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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2024 17:04:10 GMT
Wonder if, in 43 years time, people will be going "Yeah, remember "Space Babies"? - that was f'ing amazing..." Spoilers. No. No they won't. To be fair, 43 years on and no one's saying that Leisure Hive was f'ing amazing |
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Post by megalomaniacal on Jul 16, 2024 18:03:33 GMT
Wonder if, in 43 years time, people will be going "Yeah, remember "Space Babies"? - that was f'ing amazing..." Spoilers. No. No they won't. To be fair, 43 years on and no one's saying that Leisure Hive was f'ing amazing Not amazing, but memorable for the good reasons (ep1 cliffhanger, old Tom, nice soundtrack...) |
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Post by burrunjor on Jul 16, 2024 18:55:24 GMT
Wonder if, in 43 years time, people will be going "Yeah, remember "Space Babies"? - that was f'ing amazing..." Spoilers. No. No they won't. To be fair, 43 years on and no one's saying that Leisure Hive was f'ing amazing Actually you're posting on a forum named after it LOL. I do agree though the Leisure Hive is absolute f*cking bullshit. Tried watching it again last year I think for the first time in decades and it almost put me to sleep. Dire, boring, badly done, dreadful excuse for a story. No wonder it saw the biggest drop off from the previous year in the shows history when that was what opened it. I do think New Who will last, I mean it already has when you consider how old the Eccelston adventures are. However I don't think it's legacy is, or will be as strong as the original because again it f*cked itself up. Never mind in relation to old who, all of new who's own stories are completely undermined or destroyed by the Capaldi, Jodie and Ncuti eras.. The Doctor can turn gay and change sex during a regeneration? LOL so that means that Eccelston could have morphed into Paloma Faith and wanted to shag Mickey instead? Kind of undermines the whole Rose being someone the Doctor loves doesn't it? Also Gallifrey is back, that's redeemed the Doctors people, oh no wait Master killed them again. The Doctor is the last of the time lords for the second time. Oh well don't worry he wasn't a time lord anyway so all those moments in stories like Dalek, Last of the Time Lords, Gridlock where he was mournful of his own people and the world he grew up on, turns out it was stockholm syndrome as they were his abusers and torturers. What's that 4 years of building up "21st century is when everything changes." Oh no wait it's not, well we have to do that to make sure that the status quo is maintained, oh but don't worry we'll have a big public invasion with the Cybermen and Missy and never bother to explain why Bill doesn't know them after and we'll have the entire world invaded in Flux and never bother to explain why people don't know after and have Sutekh kill everyone and never bother to undo it after, because who cares, so we undid those 4 years for nothing. What's that the Doctor has no regenerations and that's a big moment where his people finally forgive him to celebrate 50 years, oh no don't worry he actually had an infinite number and was never in any danger, in fact by not regenerating he put that town through centuries of war with the Daleks. The Daleks are the most dangerous monsters to the extent that if they rebuild the multiverse is in danger? Oh no don't worry they're back and they are doofuses who we will turn into punching backs for every villain we want to make look cool and badass. You get the general idea. As much as I'm enjoying myself on my new who rewatch, I don't deny that in the back of my mind there is a "what a shame it all goes to shit." Which there wasn't with classic who. Yes there were episodes and even seasons that were atrocious like Trial of a Time Lord. However again none of these stories actively smashed up what came before. For instance the UNIT story that goes on from Troughton to Baker may just come to a stop, but it isn't actively erased. (Don't give me the dating controversy as that's not the same thing. That's a simple error, which you can forgive. Hell Waters of Mars has a dating error too. It says the Dalek Invasion was 2008, when it is 2009. As in Aliens of London the Doctor is gone for one year, and in End of Time he says he met Rose in 2005, so that means Aliens takes place in 2006 and therefore all the other invasion earth stories take place a year ahead, so yeah that's a dating error but that's obviously fine. Not the same as throwing away years of development.) Speaking as a 90s fanboy, part of why I loved DW and was desperate to get all of it, was because it seemed like one big story with one big character. I honestly cannot imagine the next generation after new who feeling that way. Are young boys who looked up to Tennant as a more relatable role model for them which he was meant to be going to want to see Jodie? Or Ncuti? It's definitely going to be a more splintered legacy than classic who. I do worry that it will drag down Classic Who through association as well. We'll just have to see. |
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Post by iank on Jul 16, 2024 20:51:28 GMT
Bring on the Leisure Hive bashing!  Man I remember doing a marathon in the early 2010s. Going straight from the wit, warmth and wonder of the Williams era to The Leisure Hive was like being dragged out of a warm bath, thrown naked into the street and kicked in the face. Thankfully season 18 recovers straight after with the bizarrely underrated Meglos, but Leisure Hive is absolute dreary cack. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2024 5:15:48 GMT
Yeah it kinda is dreary but I do quite like Tom's dark red coat in that season plus his scarf designed by June Hudson gets introduced here . But yeah the story itself is a bit of a mess luckily things improve in this season after leisure.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2024 7:17:38 GMT
Yeah it kinda is dreary but I do quite like Tom's dark red coat in that season plus his scarf designed by June Hudson gets introduced here . But yeah the story itself is a bit of a mess luckily things improve in this season after leisure. Anyone who thought the question marks were okay should never have been allowed to work on the show. 80s Who was a joke because JNT made it a joke. |
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Post by megalomaniacal on Jul 17, 2024 7:32:25 GMT
Bring on the Leisure Hive bashing! Man I remember doing a marathon in the early 2010s. Going straight from the wit, warmth and wonder of the Williams era to The Leisure Hive was like being dragged out of a warm bath, thrown naked into the street and kicked in the face. Thankfully season 18 recovers straight after with the bizarrely underrated Meglos, but Leisure Hive is absolute dreary cack. That is true - very, very different from S17... too much so. Some great ideas in there (IMO), but could almost have been a two parter? I'm old enough to have been to Madam Tussauds in London when they had the Dr Who feature there in the early '80s. They had spiky Tom/ Meglos descending some metal stairs from the dark above - freaked me out quite a bit! So yeah, got a soft spot for that story too. |
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Post by Ludders II on Jul 17, 2024 8:38:21 GMT
Not a huge fan of S18 myself, but I don't think The Leisure Hive is anything like as dull as Logopolis, or even Warrior's Gate if it comes to that. That said, the only one I really like from S18 is State of Decay. Even so, I bemoan the fact that it wasn't produced in 1977 when it was supposed to have been; so that we wouldn't have to put up with Adric.  Traken would probably be my second favourite, although largely because of Geoffrey Beevers as the Master. Otherwise, it's a fairly dull affair too. Meglos is alright I suppose, but it feels like a hangover from S17, which isn't a big favourite season either; although better than 18 overall. Full Circle is just 'ok' as well. Not a story that's ever made much of an impact on me either way, to be honest. But at least it's reasonable I suppose. A lot of S18 feels like the Davo era with a slightly less bland Doctor; given that Tom himself gives a fairly average performance by his standards. I would rank the season thus: State of Decay Keeper of Traken The Leisure Hive Meglos Full Circle Warriors' Gate Logopolis |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2024 9:03:44 GMT
The jump from Baker and Ward to Davison and his brat pack is just insane. It goes from being quite classy to becoming a CBBC after-school special. I know you guys are JNT apologists to an extent but man did that guy cock it up in his first few years. Colin Baker was actually an improvement imo.
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Post by Bernard Marx on Jul 17, 2024 9:32:50 GMT
Colin Baker was actually an improvement imo. If nothing else, I agree with *this* bit… |
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Post by Cherry Pepsi Maxil on Jul 17, 2024 11:56:15 GMT
We need to do a Yak bingo game every time he repeats the same old matras about 80s Who.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2024 12:20:04 GMT
We need to do a Yak bingo game every time he repeats the same old matras about 80s Who. I'm sorry man but it just sucked |
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Post by burrunjor on Jul 17, 2024 12:25:31 GMT
We need to do a Yak bingo game every time he repeats the same old matras about 80s Who. I agree Yak is a tedious bore. We all know I'd never bring up the same things again and again in threads. PS I want Alti and big Fam to spank me, and I hate Jimmy Carr and reddit and I got Sophie Aldred to work for me. Have I ever mentioned those things before? |
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Post by Cherry Pepsi Maxil on Jul 17, 2024 12:37:59 GMT
We need to do a Yak bingo game every time he repeats the same old matras about 80s Who. I'm sorry man but it just sucked Thanks. That really explains it. |
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Post by burrunjor on Jul 17, 2024 12:45:23 GMT
We need to do a Yak bingo game every time he repeats the same old matras about 80s Who. I'm sorry man but it just sucked I do like 80s who for the record, but it is a very schizo era in terms of quality, more so than the 60s or 70s or even the first 7 years of new who. Whether you like or hate those eras, it's true that the quality is consistent apart from the odd dud, or at worse a bad patch. With 80s Who however it really does jump about the place a lot more. I think the biggest problems with the decade are. 1/ Poor script editor in Eric Saward. Now again for the record I love Saward as a writer. In fact he is one of my favourite writers, with every story of his being a classic in my opinion, but he really had no f*cking clue how to run the show. He didn't have any respect for the character or the show itself. Viewing both as uncool, outdated etc. He was only enthusiastic about a few things like the Cybermen, which again is fine for the writer of a Cyber story, but not the guy managing it. He also seemed to be very lazy and didn't like doing much work on the show (mentioning he loved hiring old writers because then he had very little to do on their scripts.) He was also too shy and often let JNT do whatever he wanted without a word of protest. He was also a terrible ambassador for the series, both during and after his time, constantly slagging it off. The only one of the old writers who comes to being as bad an ambassador was Terrance Dicks, but even he is still in the nursery compared to Saward. He was also a bad tempered, miserable git too LOL, who was extremely unprofessional and tactless to his writers and actors and showed them 0 respect. Finally he also began I think the hero worship of some writers like Bob Holmes. Again obviously Bob Holmes was one of the greatest sci fi writers, not just DW writers of the 20th century, but like everyone else he had his failings and where as before people like Barry Letts, Terrance Dicks and Hinchcliff who respected him, but still viewed him as a colleague would hold him back, Saward never touched a word of his scripts. This in turn led to Holmes' 80s work being very patchy. Whilst his talent still shone through in scripts like Caves, others like Two Doctors were sloppy, first draft and self indulgent stories. (Though I still enjoy it, it's because of the location and performances.) Ultimately however when this type of thinking that Saward set a precedent for is applied to less talented writers than Holmes like RTD, yeah the results are not good. 2/ JNT himself also thanks to Saward never pulling him up and the shows increased popularity in the first half of the decade became the first celebrity showrunner and as a result became very self indulgent, with anything he wanted like making the companions into avatars for his hatred of feminism, Colin's coat etc happening. 3/ Poor effects as JNT tried to make it compete with Star Wars and do these big special effects spectacles like the Myrka. Now previous eras all had episodes with atrocious effects at some point like the Dinosaurs, but those tended to be rarer and were not as bad by the standards of the time. 80s who however is honestly where I think the cheap reputation came from. 4/ Behind the scenes problems with the Beeb wanting to finish it, obviously had a knock on effect on the show itself. Trial and season 24 that were both a shambles behind the scenes were the absolute worst offenders in this regard. 5/ I think this was also the decade when the show and its fandom first lost their confidence. Even before the actual drop off in popularity. Fact is it was a really old show at this stage, and Star Wars had raised the banner for visual effects, then there was the catastrophic fall in viewers for Tom's last season (which sorry to say is bigger than ANYTHING in New Who's history.) I think the 80s is full of the writers and producers not being confident in the formula of DW. From Davison having too many companions, to it being too edge lord in places like Warriors of the Deep, light entertainment guests, the Doctor being sidelined for characters that are supposed to be what the audience wants, to the Doctor being made younger and then darker and edgier in a way that's too overwritten etc. Of course all of these problems I think were gone by the last two McCoy seasons, but that was a bit too late. Ultimately though I think the 80s still wouldn't have ended the show had it not been for the deliberate sabotage, and indeed I think it's fair for a lot of people to be a bit more defensive of it, given how it was shat on to a greater extent and a lot of the time, for things that previous and subsequent eras did just as much, like too many return appearances of old enemies. |
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