the audience practically wishes the Doctor back to life.) End of Time sorry whilst Simm's bits and his ending is very good, I think it's dreary and too campy. Finally The Doctor Falls is good, but more for the Cybermen. Simm is shacked to Pissy Missy and turned into a bit of a joke asking Bill if he can borrow her knickers, and getting a stiffy at being threatened and he doesn't really do much either except annoy people and flee before the final showdown. To be honest he came over as an unintentional audience surrogate LOL. Apart from when he was being horrible to Bill (and I wanted to punch him for making Pearl Mackie cry LOL,) he seemed to sum up what I was thinking about the rest of the story. Telling Capaldi that pretentious and obnoxious be kind speech was bullshit, shooting Missy in disgust at what a shit character he'll become, and pointing out what a cuck the 12th Doctor had become that he was now embarrassed at having genitals. Simm was the hero we needed in that story.
Also it must be said that even a lot of the good things about Simm like his new tragic backstory do NOT work as a sequel to the classic era Master. Indeed they toss out the Masters entire arc from Delgado to Roberts. He works better as a reinvention, but since not everybody views him that way and indeed since he wasn't actually meant to be that, then I have to have Ainley above him as Ainley flowed better.
5/ Eric Roberts: I have nothing against this version of the Master. Furthermore I lose respect (only as a DW fan, not in real life LOL) for anyone who says he was the worst over Missy. In my opinion anyone who says that isn't being honest. They are just scared of being called a sexist or are politically biased. My answer? Go watch some female led things and maybe you won't think you have to support the worst female characters for representation. (PS Callisto is a female version of Simm's Master though she came first and is great unlike Missy.)
Anyway Roberts is a good actor, his performance was fine, his characterisation was spot on and I view the 96 movie as quite a good end to the arc begun in Delgado's time where we see the Master start out with big plans to reshape the universe in his own image, but become distracted by a petty vindictive feud with the Doctor, which along with other factors like losing his lives and being infected with the cheetah virus, turn him into a shell of his former self, with Roberts being on the level of an animal at times, though he is still underneath as sharp as ever.
My only points with Roberts is that he doesn't really bring much new to the role. He's kind of just a stop gap Master, even his story is very similar to the Deadly Assassin of opening the eye and prolonging his life.
6/ Sacha Dahwan: Not bad at all. He was a breath of fresh air after Missy. He looked the role more than Simm with his classic beard of evil and striking, more exotic looks. He also nailed the Masters petty hatred of the Doctor, and it was nice to see the TCE make a return (and have decent effects for a change.) However he was in literally the worst story, The Timeless Children and sadly will always be remembered for delivering a clunky bit of exposition that wrecked 60 years of history. Beyond that I think a problem with Dhawan also was that much like Roberts he didn't bring anything new to the part. He seemed to try and take a little bit of every actor to be fair. A bit of manipulation like Delgado, a bit of manic unpredictability like Simm, a bit of flamboyance like Ainley, and the pettiness of the burned Master. With a better script he could have been the Mark Hamill of Masters that blended them all together, but sadly with such poor stories that didn't even use the Master properly, then it just ended up being random moments from the others.
7/ Derek Jacobi: Brilliant actor and performance, however if we're being fair since he only had 2 mins I think he should be at the bottom. Ironically if he'd had longer he could have been the best and at least the single episode he is in, Utopia is one of the best stories to feature the Master. I'd say top 5 Master stories are The Deadly Assassin, Survival, Utopia, Frontier in Space and Five Doctors. Still at only two mins I'm afraid he has to be at the bottom.
I'm not going to include Missy as she was not an adaptation of the Master. She was Moff's dominatrix fantasy woman repackaged for the fourth time after River, Irene and Tasha Lem all of whom she shares the exact same story arc as. She's the worst in that list too by the way, as at least River was more likable and actually redeemable. (We didn't see the Doctor kiss River after she'd murdered a helpless fangirl and thrown the daughter of his oldest and dearest friend out of an airplane.) Irene was only in one story, and Tasha similarly wasn't obnoxious or thrust on us for 3 f*cking years.
What's your ranking?
