Should Doomsday have been Dalek-free?

[Cherry Pepsi Maxil]

Army of Ghosts has Cyberman story written all over it, but once the Daleks spring into action in Doomsday the whole thing changes into a self indulgent Dalek fanboy dream where the Cybermen are about as useless as they've ever been. It almost feels like Russell had a mate who used to tease him about the Cybermen being cooler than the Daleks so he decided to get revenge by giving us the most one sided battle in television history.  For the record, I find this story incredibly fun and watchable but I would have rather Mickey be right about what's in the sphere - a Cyber King or something of that nature rather than the Cult of Skaro (as much as they're a good addition). 

I think it was Burrunjor that noted that the Daleks got two finales to themselves as well as the Master (if you count End of Time) but it seems as if Russell doesn't rate the Cybermen enough to let them carry this finale. 

[burrunjor]

Aug 8, 2024 16:33:39 GMT Cherry Pepsi Maxil said:

Army of Ghosts has Cyberman story written all over it, but once the Daleks spring into action in Doomsday the whole thing changes into a self indulgent Dalek fanboy dream where the Cybermen are about as useless as they've ever been. It almost feels like Russell had a mate who used to tease him about the Cybermen being cooler than the Daleks so he decided to get revenge by giving us the most one sided battle in television history.  For the record, I find this story incredibly fun and watchable but I would have rather Mickey be right about what's in the sphere - a Cyber King or something of that nature rather than the Cult of Skaro (as much as they're a good addition). 

I think it was Burrunjor that noted that the Daleks got two finales to themselves as well as the Master (if you count End of Time) but it seems as if Russell doesn't rate the Cybermen enough to let them carry this finale. 

Haha yes it was me. 

I agree. It was really the Cybermen's time to shine. I think the Cult should have been introduced in season 2 as I like seeing Sec go from kickass Dalek commander to a shell of his former self, but no the Cybermen shouldn't have been made into punching bags to do that. I think we'd all have rather had a Dalek two parter than Love and Monsters and Fear Hear.

This is an issue that affects so many crossover stories. Basically one writer can't be a professional about it and will descend into being the worst kind of fanboy who shows 0 respect to the source material. To be fair the Cybermen didn't get it the worst. Lex Luthor has been undermined by the Joker in every possible way, the Alien went from threatening monster in its own right to the Predators bitch boy, and the Borg would be undermined by the Cybermen in the 2011 crossover comic. 



You're also right that Doomsday doesn't really work as much of a Dalek story. They really only appear in the second part and they are beyond the neat Cult of Skaro idea just another threat. The whole story is set up for the Cybermen and really it should have been their chance to shine. (Also I think it would have been nice to have them be the ones who separated the Doctor and Rose. The Daleks already got to be responsible for the death of his people, the Cybermen should have been given a chance to inflict a big tragedy to again really hammer home they are a big deal to then modern viewers.)

[rushy]

I disagree. Having the Daleks there raised the stakes and besides, having the two of them properly encounter each other is like the one thing that makes that story somewhat iconic to this day.

[burrunjor]

Aug 8, 2024 17:19:08 GMT rushy said:

I disagree. Having the Daleks there raised the stakes and besides, having the two of them properly encounter each other is like the one thing that makes that story somewhat iconic to this day.

I can see the appeal of that, but the Cybermen are shat on so badly I'm not sure it's worth it. Also I argue that losing Rose would have been enough for it to be memorable. 

[rushy]

but shitting on Cybermen is a tradition

[burrunjor]

Aug 8, 2024 17:25:16 GMT rushy said:

but shitting on Cybermen is a tradition

Not a good one in my view. They are fantastic antagonists who should get more respect. (Spoken as a gigantic Dalek fanboy, biggest here I'd say after Ludders.) 

I will give you though Rushy Terrance Dicks was by far the biggest asshole to the Cybermen. At least with Russell he just let his love for the Daleks get the better of him. Being a fanboy first is more understandable and as we've seen with other franchises a common phenomenon when it comes to villain and sometimes even hero fights. 

Dicks however lived up to his last name. Due to his dislike of Kit Pedler he banned them from the Pertwee era and had his own creations kick the shit out of them in The Five Doctors. His dislike of Pedler was also really elitist and petty. He felt Pedler who wanted more say over the Invasion as it starred his creations had no business being a writer as he was just a Doctor and even said he should have known his place as only being good for a few ideas, but having nothing to contribute story wise. 

I suppose Pedler had the last laugh in that he ended up having a bigger career as a writer outside of DW, with Doomwatch that he co-created being another huge hit. 

[rushy]

He's not entirely wrong about Pedler though. Pedler was a great ideas guy, but most of his Dr Who stories require an immense suspension of disbelief. He had bags of sugar and a tea tray block out the vacuum of space lol.

I think one could easily chalk up Terrance's attitude to being prideful about his own profession.

[Cherry Pepsi Maxil]

Aug 8, 2024 17:25:16 GMT rushy said:

but shitting on Cybermen is a tradition

I'm not sure why Russell wanted to continue a flawed tradition like that. Rise of the Cybermen did so well at making them scary (I had way more nightmares about them than the Dakeks) for a modern audience only for them to be mere cannon fodder in Doomsday. I don't think the Cybermen were ever respected again after that. Look at some of the shit they've been shoehorned into since 2014.

[Cherry Pepsi Maxil]

And I don't think Nemesis completely craps over them. They merciless eradicate a paramilitary group with ease and then murder those two chaps. They do a lot more in Nemesis than they do in the Five Doctors.

[Ludders II]

1) It's a total fanwank idea that I would've loved when I was 9 or 10 years old. (the idea, not the way it was done)

2) 10 year old me, would've had a more serious, pitched battle between the Daleks and the Cybermen. As a Dalek fan in particular, they would've won in the end, but not so easily, and a large portion of the Cybermen would escape to fight again.
But this is just a boy doing crappy 2D pencil drawings on a sketchpad. Not an actual adult (supposedly) writer (allegedly) trying to inject snappy, bitchfest dialogue into Science Fiction.

3) I do think the cliffhanger work well, I must admit. The Daleks arriving in the genesis ark was a completely unexpected surprise. On the other hand, the stamping, tin soldiers on the parade ground Cybusmen are wank anyway, so they deserve to be ridiculed. 

4) The Daleks largely managed to retain their cool under RTD1. It started getting a bit dubious with Dalek Caan, and then adding totally unnecessary, great chunks of bolted on gold hardware that seemingly served no purpose, and looked utterly shit, to the Dalek Supreme. Lord knows what RTD2 would do to them. Although the Daleks are genderless  and have no concept of it, he'd probably introduce the first female presenting Dalek. 

[burrunjor]

Aug 9, 2024 0:54:40 GMT Ludders II said:

1) It's a total fanwank idea that I would've loved when I was 9 or 10 years old. (the idea, not the way it was done)

2) 10 year old me, would've had a more serious, pitched battle between the Daleks and the Cybermen. As a Dalek fan in particular, they would've won in the end, but not so easily, and a large portion of the Cybermen would escape to fight again.
But this is just a boy doing crappy 2D pencil drawings on a sketchpad. Not an actual adult (supposedly) writer (allegedly) trying to inject snappy, bitchfest dialogue into Science Fiction.

3) I do think the cliffhanger work well, I must admit. The Daleks arriving in the genesis ark was a completely unexpected surprise. On the other hand, the stamping, tin soldiers on the parade ground Cybusmen are wank anyway, so they deserve to be ridiculed. 

4) The Daleks largely managed to retain their cool under RTD1. It started getting a bit dubious with Dalek Caan, and then adding totally unnecessary, great chunks of bolted on gold hardware that seemingly served no purpose, and looked utterly shit, to the Dalek Supreme. Lord knows what RTD2 would do to them. Although the Daleks are genderless  and have no concept of it, he'd probably introduce the first female presenting Dalek. 

The Daleks were brilliant in the RTD 1 era. A perfect reinvention in all honesty. It managed to do something new with them, turning them into more Lovecraftian horrors whilst not changing them to the point where they no longer seemed like Daleks anymore, unlike Missy or the Cybusmen. 

However sadly since 2015 the Daleks have been a total joke in New Who. 

On the one hand they've done the worst of the 70s and the 60s and 00s by having them appear too frequently (though I disagree actually with that criticism personally and have 0 objection to multiple Dalek adventures for a few years, but still that's what plenty of people do think about those eras and it applies to this period too.) 

At the same time however they've done the worst of the 80s where they were pushed to the background in favour of other foes, they don't seem like major enemies anymore. Like the 80s they haven't been a part of any major arcs, indeed other villains have taken their place like the Master killing the Time Lords now, they also haven't inflicted any big tragedies on the Doctor with the Cybermen killing the 12th Doctor for instance. There's nothing to make them stand out in terms of power either, or even importance to the Doctor. Someone who started with this era would have 0 clue as to why the Daleks are his archenemies. 

On top of that unlike the 80s where there was at least an expansion in Dalek lore and an ongoing arc with them, there's nothing like that here. Indeed Dalek lore has been undermined in many ways like revealing they always had a concept of mercy, or that Davros is able bodied etc.

Finally on top of all that the monsters have also been turned into punching bags for other villains again and again. 

Season 9 finale, a Dalek has been enslaved by the Time Lords weapon. 

Season 10 opener, a Dalek is vaporized by the water girl who is completely immune to its fire power. 

the Flux story, the Sontarans and the Flux wipe them out. Seriously Chibnall, you're going to undermine the Daleks for the Sontarans? I mean I love the Sontarans don't get me wrong, but they are fairly minor foes. That's like doing a Batman story where the Ventriloquist kicks the absolute shit out of and humbles the Joker? 

Then they are reduced to being the Masters lackeys who are happy to share the planet with the Cybermen in Jodie's finale. Seriously is nobody going to point out how stupid that is? My friend the late John The White said that the alliance of villains in that story made about as much sense as the alliance of villains in the Lego Batman film and he's not wrong.  

Then after that they are wiped out by Sutekh off screen with Mel feeling sorry for them being wiped out so easily. I mean really you only have to look at how companions like Rose, Jack and Martha viewed the Daleks in comparison. They were all absolutely terrified of them, had history with them, with Jack having been killed by them, Rose becoming the bad wolf. Companions since 2015's attitude to them meanwhile? Bill laughs at how stupid she thinks they look, Graham feels he can take them on his own, Ace even looks forward to fighting them again, and Ruby who never met them and only knows about them as victims of Sutekh whilst Mel again feels sorry for them. 

Huge, huge come down even in New Who, never mind old who canon. 

Also their stories have been bollocks too LOL. I don't think there is a single bad Dalek story up until that Missy two parter on Skaro. Sure some are better than others, but they had the best track record in old and new who, where all of their stories were at least enjoyable and at least had some cool ideas, but sadly that story is genuinely bad. It has cool visuals sure, but that's it and things have been shit ever since. 

[Cherry Pepsi Maxil]

Aug 9, 2024 0:54:40 GMT Ludders II said:

1) It's a total fanwank idea that I would've loved when I was 9 or 10 years old. (the idea, not the way it was done)

2) 10 year old me, would've had a more serious, pitched battle between the Daleks and the Cybermen. As a Dalek fan in particular, they would've won in the end, but not so easily, and a large portion of the Cybermen would escape to fight again.
But this is just a boy doing crappy 2D pencil drawings on a sketchpad. Not an actual adult (supposedly) writer (allegedly) trying to inject snappy, bitchfest dialogue into Science Fiction.

3) I do think the cliffhanger work well, I must admit. The Daleks arriving in the genesis ark was a completely unexpected surprise. On the other hand, the stamping, tin soldiers on the parade ground Cybusmen are wank anyway, so they deserve to be ridiculed. 

4) The Daleks largely managed to retain their cool under RTD1. It started getting a bit dubious with Dalek Caan, and then adding totally unnecessary, great chunks of bolted on gold hardware that seemingly served no purpose, and looked utterly shit, to the Dalek Supreme. Lord knows what RTD2 would do to them. Although the Daleks are genderless  and have no concept of it, he'd probably introduce the first female presenting Dalek. 

The Daleks being in the story at all would have been a great surprise if it wasn't for the fact that the next time trailer at the end of "Fear Her" showed a woman getting exterminated. They showed the Daleks at the end of the "next time" trailer of "Bad Wolf" too.  

[Ludders II]

Aug 9, 2024 17:32:02 GMT Cherry Pepsi Maxil said:

Aug 9, 2024 0:54:40 GMT Ludders II said:

1) It's a total fanwank idea that I would've loved when I was 9 or 10 years old. (the idea, not the way it was done)

2) 10 year old me, would've had a more serious, pitched battle between the Daleks and the Cybermen. As a Dalek fan in particular, they would've won in the end, but not so easily, and a large portion of the Cybermen would escape to fight again.
But this is just a boy doing crappy 2D pencil drawings on a sketchpad. Not an actual adult (supposedly) writer (allegedly) trying to inject snappy, bitchfest dialogue into Science Fiction.

3) I do think the cliffhanger work well, I must admit. The Daleks arriving in the genesis ark was a completely unexpected surprise. On the other hand, the stamping, tin soldiers on the parade ground Cybusmen are wank anyway, so they deserve to be ridiculed. 

4) The Daleks largely managed to retain their cool under RTD1. It started getting a bit dubious with Dalek Caan, and then adding totally unnecessary, great chunks of bolted on gold hardware that seemingly served no purpose, and looked utterly shit, to the Dalek Supreme. Lord knows what RTD2 would do to them. Although the Daleks are genderless  and have no concept of it, he'd probably introduce the first female presenting Dalek. 

The Daleks being in the story at all would have been a great surprise if it wasn't for the fact that the next time trailer at the end of "Fear Her" showed a woman getting exterminated. They showed the Daleks at the end of the "next time" trailer of "Bad Wolf" too.  

You obviously payed closer attention than me. 😁