Interesting discussions thread

[The Yak Emperor]

I'm just curious to see if anyone has anything actually interesting to discuss about the show, rather than the usual "Bill is better than Clara" type stuff.

I'll go first: I think earthbound stories work better in general because they can really get under your skin by playing on the latent fears of the time period. Think of Spearhead and Terror of the Autons and how they coincide with the mass ubiquity of plastic products as well as awareness surrounding its pollutive properties, or how The Daemons plays on the strange paranoia of rural English parishes, as do The Android Invasion and Terror of the Zygons to an extent; and how the genius of The Pyramids of Mars is that it isn't about Egypt, it's about Egyptology. Somehow that country estate filled with looted artefacts and colonial curiosities is a lot scarier than the actual tomb of Sutekh. These are real, tangible places and atmospheres that succeed more in evoking a mood than the sterile, clinical sets of offworld stories do.

Feel free to counter my argument, that is what this thread is about.

[rushy]

I think both work equally well. Futuristic stories indulge your imagination more. They don't have to be scary, just interesting and compelling.

It's a question of mood. And that variety most likely helped the show survive. Even if you weren't interested in the current serial, you knew they could always land someplace more interesting next time.

[burrunjor]

Yeah I agree with Rushy. There's not either or to be honest as you can make just as compelling arguments for one or the other. Is Genesis better than Inferno? Hard to say, in fact impossible to say objectively, as both are just as well written, acted, directed etc.

For me the key to the Doctors success is his versatility. I'd say the classic era Doctor is along with Batman the single greatest hero of all time. 

The classic era Doctor can obviously take part in any type of adventure story you want. From a practical point of view, his TARDIS allows him to travel to any planet at any point in its history meaning he can take part in everything from space operas to invasion earth stories, to stories about the hopelessness of mankind's future to historicals. However beyond that, he can also enter into any type of adventure situation because he isn't super powered. Other than regeneration and his intellgence, the Doctor doesn't have special abilities and can therefore be threatened by any type of villain. A gangster with a gun can kill him, and not just make him regenerate but actively kill him, so he can appear in adventures that have no supernatural elements like Marco Polo. However his Time Lord intelligence and knowledge can still allow him to fight monsters too allowing hi to if need be battle gods like Sutekh. 

Meanwhile he can also cross the boundaries of sci fi and the supernatural as the TARDIS does have surrealist elements to it and the Doctor is also like a cross between a wizard and a scientist to. Unlike say Star Trek which I don't think could ever bring supernatural elements in, or Buffy which could never do a story about say Martians invading the earth with robots, DW can and did do stories about vampires, gods, werewolves etc. Now to be fair Star Trek DID do an episode about the Greek Gods, but it had to completely explain them as aliens. Similarly Buffy had aliens but they were demons with supernatural powers, not space ships. However DW's vampires and Werewolves were more or less the real deal. It was left open ended as to what they were, so if you didn't like it you could rationalise them as aliens but if you were open to it they were genuine. Hell in Battlefield it blurred the line between demons and aliens and magic and science in a way few other things have done. Honestly I don't think you'd get away in most sci fi shows with even hinting magic or the supernatural was real. 

Finally regeneration, along with the Master, the most maligned and misunderstood concept by modern writers and fans. It was a genius idea that really did allow you to have the best of all worlds. On the one hand from a practical point of view he changed his face, and at the same time his change in personality allowed an actor to not only put a new spin on it, but it allowed them to help steer the show in a different direction. (Jon Pertwee being a big guy allowed them for instance to do more action stories.) However the fact that there was a strong template meant that the Doctor didn't become just a title either, and that they could build his story up over decades. 

Sadly of course New Who tossed so much of this out by making him just a title that is passed down to other characters, (hell they've made him a species of gods thanks to the stupid bi regeneration) and they also gave him too many super powers too. 

Shame as again I can't think of many other classic characters that were as adaptable as the Doctor. Wonder Woman, Superman and Spider-Man are too powerful to take on regular threats with the same sense of vulnerability, whilst the likes of Robin Hood and Green Arrow and Daredevil couldn't say take on robots, or aliens etc in the same way. Even Buffy similarly is limited to supernatural threats most of the time. Batman like I said is the only other one, due to similarly having the right balance of being vulnerable to ordinary weapons, but having the gadgets and intellect to fight super beings too, and there are elements of gothic, sci fi, crime, tragedy, romance and even comedy in his character too. 

Xena in time I think could have been the third character like that. She also can take on both ordinary and supernatural threats, and has elements of comedy, romance, tragedy in her character and setting that blends numerous historical periods, plus myths also offers a huge range to draw from. Of course she ultimately didn't have as long a history to draw from as they did, but honestly if there were a remake then she could be (though leave it 20 years. Much like B7 it and Buffy have escaped the culture war vultures and parasites on both sides. A shame though as Gina Carano would have been amazing in the part. Imagine the current crop of elitist fans would actually argue that Jodie Whittaker should play William Hartnell and that Gina Carano shouldn't play Xena. f*cking insanity!) 

Still the Doctor exceeded even Batman when it came to the range of adventure stories he could be in. Damn shame he's been destroyed for future generations and will never be exploited that way again. 

[rushy]

My topic is that I wish the show had embraced being low-key and grounded, as it was during the Hartnell era.

Troughton and Pertwee's eras are both very comic book-ish in their own way, with monsters, mad scientists, supervillains and invasions being regular features. That's all fine and good, but it's definitely a more exaggerated reality. Tom's period is much more varied, but of course he's such an outlandishly eccentric personality himself. And a lot of his run does still embrace the tropes.

Whereas in the Hartnell era, they really commit to being somewhat realistic. I like that Earth is largely free of aliens, and that the drama comes from the historical setting itself. That's why Marco Polo is one of my favourite stories. It's so immersive and natural. And the sci-fi stories are much more about atmosphere and detail as well.

Plus, you have one of the most believable TARDIS crews with the Doctor, Ian, Barbara and Susan (very similar to Poirot, Hastings, Lemon and Inspector Japp in the ITV series).

The show is aware that its very premise is phenomenal. It doesn't take itself for granted. Having a time machine that can take you anywhere is an incredible plot device. You don't need to "spruce it up". Just being able to visit these different worlds and time periods is cool, as long as they're fleshed out. Which, in the Hartnell era, they usually were.

[iank]

I think the show was mostly earthbound anyway though you need the contrast otherwise you end up with New Who's "all of time and space... providing its 21st century Earth." There are some great stories that could not take place on Earth, while I do appreciate the historicals too.
I think the Pertwee era showed the danger of being too restricted, with aliens invading contemporary Earth every week, which even Letts and Dicks tried to get away from asap.