Which new who monsters do you think?

[burrunjor]

Could have become major recurring antagonists? 

Ironically despite its main line of defense being "all change is good" one of the biggest problems with New Who is that it is afraid to do anything new. Only two seasons have featured a new antagonist as the main villain, and sadly as both villains were pretty lame (the Silence and Tim Shaw.) The makers have endlessly fallen back on classic who villains. 

Now for the record I didn't mind that in the RTD era. I think that was a good idea to bring the big four classic villains back as the main villains every year, Daleks, Cybermen, Master, Davros. However I think we start to fall into a problem from the 2009 specials on when it becomes rather than try and add to the rogues gallery, let's just keep falling back on it. Worse as the writers don't seem to have any respect for the villains from the original then they often don't write them in character. It's once again the worst of both worlds, where the show looks tired because it's the same villains every year, but on other hand those of us who do like those villains hate these bastardisations like Missy and the Cybusmen and Sutekh becoming Scooby Doo. 

I think I've mentioned this before, but originally RTD intended to do a fifth series in 2009 where the Beast would have been the main foe. It would have seen Martha (who returned after her husband died in the Dalek invasion) and Lady Christina as the companions, and the finale would have been set in the 10th century where the Beasts children were trying to bring it back and ended in Lady Christina's death and the Doctor then dumping Martha back home out of fear she would suffer and die, which would have then led into the Waters of Mars as the Christmas special and the final Tennant being a New Years special. 

Ultimately this was abandoned, but traces of it do still appear. For instance the Beasts number 666 appears a few times in series 4, in a similar foreshadowing to how Torchwood was mentioned in series 1, the Medusa Cascade was mentioned in series 3 etc. Also in The End of Time there was a reference to the Doctor having fought a Demon in the 10th century and finally a comic did feature Martha reuniting with the Doctor and fighting the Beast. 

To me this is one of the biggest mistakes New Who ever made as I do think the Beast unlike Tim Shaw and the Silence would have been strong enough to carry a season and set a precedent that New Who didn't have to rely on classic era villains to such an extent. Visually he was perhaps the best monster in all of New Who, the idea was intriguing and mixed horror, sci fi, religion and creation myths together seamlessly and then of course you had Gabriel Wolf's voice. 

Ironically the Beast would have been a much better foe for the last season than Sutekh. He is more genuinely supernatural than Sutekh who was just an alien. He came from outside the universe like the Toymaker  and Sutekh's other children, also the Beast mentions having children all over the universe, so the Pantheon would have fitted into that story again with Sutekh it makes no sense as he was an Osiran so why aren't his children Osirans? Okay he says he evolved into his final godhood, (which how did he do that by the way) but that only happened after he was trapped on the TARDIS so when did he father these non Osiran actual supernatural children? 

Also even the whole him being on the TARDIS this whole time thing wouldn't have been as stupid as that would have been the only way for the Beast to escape being sucked into the black hole as the TARDIS was the only thing not being pulled into the black hole at that point, and as the Beast at that point was just a mind, it wouldn't have been a question of he was actually sitting on the TARDIS. His mind could have say tried to merge with it and then been consumed by it and destroyed except for one tiny trace the TARDIS wasn't aware of and assumed he was dead. (Explaining why it didn't mention him in The Doctors Wife.)

However when Ncuti split the TARDIS into two using the Toymaker, the Beasts son's weapon, the power of that weapon that was made from the same energy the beast and his children used outside the universe, and so Ncuti unknowingly caused the last trace of the Beast's mind (that was was sent into the second TARDIS) to wake up and receive a power boost allowing him to slowly take control of Ncuti's TARDIS, eventually leading to the Beast escaping in the finale. This would also explain why Maestro had returned and why supernatural creatures were becoming more common and emerging from hiding for the first time after the 60th. It was all in preparation for their father who they could sense had awoken returning, with Maestro's slaughter of the earth being a sacrifice to her dad to win his favour after she'd just been bumming about the universe not trying to carry out his plan for centuries before hand. 

All the plot holes and ridiculousness with Sutekh clinging to the TARDIS also go away with this in mind, like Sutekh who was strong enough when he escaped in Pyramids of Mars to destroy the universe then for some reason deciding to just sit on a box for 20000000 years.

Ultimately however RTD just went with Sutekh because he is a classic era villain, even though the story made 0 sense with him for reasons we've just been over. Once again rather than make one of New Who's creations a big deal, they gave us a bastardised version of an old foe nobody wanted. 

What other great new who villains do you think could have and should have at least become recurring foes?

[Cherry Pepsi Maxil]

I quite like the Family in Human Nature, but then they're not really NuWho monsters/villains because they appeared in the New Adventures first.


This question makes me realize how poor some of the new foes are compared to the greatest villains of TruWho. RTD and co would be screwed if they weren't allowed to bring any classic who foes back.

[burrunjor]

Jul 9, 2024 11:21:48 GMT Cherry Pepsi Maxil said:

I quite like the Family in Human Nature, but then they're not really NuWho monsters/villains because they appeared in the New Adventures first.


This question makes me realize how poor some of the new foes are compared to the greatest villains of TruWho. RTD and co would be screwed if they weren't allowed to bring any classic who foes back.

See that's the sad thing, I don't think that is the case. Well not until the Capaldi era anyway after which they really didn't try anymore. 

New Who for all its faults up until the end of Matt's time is one of the few shows alongside Buffy, Angel and Classic who that never phoned it in when came to monsters and creatures, either in terms of design or concept. 

When you look at other sci fi or fantasy shows like Star Trek, Charmed, Supernatural, the Arrowverse shows, the monsters, aliens of the week are very generic. That's not to say they don't have good villains but often they are the main characters, and even then they might start out as bland like the Klingons and the Romulans. The reason for that is these other shows are often focusing on other things like the characters, which for certain series like Star Trek is absolutely fine, and the foes of the week are therefore just meant to provide a threat and nothing more. 

DW however, both versions and Buffy/Angel always put a lot of thought into the monsters and made them the focus of the story as much as the characters. Now obviously that doesn't mean they always got it right. Indeed all 4 had some atrociously laughable monsters from the Slitheen to the Myrka, to the boozey cavemen. Still even then in all those cases there is a legit attempt. 

The Sitheen as poor as they are, do have fleshed out backstories, unique and interesting motivations, and effort has been put into the design to make it stand out. It's a shame it all doesn't work LOL. 

Still as a result of this New Who when it did work had some terrific monsters for its first 7 years. 

The Midnight Entity for instance was one (though I don't think it would have worked as a season long antagonist or even a recurring threat as part of what made it so scary was how mysterious it was.) 

Meanwhile other foes who could have been interesting recurring foes I think included the Flood from Waters of Mars. We never knew where it came from. Was it native to Mars or had it invaded that planet? A prequel episode set on Mars could have been interesting, and indeed stories set on other planets exploring where it came from, how it travels through space, perhaps in asteroids (which can contain water) or even a story where it gets loose on earth in the future. There was a lot of mileage in there. 

I also think the Kryltrane's could have been interesting antagonists as their ability to steal aspects of other species could have led to some really cool variants, not only visually but in terms of character too, with some perhaps taking aspects of the aliens personalities. 

The Toclafane would also have been really cool to see again, on their own. Having the Doctor fight hideously mutated, monstrous humans is a very dark and scary concept. Who knows maybe they could have been tied into Gallifrey's past? Perhaps in an attempt to find the Master, the Toclafane zeroed in on time lord technology and ended up in their past thousands of years ago and nearly wiped the early Time Lords out?

Similarly the Gelth could have led to some really cool Zombie and Ghost and ghoul stories. 

It's just such a shame that in all cases apart from the Angels, the new who villains they chose to be recurring like the Slitheen, Cassandra, the Silence and Tim Shaw were so lame. They really missed a trick with so many classic villains. 

[Cherry Pepsi Maxil]

Jul 9, 2024 11:44:17 GMT burrunjor said:

Jul 9, 2024 11:21:48 GMT Cherry Pepsi Maxil said:

I quite like the Family in Human Nature, but then they're not really NuWho monsters/villains because they appeared in the New Adventures first.


This question makes me realize how poor some of the new foes are compared to the greatest villains of TruWho. RTD and co would be screwed if they weren't allowed to bring any classic who foes back.

See that's the sad thing, I don't think that is the case. Well not until the Capaldi era anyway after which they really didn't try anymore. 

New Who for all its faults up until the end of Matt's time is one of the few shows alongside Buffy, Angel and Classic who that never phoned it in when came to monsters and creatures, either in terms of design or concept. 

When you look at other sci fi or fantasy shows like Star Trek, Charmed, Supernatural, the Arrowverse shows, the monsters, aliens of the week are very generic. That's not to say they don't have good villains but often they are the main characters, and even then they might start out as bland like the Klingons and the Romulans. The reason for that is these other shows are often focusing on other things like the characters, which for certain series like Star Trek is absolutely fine, and the foes of the week are therefore just meant to provide a threat and nothing more. 

DW however, both versions and Buffy/Angel always put a lot of thought into the monsters and made them the focus of the story as much as the characters. Now obviously that doesn't mean they always got it right. Indeed all 4 had some atrociously laughable monsters from the Slitheen to the Myrka, to the boozey cavemen. Still even then in all those cases there is a legit attempt. 

The Sitheen as poor as they are, do have fleshed out backstories, unique and interesting motivations, and effort has been put into the design to make it stand out. It's a shame it all doesn't work LOL. 

Still as a result of this New Who when it did work had some terrific monsters for its first 7 years. 

The Midnight Entity for instance was one (though I don't think it would have worked as a season long antagonist or even a recurring threat as part of what made it so scary was how mysterious it was.) 

Meanwhile other foes who could have been interesting recurring foes I think included the Flood from Waters of Mars. We never knew where it came from. Was it native to Mars or had it invaded that planet? A prequel episode set on Mars could have been interesting, and indeed stories set on other planets exploring where it came from, how it travels through space, perhaps in asteroids (which can contain water) or even a story where it gets loose on earth in the future. There was a lot of mileage in there. 

I also think the Kryltrane's could have been interesting antagonists as their ability to steal aspects of other species could have led to some really cool variants, not only visually but in terms of character too, with some perhaps taking aspects of the aliens personalities. 

The Toclafane would also have been really cool to see again, on their own. Having the Doctor fight hideously mutated, monstrous humans is a very dark and scary concept. Who knows maybe they could have been tied into Gallifrey's past? Perhaps in an attempt to find the Master, the Toclafane zeroed in on time lord technology and ended up in their past thousands of years ago and nearly wiped the early Time Lords out?

Similarly the Gelth could have led to some really cool Zombie and Ghost and ghoul stories. 

It's just such a shame that in all cases apart from the Angels, the new who villains they chose to be recurring like the Slitheen, Cassandra, the Silence and Tim Shaw were so lame. They really missed a trick with so many classic villains. 

Yeah, but even the best villains are nowhere near as successful as the ones introduced in the classic era. The Weeping Angels and the Silence are the obvious exceptions to that. Have we really had a species or foe that rivals the Master or the Daleks themselves?

[Cherry Pepsi Maxil]

I actually agree with the Toclafane. They were a neat (and somewhat twisted) idea in all honesty.

[rushy]

The ghosts from Unquiet Dead - their world being destroyed by the Time War gives them a decent setup for a rivalry with the Doctor, and you could do a lot with a civilisation just clinging on to existence, desperate to survive. It's relatable. The fact that they can possess anyone also gives them an advantage, and variety.

The Krillitanes from School Reunion - Another alien species that has some backstory with the Doctor (they remember the reign of the Time Lords, so presumably they were part of the 'upper class' of the galaxy for a while) and has variety. They alter themselves genetically to become more superior. Easy explanation for drastic redesigns and new ideas in future episodes.

The VHS monster from Idiots' Lantern - Mainly influenced by my fondness for Twin Peaks, but turning the television itself into a literal antagonist is a really cool idea and could come back into play in multiple forms.

Satan from The Impossible Planet - Sutekh, but cooler.

The Almost People from The Rebel Flesh - Dopplegangers are always fun.

The Emoji Bots from Smile - I get that they might seem cringy, but basing your decisions on emotional absolutes is such a cool idea to me. I found them really interesting and I like that they develop conscience towards the end. It'd be cool to see what they evolved into.

[Deleted]

Jul 9, 2024 11:51:11 GMT Cherry Pepsi Maxil said:

I actually agree with the Toclafane. They were a neat (and somewhat twisted) idea in all honesty.

It was just such a telegraphed twist. I remember calling it when I was a kid back in 2007

[Spark Doll King]

I've always been surprised the Vashta Nerada never resurfaced in the tv series. They are a pretty popular monster & their not that expensive to bring to screen.

[Deleted]

I would've been fine with Missy if they had established that the Master had possessed the body of a woman rather than regenerated into her. Then you get Michelle Gomez's performance without the ramifications of gender-bending Time Lords and a female Doctor.

[burrunjor]

Jul 12, 2024 11:43:56 GMT @theyakemperor said:

I would've been fine with Missy if they had established that the Master had possessed the body of a woman rather than regenerated into her. Then you get Michelle Gomez's performance without the ramifications of gender-bending Time Lords and a female Doctor.

She'd still have f*cked up the Masters character through being in love with the Doctor and having no similarities with the Master in any way shape or form.

I don't even think Missy would work as an original character to be honest. I mean I wouldn't hate her like I do now, but as an original character Missy would just be Moffat's fantasy female character again. As I've pointed out many times, she is just River Song/Irene Adler/Tasha Lem recycled for the fourth time. 

All of them start out as flirty dominatrix antagonists with it being funny that these sexy women are making an asexual hero uncomfortable, but then we find out they are in love with him, then he has to rescue them from being executed or killed, then they reveal they are in love with him, and they end up as allies, even if it still ends in tragedy. Also their personalities are the same, they all call themselves psychopaths, they all make jokes about bondage and BDSM, are all bisexual, and they all have moments where they weep over how amazing the hero is. 

Hell Michelle Gomez and the actresses who played Irene and Tasha even look the same to be honest, all dark hair, somewhat mature looks, pointy features, striking eyes etc. 

Moffat had already got a lot of heat from the feminists for reusing this idea 3 times back in 2013. (I remember lots of people even thought that River was supposed to be in Time of the Doctor, but Alex Kingston was just unavailable and so they just changed River to Tasha at the last minute, but kept all of her dialogue. It turns out that wasn't it at all. He really was just that unoriginal.) 

To me that's part of why Moffat made her a female Master as he could hide behind being unoriginal with "this is the first female master" or "you're a homophobe who doesn't admit that Pertwee and Delgado were gay lovers." He was very wiley that way. Pity he didn't put that thought into the scripts.