Post by burrunjor on Aug 14, 2024 14:43:12 GMT
Eager for some more New Who talk after I finished my rewatch of seasons 1-7 last week.
Which of the seasonal antagonists from seasons 1-7 do you think were the best.
The Emprah Dalek and his kin.
The Cult of Skaro.
The Cybusmen.
The Saxon Master.
Davros and the new Dalek Empire.
Rassilon. (Timothy Dalton.)
The Alliance
Madame Kovarian and the Silence.
The GI
Well this is very easy for me. I'd say that the Cult and the GI are the two best villains.
Overall I loved the Cult's story arc. They were actually one of the first things that got me into New Who. I was a classic era fanboy since before I can remember, but yeah I didn't like the Eccelston year and Tennant at first didn't win me over, but as a Dalek fanboy the Cult were so badass and so fascinating that I ended up getting into the story and actually for the first time cared about what would happen next when Sec escaped. It made me more open to New Who's style of having the villains be a bit more emotional, big public earth invasions, ongoing story arcs and I went into series 3 with a more open mind and loved it.
Of course that means I have them to blame for when New Who let me down in 2014 LOL, but still the Cult I think are not only a really cool concept, but have one of the best arcs of any villains. I LOVE seeing Sec go from this unstoppable, cocky badass who mows down Cybermen and humans alike to the desperate creature skulking in the sewers of Manhattan, struggling to survive, who eventually has an epiphany and is then turned on by his own people. Also his relationship with the Doctor is fascinating too. He went from his worst enemy, responsible for the worst tragedy since the Time War, to his ally and someone he called a great man, and finally someone who ended up sacrificing himself to save him.
Caan meanwhile has an even more varied arc. He goes from lackey, to Dalek purist who turns on his own leader, to insane prophet, to surprise hero all in the space of six episodes. Also again it's great watching Caan go through what he put Sec through from the other Daleks in Journey's End. Locked up, considered an abomination, a freak and a reject by his own people. It also shows you how disgusting the Daleks are that the guy who saved their entire race gets that treatment, with even Davros himself being appalled by it. However at the same time I like the way Caan is more wiley than Sec as he knows these assholes can't be redeemed because of what he and the others did to Sec, so he just destroys them.
The GI meanwhile has a short, but interesting story. It maybe could have had an extra episode, but even then he didn't outstay his welcome, all his episodes are really good and both actors who played him were excellent, though Richard E Grant really made the part his own. I only knock points off because he doesn't fit in with the classic version, BUT given the same is true of most New Who versions except for the Daleks, I won't hold it against him. I think that the modern GI in some ways was better than the original. I prefer the Yeti, but the modern GI was a lot scarier. As I've said in the other thread that bit where we find out he was manipulating that woman her entire life and the Whispermen, and the corpse rising from the pond are all greater moments of horror than anything in the classic era GI.
After these guys I'd rank the Simm Master, the Cybusmen, Davros and the season 1 Daleks at about the same level. All overall are good, threatening villains, all have some classic episodes, but all are let down in some way or another. They're a mixed bag.
Davros' new look and the actor playing him and how his relationship with the Daleks is handled are all fantastic, and I love his master plan. Sadly he is disposed of too easily (and by f*cking Donna and Mickey) also Journey's End itself is a cluster f*ck. The Simm Master, again great Callisto/Joker style tragic crazy villain, Simm is very good in the role, but he doesn't mesh with the classic era Master, started a bad trend where the attitude became "the classic era Master was lame, let's just do our own villain." Also whilst it might be enjoyable Last of the Time Lords is one of the worst stories of all time. The Cybusmen have a fantastic introduction, and the Next Doctor is an amazing episode, but they are sadly undermined in their own special season and made into the Cult's bitch boys. I think the Cult should have had their own story in season 2 that could have explained that's where the rip came from and then had the finale just be the Cybermen. Finally the season 1 Daleks, well I'm sorry to say they are hugely overrated.
Speaking as an insane Dalek fanboy from childhood ironically I remember being very unhappy with how they were portrayed this year. I didn't like a Dalek being an object of sympathy in its first story, or it bonding with the female companion. Also having them use Big Brother and the Weakest Link to take over the earth I thought was humiliating and ultimately I don't think the season 1 finale really did anything new with them at the time either. Invading the earth has been done to death, and them turning humans into Daleks had been done too. In fact ironically one of the things I was most pissed off with when I first saw the Eccelston series was how it handled the Daleks.
However in hindsight I can see the appeal of certain aspects of how they are used that year and there are some classic Doctor/Dalek moments, scary scenes like Lynda with a Y's death, the Emprah is really cool visually and in terms of his voice, and Dalek is a classic story overall that I really enjoyed on rewatch. Plus this also did introduce the Bronze Dalek look which ended up being arguably the most iconic look for the monsters alongside the grey look from the 70s (though to modern viewers it is the default Dalek design.)
Next up would be Rassilon and Madame Kovarian in that order. Both fairly bland, boring villains, but I'll give Rassilon a place above, as Timothy Dalton is much better and his relationship with the Master is pretty cool, with Simm's final showdown with him being the best part of The End of Time. Kovarian meanhile I don't think has anything to offer.
The Alliance would be at the bottom. I don't mind the idea of the villains teaming up. It's stupid and Saturday morning cartoon stuff, but hey I like Saturday morning cartoons. The cliff hanger for the Pandorica Opens was one of the best for the new series, but it just went nowhere in part 2. I remember being so f*cking annoyed when part 2 aired and the alliance were written out like that. All an alliance of the Doctors biggest enemies ended up doing was help Amy and Rory's relationship.
I will say though the Cyber attack in Pandorica Opens was cool too, but yeah they are the biggest disappointment out of the first seven years of the revival.
Which of the seasonal antagonists from seasons 1-7 do you think were the best.
The Emprah Dalek and his kin.
The Cult of Skaro.
The Cybusmen.
The Saxon Master.
Davros and the new Dalek Empire.
Rassilon. (Timothy Dalton.)
The Alliance
Madame Kovarian and the Silence.
The GI
Well this is very easy for me. I'd say that the Cult and the GI are the two best villains.
Overall I loved the Cult's story arc. They were actually one of the first things that got me into New Who. I was a classic era fanboy since before I can remember, but yeah I didn't like the Eccelston year and Tennant at first didn't win me over, but as a Dalek fanboy the Cult were so badass and so fascinating that I ended up getting into the story and actually for the first time cared about what would happen next when Sec escaped. It made me more open to New Who's style of having the villains be a bit more emotional, big public earth invasions, ongoing story arcs and I went into series 3 with a more open mind and loved it.
Of course that means I have them to blame for when New Who let me down in 2014 LOL, but still the Cult I think are not only a really cool concept, but have one of the best arcs of any villains. I LOVE seeing Sec go from this unstoppable, cocky badass who mows down Cybermen and humans alike to the desperate creature skulking in the sewers of Manhattan, struggling to survive, who eventually has an epiphany and is then turned on by his own people. Also his relationship with the Doctor is fascinating too. He went from his worst enemy, responsible for the worst tragedy since the Time War, to his ally and someone he called a great man, and finally someone who ended up sacrificing himself to save him.
Caan meanwhile has an even more varied arc. He goes from lackey, to Dalek purist who turns on his own leader, to insane prophet, to surprise hero all in the space of six episodes. Also again it's great watching Caan go through what he put Sec through from the other Daleks in Journey's End. Locked up, considered an abomination, a freak and a reject by his own people. It also shows you how disgusting the Daleks are that the guy who saved their entire race gets that treatment, with even Davros himself being appalled by it. However at the same time I like the way Caan is more wiley than Sec as he knows these assholes can't be redeemed because of what he and the others did to Sec, so he just destroys them.
The GI meanwhile has a short, but interesting story. It maybe could have had an extra episode, but even then he didn't outstay his welcome, all his episodes are really good and both actors who played him were excellent, though Richard E Grant really made the part his own. I only knock points off because he doesn't fit in with the classic version, BUT given the same is true of most New Who versions except for the Daleks, I won't hold it against him. I think that the modern GI in some ways was better than the original. I prefer the Yeti, but the modern GI was a lot scarier. As I've said in the other thread that bit where we find out he was manipulating that woman her entire life and the Whispermen, and the corpse rising from the pond are all greater moments of horror than anything in the classic era GI.
After these guys I'd rank the Simm Master, the Cybusmen, Davros and the season 1 Daleks at about the same level. All overall are good, threatening villains, all have some classic episodes, but all are let down in some way or another. They're a mixed bag.
Davros' new look and the actor playing him and how his relationship with the Daleks is handled are all fantastic, and I love his master plan. Sadly he is disposed of too easily (and by f*cking Donna and Mickey) also Journey's End itself is a cluster f*ck. The Simm Master, again great Callisto/Joker style tragic crazy villain, Simm is very good in the role, but he doesn't mesh with the classic era Master, started a bad trend where the attitude became "the classic era Master was lame, let's just do our own villain." Also whilst it might be enjoyable Last of the Time Lords is one of the worst stories of all time. The Cybusmen have a fantastic introduction, and the Next Doctor is an amazing episode, but they are sadly undermined in their own special season and made into the Cult's bitch boys. I think the Cult should have had their own story in season 2 that could have explained that's where the rip came from and then had the finale just be the Cybermen. Finally the season 1 Daleks, well I'm sorry to say they are hugely overrated.
Speaking as an insane Dalek fanboy from childhood ironically I remember being very unhappy with how they were portrayed this year. I didn't like a Dalek being an object of sympathy in its first story, or it bonding with the female companion. Also having them use Big Brother and the Weakest Link to take over the earth I thought was humiliating and ultimately I don't think the season 1 finale really did anything new with them at the time either. Invading the earth has been done to death, and them turning humans into Daleks had been done too. In fact ironically one of the things I was most pissed off with when I first saw the Eccelston series was how it handled the Daleks.
However in hindsight I can see the appeal of certain aspects of how they are used that year and there are some classic Doctor/Dalek moments, scary scenes like Lynda with a Y's death, the Emprah is really cool visually and in terms of his voice, and Dalek is a classic story overall that I really enjoyed on rewatch. Plus this also did introduce the Bronze Dalek look which ended up being arguably the most iconic look for the monsters alongside the grey look from the 70s (though to modern viewers it is the default Dalek design.)
Next up would be Rassilon and Madame Kovarian in that order. Both fairly bland, boring villains, but I'll give Rassilon a place above, as Timothy Dalton is much better and his relationship with the Master is pretty cool, with Simm's final showdown with him being the best part of The End of Time. Kovarian meanhile I don't think has anything to offer.
The Alliance would be at the bottom. I don't mind the idea of the villains teaming up. It's stupid and Saturday morning cartoon stuff, but hey I like Saturday morning cartoons. The cliff hanger for the Pandorica Opens was one of the best for the new series, but it just went nowhere in part 2. I remember being so f*cking annoyed when part 2 aired and the alliance were written out like that. All an alliance of the Doctors biggest enemies ended up doing was help Amy and Rory's relationship.
I will say though the Cyber attack in Pandorica Opens was cool too, but yeah they are the biggest disappointment out of the first seven years of the revival.
