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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2021 14:57:14 GMT
Season 21 is my favourite of the two and by some distance too. There aren't any bad stories really. Even though I consider Caves a bit overrated, I do still rate it as a classic. It's probably the best regeneration story ever. Resurrection is easily my favourite of the lot and in my top five stories. Warriors is also a lot of fun as is Frontios. Twin Dilemma is a fairly entertaining romp and The Awakening is a lovely story. I suppose Planet of Fire is the weakest of the bunch, but the Master and the setting more than make up for the lesser elements. Season 22 I've lost much love for other the years. Attack I don't rate at all and I loathe Varos with a passion. Mark of the Rani is enjoyable for the wonderful Kate O'Mara, but The Two Doctors is bloated and slow. Timelash is a fun B-movie style adventure though and one that I have a lot of time for. Revelation is fine, but the weakest Dalek story of the 1980s.
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Post by mott1 on Apr 7, 2021 15:05:05 GMT
This is a tough one...
I went for 22, the reason being that although it is wildly uneven in terms of quality (As was 21) it has a more consistent tone to it. Even tho I don't quite put even Revelation on the same level of Caves it's a brilliant, unique tale and I also rate the likes of The Two Doctors higher than many.
And I agree on Planet Of Fire. An oddly overrated, drawn-out tale - yet more Master mayhem - and totally overshadowed by its illustrious successor.
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Post by Brian MK.II on Apr 7, 2021 15:37:55 GMT
S22. It feels like they got the right balance of a darker tone with lashings of comic humor, mostly contributed by Colin's cocky anti-hero and the sparring dynamic with him and Peri. Even the weaker episodes like Timelash and Attack are rather enjoyable although I find MOTR a slog nowadays. The only snag with the season is Revelation and Attack aside, they seemed to have picked the most uninspired directors for everything else.
S21 feels like a move into the right direction after the dryness of S18-20 but at times it can be a bit too dreary with Davison's Doctor compared to Colin above. Although I like his more harder, take no s**t personality here and I like how we got more scenes of him telling Tegan to shut the hell up and generally standing up to her.
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Post by iank on Apr 7, 2021 20:48:15 GMT
21 is ok, but 22 is vastly superior.
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Post by RobFilth on Apr 8, 2021 10:29:36 GMT
This is really difficult one for me to evaluate.
Season 21 is better in terms of hitting higher highs than Season 22 but it also hits lower lows also.
In Season 21, I think "The Awakening", "Resurrection Of The Daleks" and "Caves of Androzani" are all bona fide classics.
In Season 22 the classics are "Attack Of The Cybermen", "The Two Doctors" and "Revelation Of The Daleks".
So whilst Season 22 has more classic content, it doesn't feel quite as tight as Season 21's classic content, for example some of the direction in "The Two Doctors" seems very flat and pedestrian, there isn't a huge amount of Dalek action in "Revelation" and some of "Attack" feels a bit disjointed.
However, when you look at the turkeys of each Season, "Warriors Of The Deep" and "Twin Dilemma" in Season 21 and "Vengeance On Varos" and "Timelash" in Season 22, then Season 22 comes across far more favorably to Season 21.
Then there's the regular cast: In Season 21 Peter Davison finally finds a bit of self-confidence and flexes some muscles, although "Warriors Of The Deep" is a turkey, Davisons desperate performance in it whilst the whole production is falling down around his ears is commendable. Tegan has the best bowing out story since probably Sarah Jane Smith, Turlough has a bit of pedestrian end story after hanging round like a spare lemon for several stories, but the loose ends are tied up nicely enough and Peri is easy on the eye even if she is a bit like a whining american brat. All in all, Season 21 is yet another typical turbulent Davison cast change around season.
Season 22 however does benefit from a regular cast and The Doctor and Peris characterizations do develop nicely throughout it, even if they do seem to regress slightly in some scenes in "Timelash". The bickering married couple act they foster does have its genuinely amusing moments from time to time. It just feels more tightly knit on that front, and Colins Doctor makes for a far more complex and interesting character, more pro-active than Davisons also.
Do you know what? I honestly don't know which one is the best.
I like both seasons and think they are both comparable to a mid Letts/Dicks period, at their heights they both have the odd Hinchcliffe comparable story, and at their worst have trashy turkeys comparable to the likes of "Monster Of Peladon" or "Time Monster". Mid-range stories such as "Mark Of The Rani" or "Frontios" I feel could have just as easily come from the mid-late Pertwee era.
For me personally, both Seasons represent one of the most interesting periods in the JNT era for naturalistic narrative flow development, I would have been fascinated to have seen where the originally planned Season 23 would have gone, unfortunately all development after Season 22 felt clumsily crowbarred in and forced and highly un-naturalistic thanks to Grades hiatus and Powells remit which sucked all confidence out of the programme.
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Post by burrunjor on Apr 8, 2021 11:01:33 GMT
This is a very hard one for me to choose. I think both demonstrate the failings and strengths of Eric Saward as a script editor and JNT as a producer perfectly.
Both seasons benefit from the following things.
Darker and bolder stories like Resurrection, Revelation, Attack, Varos, Caves etc, all of which are almost like live action 2000 AD comics. Far from being outdated, a lot of 80s Who reflects the era perfectly, but not in a way where it is dated.
Both also however suffer from Saward pushing the Doctor to the side, JNT being self indulgent (like Colin's costume) and nobody pulling him up for it, and also JNT not knowing the limits of the show, production wise and doing things that the budget wouldn't allow.
As a result what we get is a very mixed bag of some of the boldest, most creative and interesting stories in the entire history of the show, and some of the biggest misfires.
Timelash, Warriors, Twin Dilemma are among the biggest turkeys in the entire history of Doctor Who.
Overall I'd rank them the same. The faults of both seasons however absolutely do get exaggerated by fans who want to blame JNT for the cancellation. Really I'd say both seasons are comparable in terms of quality to Tom Bakers first, which isn't perfect but has some stand outs. Difference is the show wasn't unfairly axed in Tom's first so people only focus on the good things like Genesis being a step in the right direction
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Post by RobFilth on Apr 8, 2021 11:21:25 GMT
Timelash, Warriors, Twin Dilemma are among the biggest turkeys in the entire history of Doctor Who. I honestly don't think they're any worse than the likes of "Horns Of The Nimon", "Armageddon Factor" and certainly less dull than stories like "Underworld" or "Four To Doomsday" or even "Monster of Peladon". They're undeniably bottom of the barrel type stuff, but to say they're the outright worst ever content produced within the Classic era as some sections of fandom does just shows a profound ignorance of the whole series history. Damn, personally I'd take re-watching any of those 80's stinkers to "The Web Planet" or "Space Pirates" any day of the week. |
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Post by burrunjor on Apr 8, 2021 11:29:40 GMT
Timelash, Warriors, Twin Dilemma are among the biggest turkeys in the entire history of Doctor Who. I honestly don't think they're any worse than the likes of "Horns Of The Nimon", "Armageddon Factor" and certainly less dull than stories like "Underworld" or "Four To Doomsday" or even "Monster of Peladon". They're undeniably bottom of the barrel type stuff, but to say they're the outright worst ever content produced within the Classic era as some sections of fandom does just shows a profound ignorance of the whole series history. Damn, personally I'd take re-watching any of those 80's stinkers to "The Web Planet" or "Space Pirates" any day of the week. Well it's hard to say what you mean by bad? The Web Planet is atrocious, and more of a chore to sit through simply by virtue of being longer. However it is arguably less embarrassing than Timelash. Timelash has the Doctor more or less pimping Peri out to the evil Lizard man! "If she doesn't scream the wedding can take place." That is cringe personified. Similarly the Web Planet is the 60s, whilst Warriors is the 80s. You can forgive producers at the start for not knowing the shows limitations budget wise, but by the 80s? Also a lot of the terrible monsters in that period aren't simply isolated incidents like Invasion of the Dinosaurs. (That only happened because Barry Letts was basically suckered by a con man.) Every other week almost with JNT however at that point had a laughably bad monster that could have been realized differently, or that the story didn't even need to have. The Myrka, the Tractators, the monster in Caves, the Slug men in Twin Dilemma, the Mara in Kinda all absurd monsters that should never have been made. |
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Post by RobFilth on Apr 8, 2021 11:47:32 GMT
However it is arguably less embarrassing than Timelash. Timelash has the Doctor more or less pimping Peri out to the evil Lizard man! "If she doesn't scream the wedding can take place." That is cringe personified. Hmm, I'm not sure, dialogue like "Zaaaaaarbee! Zaaaaaarbee! Zaaaaarbeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!" certainly has me diving behind the sofa with embarrassment! Or indeed the Opteras hopping around failed attempts to fly like Menoptera at the end of episode 6. Timelash does have an exploitative b-movie quality schlock to it however. Yes, its cheapo crap but is reveling in it's crudness rather than actually attempting to be something more than it isn't.(which is what Warriors Of The Deep was desperately trying to achieve) Similarly the Web Planet is the 60s, whilst Warriors is the 80s. You can forgive producers at the start for not knowing the shows limitations budget wise, but by the 80s? Also a lot of the terrible monsters in that period aren't simply isolated incidents like Invasion of the Dinosaurs. (That only happened because Barry Letts was basically suckered by a con man.) Every other week almost with JNT however at that point had a laughably bad monster that could have been realized differently, or that the story didn't even need to have. The Myrka, the Tractators, the monster in Caves, the Slug men in Twin Dilemma, the Mara in Kinda all absurd monsters that should never have been made. There have always been bad monsters in Doctor Who though, for every successful realization there are 5 bad ones. The Tara Wood Beast or The gurgling stocking over the head wearing Shadow weren't really any better than those 80's disasters. |
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Post by burrunjor on Apr 8, 2021 12:08:34 GMT
However it is arguably less embarrassing than Timelash. Timelash has the Doctor more or less pimping Peri out to the evil Lizard man! "If she doesn't scream the wedding can take place." That is cringe personified. Hmm, I'm not sure, dialogue like "Zaaaaaarbee! Zaaaaaarbee! Zaaaaarbeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!" certainly has me diving behind the sofa with embarrassment! Or indeed the Opteras hopping around failed attempts to fly like Menoptera at the end of episode 6. Timelash does have an exploitative b-movie quality schlock to it however. Yes, its cheapo crap but is reveling in it's crudness rather than actually attempting to be something more than it isn't.(which is what Warriors Of The Deep was desperately trying to achieve) Similarly the Web Planet is the 60s, whilst Warriors is the 80s. You can forgive producers at the start for not knowing the shows limitations budget wise, but by the 80s? Also a lot of the terrible monsters in that period aren't simply isolated incidents like Invasion of the Dinosaurs. (That only happened because Barry Letts was basically suckered by a con man.) Every other week almost with JNT however at that point had a laughably bad monster that could have been realized differently, or that the story didn't even need to have. The Myrka, the Tractators, the monster in Caves, the Slug men in Twin Dilemma, the Mara in Kinda all absurd monsters that should never have been made. There have always been bad monsters in Doctor Who though, for every successful realization there are 5 bad ones. The Tara Wood Beast or The gurgling stocking over the head wearing Shadow weren't really any better than those 80's disasters. Still not as bad as turning Peri into a mail order bride for a pervy Lizard man LOL. At least the Zarbi were quite cute LOL. Again though the Web Planet is utterly atrocious, but since it is from so much longer ago, and so creaky, going into it, it is a bit more excusable. It can come over as a failed experiment and early installment weirdness. Also I don't think a lot of monsters in the classic era were that bad. Yes some of them have aged poorly, but lets not forget a lot of designs from the Classic era are still being used 60 years on. Daleks, Cybermen, Ice Warriors, Sontarans, Davros, TARDIS interior etc. Others like the Drashiggs, the Silurians, the Ogrons, the Yeti, Magnus Greel, Sutekh, Morbius, the Krynoids, the Exillons, the Axons, the Primords, Azal, the Draconians, the Anti Matter man, the Zygons are all fabulously well done and still hold up to this day as much as any Buffy or modern genre series monster. Indeed I'd say they are still better done than most monsters on tv. The likes of Star Trek TOS, Space 1999, or even more recent shows like Charmed, and Supernatural have far poorer monsters or aliens in them. They often don't even try and just make them look human. Others like the Autons and the Rills meanwhile were a clever way of doing something creepy with a low budget. Others like the Monoids, the Quarks etc are not great, but fairly standard for the time. It's when you get to the late 70s, early 80s however and the pressure of Star Wars starts to get to the makers of the show and they start to do these ridiculous effects spectacles that just fall flat on their arse, that DW starts to look clunky and out of date. The Myrka, the Mara etc. These are actually worse effects wise than most of the 60s monsters. The Dinosaurs were worse, but that was at least a one off. 80s era Who sadly was the sloppiest production wise. |
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Post by UncleDeadly on Apr 8, 2021 14:25:12 GMT
However it is arguably less embarrassing than Timelash. Timelash has the Doctor more or less pimping Peri out to the evil Lizard man! "If she doesn't scream the wedding can take place." That is cringe personified. Don't, for goodness' sake, take everything the Sixth Doctor says literally... 
Timelash has its problems, but the Doctor "Pimping Peri out to the Lizard man" isn't one of them.
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Post by UncleDeadly on Apr 8, 2021 14:28:37 GMT
However, when you look at the turkeys of each Season, "Warriors Of The Deep" and "Twin Dilemma" in Season 21 and "Vengeance On Varos" and "Timelash" in Season 22, then Season 22 comes across far more favorably to Season 21. Varos is a turkey...?
As far as i'm concerned, if pushed, the weakest links of Season 22 would have to be Timelash and Mark of the Rani.
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Post by RobFilth on Apr 8, 2021 15:07:51 GMT
However, when you look at the turkeys of each Season, "Warriors Of The Deep" and "Twin Dilemma" in Season 21 and "Vengeance On Varos" and "Timelash" in Season 22, then Season 22 comes across far more favorably to Season 21. Varos is a turkey...? As far as i'm concerned, if pushed, the weakest links of Season 22 would have to be Timelash and Mark of the Rani.
Script-wise Varos is very good, but production-wise is poor. Crappy flatter than a pancake direction, largely bland and cheap looking sets, and there's the occasional bit of wooden acting from the supporting cast. The two mile an hour go karts the Varos guards traverse down barely manoeuvrable tight cheapie tunnels with are unbelievably rubbish. Perhaps "turkey" wasn't the right word and what I meant was"cheapy" Mark of the Rani certainly has a less cerebral and more pedestrian script to Varos, but it's one hell of a sight better looking and directed. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2021 15:16:36 GMT
I honestly don't think they're any worse than the likes of "Horns Of The Nimon", "Armageddon Factor" and certainly less dull than stories like "Underworld" or "Four To Doomsday" or even "Monster of Peladon". They're undeniably bottom of the barrel type stuff, but to say they're the outright worst ever content produced within the Classic era as some sections of fandom does just shows a profound ignorance of the whole series history. Damn, personally I'd take re-watching any of those 80's stinkers to "The Web Planet" or "Space Pirates" any day of the week. Well it's hard to say what you mean by bad? The Web Planet is atrocious, and more of a chore to sit through simply by virtue of being longer. However it is arguably less embarrassing than Timelash. Timelash has the Doctor more or less pimping Peri out to the evil Lizard man! "If she doesn't scream the wedding can take place." That is cringe personified. Similarly the Web Planet is the 60s, whilst Warriors is the 80s. You can forgive producers at the start for not knowing the shows limitations budget wise, but by the 80s? Also a lot of the terrible monsters in that period aren't simply isolated incidents like Invasion of the Dinosaurs. (That only happened because Barry Letts was basically suckered by a con man.) Every other week almost with JNT however at that point had a laughably bad monster that could have been realized differently, or that the story didn't even need to have. The Myrka, the Tractators, the monster in Caves, the Slug men in Twin Dilemma, the Mara in Kinda all absurd monsters that should never have been made. I suggest you log out of Burrunjor's account immediately, Sadako. |
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Post by mott1 on Apr 8, 2021 15:16:56 GMT
Varos is a turkey...? As far as i'm concerned, if pushed, the weakest links of Season 22 would have to be Timelash and Mark of the Rani.
Script-wise Varos is very good, but production-wise is poor. Crappy flatter than a pancake direction, largely bland and cheap looking sets, and there's the occasional bit of wooden acting from the supporting cast. The two mile an hour go karts the Varos guards traverse down barely manoeuvrable tight cheapie tunnels with are unbelievably rubbish. Perhaps "turkey" wasn't the right word and what I meant was"cheapy" Mark of the Rani certainly has a less cerebral and more pedestrian script to Varos, but it's one hell of a sight better looking and directed. Yes it's a bummer Jason Connery had to be in Vengeance, and he was no better in those Harry Palmer films. It's a shame his Dad didn't take him to one side and say, "I'm not sshure you're an actor, my sshon!" |
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