Favourite villains

[burrunjor]

From all mediums. 

1/ The Joker

I like him the best because he has the most charismatic personality of possibly any villain, the most intense and interesting relationship with the hero, and manages to blend so many genres together from horror, to crime, to pulpy boys own adventures, to comedy. Indeed the Joker has the ability to make me laugh even when doing the most horrible things. 






I nearly choked laughing so hard when I first read this scene. It's so random and horrifyingly, yet hilariously cruel. 

2/ The Daleks

I was a little bit torn over whether or not to include these guys in the number 1 position? I guess I just didn't want to be so obvious on a DW forum LOL. The Daleks have an incredibly wide range of stories, due to the fact that they can time travel and have such a long history. They also can be the greatest force for evil, sneaky and manipulative, or even tragic monsters who have no say in what they are depending on your outlook too. Their design is also a work of art. It succeeds on so many levels. On the one hand it's unnerving because it is so genuinely alien, on the other it can be deceptively friendly looking, on the other the fact that it does have limitations ties into their persona's perfectly. It explains why they are so aggressive as they are such a vulnerable race they feel scared. Also above all that it's actually quite a pleasing design too LOL and one that little kids are instantly attracted too. My niece, who has never seen DW, instantly fell in love with an old Dalek figure from my house. 

I also think the Daleks are probably the most successful political metaphor in science fiction. 1984 is overrated LOL and isn't actually as good a metaphor for fascism as the Daleks are for man's inhumanity to man in general. Its not just race hatred, but nuclear war, mindless conformity, fascism and man's destructive effective on the environment too. Robert Holmes was an up his own arse, short sighted, smug, superior snob in his attitude towards the Daleks.  




3/ Alti

Obviously she's not as iconic as the first two choices. This is more of a personal taste for me. Still all kinky, sexy shit about her aside. I love this character. She's genuinely frightening, monstrous and is a brilliant horror movie type villain, and also one of the few examples of a female villain who they never tried to make more sympathetic, or into a poor soul, or just portray as being in love with the male hero. Honestly this was always a cliche, and if anything it's gotten worse with all these sympathetic interpretations of formerly evil bitches like the Wicked Witch and Maleficent and what's worse is the backstory is usually some guy gave her a dizzy and she went evil. Alti is an outlier for female villains and to me the best. An evil, evil bitch who thrives on pain and suffering and who isn't going to be changed by some good guy. 



4/ Jadis

From The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe  and The Magicians Nephew. Again I wasn't sure if I preferred her to Alti? (Incidentally Alti's actress, Claire Stansfield would have been f*cking amazing as Jadis. That truly was a missed opportunity. God damn it why did Claire retire just when she had found her niche?) Jadis is again another awesome female villain that isn't just a guys fantasy of a bad girl who is easily redeemed. She's a full on genocidal monster, and her backstory in The Magician's Nephew is honestly the best and most frightening backstory of any villain, apart from the Daleks. (Though it must be said that Jadis's backstory was actually a huge influence on the Daleks. In many ways she can almost be seen as a proto Dalek.) 




 5/ Callisto

In all fairness Callisto is probably a better character than Alti. There's more to her, but I have such a soft spot for Alti. Still Callisto is probably the best example of a tragic villain for me, who you can genuinely sympathise with, but whose evil crimes really pushed the limits of your sympathy. It says everything that Callisto was a villain who first appeared slicing the neck of a young boy clean open, yet you could still have some empathy with her.



6/ Venom and Carnage

Felt I had to include these two together. This is my favourite arc from Spider-Man. It's such a creative, unique and fascinating story, full of so many incredible twists and turns, from the black suit being alive, to it bonding to an old rival of Peter's to Venom later becoming a good guy against Carnage. I also LOVE the way Carnage is a deconstruction of the fetishized "serial killers are geniuses." As Cletus Kasady is just a pathetic, miserable coward and a waste of a human life too. Whilst snobs like Sam Raimi may look down on Venom and Carnage for not being created by Stan Lee and Steve Ditko, Venom and Carnage have ultimately carved a named for themselves as two of the most iconic and unique villains in comic book history. 






Think of what a power couple Carnage and Callisto would make LOL. Ironically for all his snobby bullshit Sam Raimi basically did his own version of Carnage with Callisto. 

7/ Khan Noonien Singh

It's a testament to what a fantastic character he is and what an amazing actor Ricardo Montablan was that despite only appearing in two stories, Khan would probably make most peoples list of best villains. A fantastic backstory, a interesting 3 dimensional personality, where despite being a ruthless dictator you can feel sympathy for him in Wrath of Khan when he loses everything (and much like Callisto, his grievance against the hero is somewhat justified.) Also Montablan's presence and the arc Khan has over just two films where he goes from young, handsome, dashing space prince, but bitter, twisted old wreck is fascinating and was a truly inspired bit of writing. 




He and Jadis I can see being a great couple LOL. Incidentally I don't count CumberKhan. To me he was on the level of the Simm Master. A pretty pointless return that failed to get the character, but wasn't a total disaster like Missy, because at least they got an actor who wasn't woefully miscast in the role.

8/ The Master

I can't stress this enough. I only mean the classic era version of the character LOL. Roger Delgado=Eric Roberts. THAT villain who has nothing to do with the bullshit in new who, was one of the best manipulative, smooth, suave, trickster villains ever devised and also had a brilliant relationship with the hero, where both did genuinely want to kill each other but could never manage it. Even more than Batman and the Joker they embodied the unstoppable force meets an immovable object aspect of the hero/villain relationship. My favourite version is probably the burned Master who really stripped the character down to his basics and showed how hateful and vicious and cowardly he was. 



Incidentally he and Alti were a couple, in that Eric Roberts and Claire Stansfield played lovers in a film. Sadly it didn't work out as she killed any woman who got near him, and then tried to kill him when she thought he was cheating on her. If even the Master says "that bitch is crazy" how bad must Alti have been LOL. 

9/ Dracula

As a vampire fanboy I couldn't not include him. Whilst I haven't been keen on every version of Dracula over the years, and I think he's a rare example of a male villain who has been reduced to just being in love with someone, overall at his core Dracula is still a fascinating, and terrifying villain with limitless potential. My favourite version meanwhile is Christopher Lee's.




10/ Grand High Witch

From Roald Dahl's classic novel, and the film adaptation where she was played by Anjelica Huston. The witch is without doubt the scariest villain on the list in so many ways. To start with what she represents, of predators of children using charity to not only hide in plain sight but gain access to their victims is horrifying, but also the fates she inflicts on her victims like poor sweet Erica are true nightmare fuel. 



Also again she was part of a power couple with another villain on the list LOL. Anjelica Huston and Jack Nicholson were a couple for many years so yeah it seems the Witch was the Jokers squeeze before he turned to Harley Quinn. I reckon she'd have been impressed with what he did to Robin in the above clip. 

Meanwhile 5 villains that I think are terribly overrated would have to be. 

1/ Professor Moriarty

I give him credit for being the first modern supervillain and defining the concept of the archenemy for modern audiences. However Moriarty beyond that has never really done much for me. He's honestly fairly dull, and it must be said that whilst there have been good performances of the villain, like Eric Porters. None have ever been as iconic as the likes of the Joker, the Master, or the Daleks as there just isn't that much to work with. He's more of a good idea for a character than a good character IMO. 

2/Blofeld

Sorry but the same applies. Again I liked Donald Pleasance and Telly Savalos' performances, but even then there wasn't much to either beyond just bad guy. I'm NOT saying every villain has to be deep. Again Alti isn't exactly deep, neither is the Joker in most of his appearances. However I think you have to have some kind of charisma or colourful personality, or even just powers and appearance. Blofeld, other than the scar eye and white cat, doesn't really have much to make him stand out. Even among other Bond villains. Really what's the difference between him and say Stromberg? 

3/ The Klingons 

I'm baffled that they are considered among sci fi's greatest aliens? They are soooo crap. They don't have any kind of interesting back story or lore, other than their language, which I'm sorry I find tedious. We don't need to know an aliens language or whether or what booze they drink. Also their designs in the original series were bland, unimaginative and dull (and a little bit racist as they were meant to be East Asians, and were even described as "Orientals of the Ho Chi Min type" in the script.) They also are a bad, obnoxious and dated take on the USSR. Unlike the Daleks who were a great take on the Nazis and went on to represent race hatred to the point where they are still relevant 6 decades on, The Klingons are a laughable caricature of the Russians as the villains, who go around conquering other countries/planets compared to the whiter than white Federation/Americans. We all know the yanks NEVER invaded other countries and totally aren't an evil imperial power that threatens the entire world.

My own father who is a big Trekkie HATES the Klingon episodes for that reason. I might add given that at the time Star Trek was being broadcast, America was illegally invading Vietnam, an East Asian country, seeing the Klingons as dirty Rusky/East Asian villains really takes on an uncomfortable almost supremacist tone. On top of that the Klingons episodes in TOS are mostly crap apart from that one with Michael Anzara, and a lot of the time they are such weak antagonists they aren't even the focus of their episodes either. FFS only the Klingons are so crap they could be undermined by the Tribbles of all things. They were better in the films I'll give you that with a new kick ass design and Christopher Lloyd giving a great performance. Star Trek 3 and 6 are both classics. However even then I feel that it was more because of the story than because they were such interesting villains. Again Genesis of the Daleks only works with the Daleks, where as Star Trek 3 could have any race of bad guys and be the same. (Indeed the script was originally written with the Romulans, but changed to Klingons at the last minute.) 

4/ Darth Vader

He isn't a bad villain at all, but I just think his praise is a perhaps a little bit overblown. He has a cool back story and a spectacular design, and powers but to be honest a lot of the time I think he is surprisingly dull on screen. For instance the second movie in the original trilogy I think suffers from having him as the main villain. In the first meanwhile Lucas only came up with Tarkin because he knew Vader couldn't carry the film on his own that way. Again overall he's still a good villain, but ultimately I feel that he isn't quite as good a screen presence outside of scenes where he is fighting and killing people as you'd think. Ironically a lot of people say the same thing about the Daleks, including their own creator, Terry Nation, hence why Davros was devised, but personally I think it's more true of Vader. I never had an issue with Daleks talking to each other. I liked their voices. Again all just taste. He does have by far and away the best theme of any badguy in anything I'll admit. 

5/ The Wicked Witch

Again much like Vader she isn't a bad villain. I really liked the original Wizard of Oz film and the Witch was a highlight. However, she has kind of been ruined by all these awful portrayals of her as some poor woman who was driven to darkness because of bad men in her life, from Zelena in Once Upon A Time, to the version in Oz the Great and Powerful. She is in modern culture the epitome of what I can't stand in how female villains are portrayed, where they are just jealous exes of the heroes. What's worse though is a lot of these portrayals of the Witch try and make out they are empowering by showing "behind every bad woman is a man who drove her to that." Ironically however that comes over as more demeaning as it limits female villains and makes out that men are so much more important to them than vice versa, whether a woman is good or not depends entirely on the men in her life. 

Also when you look back at the original wicked witch, I don't know she doesn't seem as threatening or cool as later evil witches in popular culture, from Jadis to Alti, to the grand high witch, to even big Fam's evil witch from Hansel and Gretel. The original wicked witch is a bit lame to be honest. She was great for the time and the actresses performance was good, but yeah a bit of a let down compared to modern witches. 

 


 

[rushy]

Darth Vader/Emperor Palpatine (Star Wars)



Scorpius (Farscape)



Servalan (Blake's 7)



Rumpelstiltskin (Once Upon a Time)



Benjamin Linus (Lost)



The Master (Doctor Who)



Zira (The Lion King 2)



Baron Vladimir Harkonnen (Dune)



Lord Tywin Lannister (Game of Thrones)



Jack Torrance (The Shining)



The Tall Man (Phantasm)



Norman Bates (Psycho)

[Deleted]

Apr 2, 2024 11:20:03 GMT burrunjor said:

10/ Grand High Witch

From Roald Dahl's classic novel, and the film adaptation where she was played by Anjelica Huston. The witch is without doubt the scariest villain on the list in so many ways. To start with what she represents, of predators of children using charity to not only hide in plain sight but gain access to their victims is horrifying, but also the fates she inflicts on her victims like poor sweet Erica are true nightmare fuel. 



Also again she was part of a power couple with another villain on the list LOL. Anjelica Huston and Jack Nicholson were a couple for many years so yeah it seems the Witch was the Jokers squeeze before he turned to Harley Quinn. I reckon she'd have been impressed with what he did to Robin in the above clip. 
 

Anjelica Huston was so great in that. It always puzzles me though why Nic Roeg of all people directed it. Maybe it was a contractual obligation? Just really doesn't seem like his thing.

5/ The Wicked Witch

Again much like Vader she isn't a bad villain. I really liked the original Wizard of Oz film and the Witch was a highlight. However, she has kind of been ruined by all these awful portrayals of her as some poor woman who was driven to darkness because of bad men in her life, from Zelena in Once Upon A Time, to the version in Oz the Great and Powerful. She is in modern culture the epitome of what I can't stand in how female villains are portrayed, where they are just jealous exes of the heroes. What's worse though is a lot of these portrayals of the Witch try and make out they are empowering by showing "behind every bad woman is a man who drove her to that." Ironically however that comes over as more demeaning as it limits female villains and makes out that men are so much more important to them than vice versa, whether a woman is good or not depends entirely on the men in her life.

Also when you look back at the original wicked witch, I don't know she doesn't seem as threatening or cool as later evil witches in popular culture, from Jadis to Alti, to the grand high witch, to even big Fam's evil witch from Hansel and Gretel. The original wicked witch is a bit lame to be honest. She was great for the time and the actresses performance was good, but yeah a bit of a let down compared to modern witches.

I think she can only be rated the best villain in movie history. She really personifies the cultural fears of old Americana, the leering, devilish figure who harassed Puritans and prospectors alike, the ghost of the old world come to haunt the new, the serpent in the grass who warned "don't tread on me". You can see her darting between the gables of old Boston town in fall, a folkloric creature that haunts the local collective consciousness and keeps people in at night. She's the Wicked Witch of the West for a reason. If you want to go further with the metaphor, then the Wicked Witch of the East, representing the eastern seaboard, being crushed by the house symbolises the civilisation and neutering of the old frontier and the WWotW's subsequent arrival symbolises an entirely new frontier that needs to be civilised via Manifest Destiny; Dorothy's residing in Kansas makes a case for this. Yes, she may be a bit lame by today's comparisons, but deep down, there is something really, really scary about her, or maybe what she represents. An American might get it better than we do.

And yes, I definitely agree with you about the retrospective empowerment angle. Did you know that the original Wicked book was basically an erotic fanfiction? Says it all really

[burrunjor]

Apr 2, 2024 12:35:58 GMT @theyakemperor said:

Apr 2, 2024 11:20:03 GMT burrunjor said:

10/ Grand High Witch

From Roald Dahl's classic novel, and the film adaptation where she was played by Anjelica Huston. The witch is without doubt the scariest villain on the list in so many ways. To start with what she represents, of predators of children using charity to not only hide in plain sight but gain access to their victims is horrifying, but also the fates she inflicts on her victims like poor sweet Erica are true nightmare fuel. 



Also again she was part of a power couple with another villain on the list LOL. Anjelica Huston and Jack Nicholson were a couple for many years so yeah it seems the Witch was the Jokers squeeze before he turned to Harley Quinn. I reckon she'd have been impressed with what he did to Robin in the above clip. 
 

Anjelica Huston was so great in that. It always puzzles me though why Nic Roeg of all people directed it. Maybe it was a contractual obligation? Just really doesn't seem like his thing.

5/ The Wicked Witch

Again much like Vader she isn't a bad villain. I really liked the original Wizard of Oz film and the Witch was a highlight. However, she has kind of been ruined by all these awful portrayals of her as some poor woman who was driven to darkness because of bad men in her life, from Zelena in Once Upon A Time, to the version in Oz the Great and Powerful. She is in modern culture the epitome of what I can't stand in how female villains are portrayed, where they are just jealous exes of the heroes. What's worse though is a lot of these portrayals of the Witch try and make out they are empowering by showing "behind every bad woman is a man who drove her to that." Ironically however that comes over as more demeaning as it limits female villains and makes out that men are so much more important to them than vice versa, whether a woman is good or not depends entirely on the men in her life.

Also when you look back at the original wicked witch, I don't know she doesn't seem as threatening or cool as later evil witches in popular culture, from Jadis to Alti, to the grand high witch, to even big Fam's evil witch from Hansel and Gretel. The original wicked witch is a bit lame to be honest. She was great for the time and the actresses performance was good, but yeah a bit of a let down compared to modern witches.

I think she can only be rated the best villain in movie history. She really personifies the cultural fears of old Americana, the leering, devilish figure who harassed Puritans and prospectors alike, the ghost of the old world come to haunt the new, the serpent in the grass who warned "don't tread on me". You can see her darting between the gables of old Boston town in fall, a folkloric creature that haunts the local collective consciousness and keeps people in at night. She's the Wicked Witch of the West for a reason. If you want to go further with the metaphor, then the Wicked Witch of the East, representing the eastern seaboard, being crushed by the house symbolises the civilisation and neutering of the old frontier and the WWotW's subsequent arrival symbolises an entirely new frontier that needs to be civilised via Manifest Destiny; Dorothy's residing in Kansas makes a case for this. Yes, she may be a bit lame by today's comparisons, but deep down, there is something really, really scary about her, or maybe what she represents. An American might get it better than we do.

And yes, I definitely agree with you about the retrospective empowerment angle. Did you know that the original Wicked book was basically an erotic fanfiction? Says it all really

Perhaps. Again I understand why she was a big deal at the time, I just don't think she has held up as well, or perhaps it's more she's been usurped by other more badass witches in film, literature, and television.

You can contrast her with Dracula in that respect. Despite the hundreds of other awesome vampire characters, the Count is still quite a compelling character in the original story, and other reimaginings like Gatiss, Lee and even Lugosi. Whilst the 1933 Universal Dracula may be a bit slow in places, very few actors even today have the charisma Bela Lugosi had, and indeed most actors still turn to him as the basis to build their version of the count on. Though in all fairness a lot of the later badass Witches were based somewhat on the Wicked Witch too. You can see the influence of her make up in Anjelica Huston's and for the record Claire Stansfield based her performance as Alti on the Wicked Witch and Queen Mab from the 1998 Merlin miniseries. I suppose I'll give an honorary mention to Mab, who was played by Miranda Richardson. She was absolutely fantastic in the role btw. She always makes a great villain and the 2008 Merlin series absolutely should have brought in Miranda to be Mab for its final season rather than overused Morgana, or if they couldn't get her Paloma Faith who pretty much is her twin in looks and personality and the type of roles they play. However whilst I like Mab and would definitely include her among the best fantasy villains, compared to some of the others on the list I don't think she was quite as nasty, but still great to watch, and Maxil you should check her out as she was seriously hot. I mean she always is, but as Mab that is the sexiest she ever was. 



PS I'd recommend DW fans do what Sam Neill and the others do at the end here with whatever stupid retcon RTD makes for the upcoming series to annoy the ming mongs and anoraks like Davros gate LOL.

Meanwhile oh dear god does that make sense about Wicked being an erotic fan fiction. That's normally all these bad boys, or bad girls being turned good by the love of the hero stories are. 

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying you can't do a story about a villain seeking redemption. If done right it can be brilliant, and I'm not even saying you can't have a romance between the hero and the villain. Personally I've enjoyed most versions of Catwoman, but yeah it gets soooo tedious how overused it is in modern popular culture particularly for female villains and sadly can often just turn into the writer wanking, like when Irene goes on about how she will have Sherlock over the table and ravage him.

Sadly I don't think we're going to get female villains like the Grand High Witch, Alti, Callisto, or Jadis, female villains with varied motivations and backstories, that aren't just about getting with guys, are genuinely threatening to the men around them, do all the things male villains used to do like try and take over the universe, destroy planets etc, with as much frequency for a long time.  Most female villains for the time being are going to be crappy Missy, Zelena, modern day Maleficent types, IE turned bad because a guy doesn't give them attention, their whole motive is to be with some male character and despite doing hideously evil things we're going to go easier on them because they are women and women are such delicate, cute, pigglity little creatures we can't expect them to be held to the same moral standard as men. If a woman finds the right man to hold her in the night, it doesn't matter how awful she is, she'll be cured of her hysterical attention seeking LOL. 

Ironically the reason these villains are more prominent is due to both sides of the culture war. Feminists take it too far and don't want ANY negative portrayal of women in the genre, completely unaware of the fact that actually villains often make the most charismatic and popular characters. Also nothing wrong with having an evil bitch, as long as you don't say she is evil because she's a woman. Sadly however again the feminist side of fandom will get angry if there are too many evil women. I remember Joss Whedon even before the backlash got called a sexist for having too many female villains in Buffy. 

However the fandom menace, conservative side are just as bad. These guys go too much the other way in response to the silly trend of just turning male characters into women to give women representation. I of course agree with them that generally speaking it is better to give women original characters. (In fact I was saying it back in 2014 when a lot of these guys were praising Missy) but the fandom menace are now going on about how we need to see more feminine characters all the time to really represent women. Sadly their view of feminine is naturally old fashioned and conservative, IE a woman is happier in the home, women aren't interested in the bigger picture, just in having families, women can't go longer without men, than men can without women, men are more likely to be geniuses, even the strongest woman can't ever hope to threaten an average man physically. These are the kind of thing guys like Dave Cullen come out with, and with that in mind, is it any wonder that they'll prefer a female villain like Missy to one like Alti or Jadis or the Grand High Witch?

In their minds female villains like the latter, will be women trying to act like men, where as Missy whose whole thing is.... she wants a man, the Doctor, isn't interested in conquering the universe, is happier when she settles down with a guy, is more sensitive and womanly and cries over bad things she's done etc. In their minds that's a successful female villain. 

It's a shame but a further reminder of why the culture war needs to die. 

[Ludders II]

Burun has said some of mine, so let's get those out of the way.  
In no particular order:

1. The Daleks.

Have been fascinated with the 'wee salt shakers' since my age was still in single figures. When I was a kid my uncle gave me a copy of the 1964 Dalek Book, and their comic strip adventures through the '60s and '70s were almost as important to me as the TV series. They gave the Daleks their own canon without the Doctor, and to this day the Golden Emperor is the Emperor to me. I was disappointed he was never in the TV series.    I love Big Finish's Dalek Empire series too. Apart from IV, which is shit. And the two Dalek movies from the '60s, (especially the second one).
I could say a lot more, but this will suffice.





2. Dracula.

Again another childhood rooted thing. At 10 years old I got to see my first Dracula movie on a tiny black and white tv with a snowy reception from inside a crappy tin can caravan in Bridlington. I'd gone for the weekend with a school mate and his mum and dad, and all it did was piss it down the whole time.
As a treat, we were allowed to say up to watch the late night horror movie, which happened to be Dracula: Prince of Darkness, starring Christopher Lee, who is as much Dracula to me as Jon Pertwee is the Doctor. A life-long interest in Hammer, and British horror movies and vampire films of the period was born.



3. The Master.

For me, there are only really 3 versions of the Master that do it for me. Obviously, Delgado is the top dog. Nobody that followed had his charisma and character. I like Peter Pratt's crispy Master, and I think he does a great job, but it's almost like a different character. But obviously this was really the only way to bring the character back, short of a full-blown regen, and overall Peter Pratt manages to sell it well. Beevers inherited it, and does a pretty good job, but it's his voice that sells it best in the BF audios.
I've always seen Ainley as a poundland Delgdo I'm afraid. He's not bad, but doesn't really cut it for me in the long run.
TVM/NuWho versions can get f*cked. American shite followed by.... utter shite on all levels.




4. The Romulans.

The Klingons are done to death, and the Romulans are far more interesting, and way cooler. Apart from that last Trek movie which was shite. Running out of time to say more, but they're fave Original Trek villians. 





5 Sutekh. 

Yeah I know, more Who. 
As a one-off villian, Sutekh was the best for me.
Out of time, will have to do a part 2 later. (Non-Who) 

[burrunjor]

Apr 2, 2024 14:01:02 GMT Ludders II said:

Burun has said some of mine, so let's get those out of the way.  
In no particular order:

1. The Daleks.

Have been fascinated with the 'wee salt shakers' since my age was still in single figures. When I was a kid my uncle gave me a copy of the 1964 Dalek Book, and their comic strip adventures through the '60s and '70s were almost as important to me as the TV series. They gave the Daleks their own canon without the Doctor, and to this day the Golden Emperor is the Emperor to me. I was disappointed he was never in the TV series.    I love Big Finish's Dalek Empire series too. Apart from IV, which is shit. And the two Dalek movies from the '60s, (especially the second one).
I could say a lot more, but this will suffice.





2. Dracula.

Again another childhood rooted thing. At 10 years old I got to see my first Dracula movie on a tiny black and white tv with a snowy reception from inside a crappy tin can caravan in Bridlington. I'd gone for the weekend with a school mate and his mum and dad, and all it did was piss it down the whole time.
As a treat, we were allowed to say up to watch the late night horror movie, which happened to be Dracula: Prince of Darkness, starring Christopher Lee, who is as much Dracula to me as Jon Pertwee is the Doctor. A life-long interest in Hammer, and British horror movies and vampire films of the period was born.



3. The Master.

For me, there are only really 3 versions of the Master that do it for me. Obviously, Delgado is the top dog. Nobody that followed had his charisma and character. I like Peter Pratt's crispy Master, and I think he does a great job, but it's almost like a different character. But obviously this was really the only way to bring the character back, short of a full-blown regen, and overall Peter Pratt manages to sell it well. Beevers inherited it, and does a pretty good job, but it's his voice that sells it best in the BF audios.
I've always seen Ainley as a poundland Delgdo I'm afraid. He's not bad, but doesn't really cut it for me in the long run.
TVM/NuWho versions can get f*cked. American shite followed by.... utter shite on all levels.




4. The Romulans.

The Klingons are done to death, and the Romulans are far more interesting, and way cooler. Apart from that last Trek movie which was shite. Running out of time to say more, but they're fave Original Trek villians. 





5 Sutekh. 

Yeah I know, more Who. 
As a one-off villian, Sutekh was the best for me.
Out of time, will have to do a part 2 later. (Non-Who) 

I think Ainley suffered from being in more lackluster stories. The Davison era Master stories barring the first and last are mostly utter crap. He is great in the Five Doctors mind you, but it's a shame that it comes at the expense of the Cybermen, and it's also not his story anyway. 

However I will defend Ainley on the basis of Survival alone which is one of the best Master stories and one of the best portrayals of him. 

Eric Roberts meanwhile, well I don't know if its because what came after was so toe curlingly awful, that maybe I'm a bit easier on him, but I at least get the impression that he's meant to be a version of the Master. He might be a bit Hollywood, but they've got the basic characterisation down right. The only problem I really had with him was that it was just the same basic plot as The Deadly Assassin again, only nowhere near as well done. 

Master is dying, needs a new body, his old body is even decaying, and he dupes a guy into helping him who he then kills, he plans to open the eye of harmony to restore his life, and doesn't care about destroying a planet in the process and even "dies" by falling into the eye after a fight with the Doctor over it. 

I'm amazed people don't criticise the movie for that more often, though granted that's probably because the half human bit is such a shit retcon. 

[burrunjor]

It's funny actually now that I think about it Alti and the Master really would make the perfect couple, as they are kind of the same villain. I'm not saying she was inspired by the Master (though it's worth mentioning one episode with Alti does contain a direct reference to DW. When she sends people through time, the makers of the show deliberately copied the Tom Baker intro for the time tunnel effect.) 

Still they are pretty much the same villain in the following ways. 

Both are sadistic, power hungry, sociopaths who literally thrive on hatred. She says it feeds her, her says it keeps him alive. 

Both are manipulative, suave and twist people's minds and are quite predatory that way, which ties into the idea that they love having control over people. 

Both were once members of a benevolent organisation, the Amazons in her case and the Time Lords in his, until they were kicked out because of their insane lust for power. 

Both once knew the hero years ago before the show began, and were there during their formative years, and at first think that the hero might still be a potential ally that they can use, not out of any affection, just because they know how powerful the hero is, but when it becomes obvious that isn't the case they both turn on the hero and become obsessed with destroying them. 

Both die regularly and come back. However this isn't like the Joker or Davros where they are left in situations they can't escape from, but somehow do. They do actually die but thanks to her magic powers, or the Masters advanced science they come back. (Both also try to and succeed in stealing others bodies.

Both also physically jump from one extreme to another in terms of attractiveness. Sometimes Alti and the Master embody the idea of evil being sexy. Roger Delgado and Anthony Ainley were obviously very handsome and striking looking men, whilst Claire Stansfield is an Amazon goddess, and is sex on legs in the Roman and modern day episodes. However in other stories where their resurrection goes wrong they embody the idea of evil being ugly and monstrous. In fact both have literally been skeletons. The burned Master as we all know is a walking skeleton, and one of Alti's resurrection's goes wrong in one episode and she comes back as a hideous skeleton monster too. Others meanwhile like the cheetah Master, or Eric Roberts decaying version or Alti in her first episode where she is covered in blood are similarly more gruesome and frightening looking.  




Both also rely on their mental powers, like the Masters hypnotism, and Alti's magic stare which can make a person experience pain from their past and later future and later past and future lives at once. This means both actors have to stare a lot in the show, but both manage it again due to having such striking faces. 

Both also finally represent the same role in their respective series. In both Xena and DW at that point we had two villains in each show who were hugely popular and iconic, but who had kind of run out of steam due to overuse, the Daleks and the Cybermen, Ares and Callisto. (In both cases there were other reasons like Terry Nation not wanting to use them and Callisto's actress quitting.) 

So in both shows a new villain was needed, and Alti and the Master were both designed to not only have links to the heroes past, but be more of a threat (as the Master is a Time Lord, whilst Alti's magic powers give her an advantage over Callisto.) Both would go on to be the main villains of the show from then on. 

Overall she's more of a female Master than Missy ever was LMFAO. My head canon therefore is that at some point after the 96 movie where he genuinely died, the Masters soul was taken by Alti who steals souls from the afterlife and enslaves them as her minions. The Master however charmed her in his usual way and had more luck with her than he did with the Rani and they got together, shagged, and had a child. 



Master and Alti together.

They tried to raise their child to follow in their footsteps, but the Doctor took pity on their child after facing them and took it back to his universe and gave it to the time lords in the hopes that it could be raised properly, but then the untempered schism and the time war happened, and their love child tried to live up to his parents legacy as Simm and later tried to take after his mother more as Gomez (who does look a bit like Claire Stansfield it must be said LOL.) Obviously however she failed at living up to both badly and was a disgrace to her parents. 

Would explain well everything to do with Missy and Simm LOL. The sudden gender change, the Doctor feeling that there is a decent person underneath and feeling responsible which he never did, the sudden f*cking drums after never mentioning them etc. Hey it's a better head canon than what TV Tropes actually have on their page about the Master that's supposed to be factual and which Big Finish have done all they can to make canon. (Remember this is what I got banned for life for editing in FACTS about the characters history like the original intention for them to be warring brothers.) 

"Apart from the Daleks, the Master is Doctor Who's most persistent individual enemy. The villain is another renegade Time Lord from Gallifrey, conceived as the Moriarty to the Doctor's Holmes. The Master was the Doctor's friend (or maybe more) when they were students at the Academy, and the Doctor still hopes they'll reconcile again someday. The Master, on the other hand, can never quite decide between wanting to kill the Doctor or wanting to spend as much time with them as possible — or, occasionally, both. The one thing all Masters can agree on is that if anyone else tries to kill the Doctor, then all bets are off as to that person's continued existence because, when they do defeat the Doctor, they are going to have the pleasure of doing it and no-one else is. This does, of course, lead to the Master frequently betraying their allies when they get too close to killing the Doctor.

Although the character started out calm and collected, as the years have gone on the numerous incarnations of the Master have fallen off the cliff and skidded down the hill into a more and more unhinged madness, losing bits and pieces of sanity with each new body. Extremely camp in any incarnation and a constant source of Foe Romance Subtext to the Doctor — with the Psycho Ex subtext between them gradually becoming explicit over the years, though the specifics vary Depending on the Writer."

Yeah I like my head canon better. 

[rushy]

I'll defend Ainley purely on the basis of Destiny of the Doctors 

[burrunjor]

Apr 2, 2024 20:06:29 GMT rushy said:

I'll defend Ainley purely on the basis of Destiny of the Doctors 

I hate to say, but it's better than The End of Time Rushy. A lot better. 

[Deleted]

I have to agree with Ludders on Ainley. He was a fine actor but no match for Delgado. Didn't help that they put him in very similar attire and gave him a goatee and slickback, making the "downgrade" all the more noticeable. He comes across like a pantomime actor pretending to be the original Master. He mainly starred in forgotten, lacklustre stories, unnecessarily shoehorned into plots that didn't concern him, which to be fair happened with Delgado as well but his charisma made it worthwhile. I think his most notable story by far, like Burrunjor said, is Survival, which is saying a lot considering it's not remarked upon much by general fandom other than for the fact it was the last story to be aired. Other than that, he wasn't in any of the "classics", which is a crying shame because if they'd approached it from a different angle than just trying to copy Delgado, and had given him some great scripts to work with, Ainley could have been incredible as the "other" Master of Classic Who.

I did think they went the right route at first with Simm by making him a more grounded Master in human clothes, but as soon as the "I'm CrAzY" schtick starts up it's just total eye-rolling from me. Missy is a complex case, because I disagree on all levels with Time-Lords being able to change their genders. However, I do think Michelle Gomez is a great actress and had she been playing a villainous female character who wasn't the Master, I probably would've appreciated her a lot more. The only things that really grate me are those "down with the kids" moments like the Hey Missy nonsense and stuff like her dabbing in World Enough and Time, which to be fair is purely down to Moffat being out of touch. Sacha Dhawan for me was the best part of the Chibnall era; yeah, they screw up his characterisation because of course they do, the writers are incompetent. But it's honestly the first time since Delgado that he's felt truly scary and, again, what a crying shame that he will in all likelihood be retired in the RTD2 era and never seen again, mostly uncelebrated by wider fandom.

It's a character who's had a rocky history, to say the least, and who was gotten wrong more often than right. Perhaps that speaks to the quality of Delgado's original portrayal, or maybe that archetype doesn't quite work in the modern world and all attempts at updating him have thus far failed. I'm just curious to see what RTD2 will make of him.

[Cherry Pepsi Maxil]

Terry Silver (The Karate Kid Part III/Cobra Kai)

A cocaine addicted billionaire who has nothing better to do with his time than torment a teenager for winning a high school karate championship. 



The funny thing is he's STILL tormenting him, 35 years on. Never change, Terry.  

A master criminal or a sick loser? Either way, he's brilliant. 





Esteban Calderone (Miami Vice)




A great villain when he's not on screen. He's so much more effective scheming from afar and getting others to do his dirty work. He doesn't have quite the same menace when he appears in the series which is presumably why he's in only two episodes with a screentime of about five minutes. Still, the hits he orders and the absolute hell he puts our two Vice heroes through is enough to get him on the list.


Hans Gruber (Die Hard)


Doesn't need much explaining really. Die Hard is my favourite movie, but it wouldn't half as good without this mastermind in it. 

[rushy]

Apr 2, 2024 20:10:05 GMT burrunjor said:

I hate to say, but it's better than The End of Time Rushy. A lot better.

[rushy]

Apr 2, 2024 20:13:15 GMT @theyakemperor said:

But it's honestly the first time since Delgado that he's felt truly scary

genuinely baffled by this. Dhawan always came off like an introvert struggling to act over the top. Say what you will about Simm, but he at least sells the fact that he's insane.

I like Dhawan more than Gomez on the basis that he at least vaguely resembles the character (being a prideful, spiteful person not a desperate ex-girlfriend), but he is easily the weakest official actor.

[Deleted]

Apr 2, 2024 20:44:08 GMT rushy said:

Apr 2, 2024 20:13:15 GMT @theyakemperor said:

But it's honestly the first time since Delgado that he's felt truly scary

genuinely baffled by this. Dhawan always came off like an introvert struggling to act over the top. Say what you will about Simm, but he at least sells the fact that he's insane.

I like Dhawan more than Gomez on the basis that he at least vaguely resembles the character (being a prideful, spiteful person not a desperate ex-girlfriend), but he is easily the weakest official actor.

The best bits of Simm were when he was cool and collected, like when he talks on the phone with the Doctor. That's what he should've been. He's rendered completely non-threatening by his zany moments.

[burrunjor]

Apr 2, 2024 20:13:15 GMT @theyakemperor said:

I have to agree with Ludders on Ainley. He was a fine actor but no match for Delgado. Didn't help that they put him in very similar attire and gave him a goatee and slickback, making the "downgrade" all the more noticeable. He comes across like a pantomime actor pretending to be the original Master. He mainly starred in forgotten, lacklustre stories, unnecessarily shoehorned into plots that didn't concern him, which to be fair happened with Delgado as well but his charisma made it worthwhile. I think his most notable story by far, like Burrunjor said, is Survival, which is saying a lot considering it's not remarked upon much by general fandom other than for the fact it was the last story to be aired. Other than that, he wasn't in any of the "classics", which is a crying shame because if they'd approached it from a different angle than just trying to copy Delgado, and had given him some great scripts to work with, Ainley could have been incredible as the "other" Master of Classic Who.

I did think they went the right route at first with Simm by making him a more grounded Master in human clothes, but as soon as the "I'm CrAzY" schtick starts up it's just total eye-rolling from me. Missy is a complex case, because I disagree on all levels with Time-Lords being able to change their genders. However, I do think Michelle Gomez is a great actress and had she been playing a villainous female character who wasn't the Master, I probably would've appreciated her a lot more. The only things that really grate me are those "down with the kids" moments like the Hey Missy nonsense and stuff like her dabbing in World Enough and Time, which to be fair is purely down to Moffat being out of touch. Sacha Dhawan for me was the best part of the Chibnall era; yeah, they screw up his characterisation because of course they do, the writers are incompetent. But it's honestly the first time since Delgado that he's felt truly scary and, again, what a crying shame that he will in all likelihood be retired in the RTD2 era and never seen again, mostly uncelebrated by wider fandom.

It's a character who's had a rocky history, to say the least, and who was gotten wrong more often than right. Perhaps that speaks to the quality of Delgado's original portrayal, or maybe that archetype doesn't quite work in the modern world and all attempts at updating him have thus far failed. I'm just curious to see what RTD2 will make of him.

What did you think of the burned Master? He and Delgado take it in turns to be my favourite. 

Meanwhile I think that the Master would work brilliantly in a modern setting. The problem with the Master isn't that he can't be updated, it's the people actively don't want to update him. It's the same with the Cybermen to be honest. 

For some reason, the Daleks and Davros seem to be the only two genuinely popular villains out of the big four. At least among writers, or rather the Fitzroy generation (though the Cybermen got this from the original writers too apart from Saward.) Everybody who comes to the Master and the Cybermen assumes they are shit villains who are only being brought back for nostalgia and tries to do something else, thinking no one will really care, because they didn't have anything interesting anyway and not surprisingly, it doesn't work. Or alternatively they use them as generic villains to prop up lame stories. Basically what happened to Venom due to Sam Raimi in Spider-Man 3, has happened to these guys all the time. 

Bob Holmes was EXACTLY like Sam Raimi and Venom. He was a pretentious snob who decided that recurring villains were stupid, and only the idiot long term viewers wanted them back for nostalgia, so he didn't bother to even try to do anything with the Cybermen (Revenge was written by him but credited to Gerry Davies.) Again like Raimi with Venom, the sad irony was the Cybermen would have been perfectly suited to his style. Holmes does stories about body horror which is their whole thing, stories about people being turned into monsters (Wirren, Scarman, Androgum), stories about creatures who were once powerful but have fallen from grace and often have to work with a shady human to restore their power like Tobais Vaughn, Cleeg (Sutekh, Magnus Greel, Sharaz Jek) and he loves stories that have a gothic theme to them and are pastiches of old horror movies. Tomb of the Cybermen is basically all of those things rolled into one! It's the precursor to the Hinchcliff era. Yet he didn't bother with any of that, and again wrote them as generic foes and then like Raimi bitched about how the story was bad because he had to include a popular villain due to idiot fans in his precious writing. Again love Holmes and Raimi's work overall to be clear LOL. Those guys are my childhood, but yeah even the best can be short sighted snobs at times and it's important to call them out on it. 

RTD meanwhile thought the idea of the Cybermen converting people was dated and stupid, so he replaced it with a body swap that took a lot away from what they were, he also threw out their backstory with the alternate earth crap again due to his contempt for the old series, and he also felt they were less colourful and interesting than the Daleks, so he gave them catchphrases like DELETE and their own Cyber Davros etc. In the Moffat era well Moff went for the approach of just using them as generic villains to prop up lame stories, like in Closing Time, whilst Neil Gaiman clearly had no love for them, hence why the slow painful process of cyber conversion is gone, the claustrophobic idea of them sneaking up on you is gone as they have super speed, and the idea of them as emotionless creatures is gone, as we have the Cyber controller dancing on tables, flirting with Jenna Coleman and being beaten by the Doctor playing on his ego! 

The one story where someone actually thinks "you know the Cybermen are a creepy idea, let's actually exploit that" is World Enough and Time and The Doctor Falls. Whilst not perfect due to the sjw crap at that stage, at least Moff was clearly trying to write a Cyberman story and did a brilliant job of making them absolutely terrifying with Bill's conversion. Sadly however that seems to be it. 

The Master meanwhile is the same applies. Unlike Ludders. For the 80s as we've been over a lot of the time he was written as a generic foe to prop up lame stories like in Timeflight and Kings Demons. In the revival meanwhile the Fitzroy Crowd REALLY hate the Master. Hence why they didn't bother to use him for years in Big Finish or spin off material and why when they had too for the show, in all instances they did their own thing. 

RTD gave him a new origin, new relationship with the Doctor, wrote him as the Joker, gave him new electric powers and again threw out any story arcs with him from the original. Moffat well he openly admitted to despising the villain multiple times, refused to bring him back during the entire Matt Smith era, and then when he had to, to set up a female Doctor he again just did his own thing and reused his old femme fatale cliche. 

Chibnall finally I think just went for the, make him a generic villain and use him to prop up someone else's story. Really is there any reason for Spyfall to actually be a Master story? Similarly his only role in the Timeless Children was exposition. I do agree that Sacha Dahwan was vastly superior in every way to Missy and Simm, but yeah his Master was still fairly generic.