Does RTD have a habit of ruining his own finales?

[burrunjor]

Feb 27, 2024 21:16:06 GMT Cherry Pepsi Maxil said:

Feb 27, 2024 20:26:18 GMT burrunjor said:

Completely agree about Silver Nemesis. A lot of people just write it off as a Remembrance clone, but it's actually got a lot of interesting stuff in it. You've got black magic, the English countryside, castles, crypts, Nazis, Cybermen... pretty much a check list of things I'm very interested in. 

The writer of Silver Nemesis was a Paul Darrow type of a writer LOL. 

Based on what Rushy has told us, Paul Darrow is one of these guys who just doesn't care what he's writing. He'll fill it full of whatever he loves, western tropes, action movie cliches, gun fights etc. 

That's pretty much what Silver Nemesis is, as the guy who wrote it loved WW2 action films like the Dirty Dozen, Where Eagles Dare etc, so he threw in Nazi villains. He also loved Jazz, so now the Doctor loves Jazz and it plays an important role in stopping the Cybermen by blocking their transmissions (also there is a nice in joke that the Cybermen who rely on logic can't understand it, as Jazz is known for being unpredictable,) Finally he loved Jacobian theatre and was interested in black magic and the supernatural, so those get thrown in too LOL.

I think that type of writing is brilliant, but it usually works better when it's your own creations for obvious reasons of you can make it flow more naturally than try and reshape an existing thing. In the case of Silver Nemesis' however, it works as it's not too intrusive and actually, throwing all of those things together does make use of what DW does best, which is bring an eclectic mix of characters, genres, styles and settings together that could never exist otherwise. To be honest in that respect it's actually more creative than Remembrance of the Daleks, which is more straight forward. However Remembrance is the better story overall, as it has much better supporting characters, let's the Daleks be centre stage, and has much better direction and action (apart from the Cyberman vs Nazis fight a lot of the action in Silver Nemesis is underwhelming. Ace killing them is well done on Sophie and the directors part, but it's let down by how useless it makes them, being killed by slingshots and tricked into shooting each other LOL. Remembrance managed to make Ace look badass and not undermine the Daleks.) 

Still one other area that Silver Nemesis has over Remembrance was that it set the tone for what was to come. It is the first McCoy story that features a supernatural element, and it was quite a bold story in that it didn't explain the supernatural element. Really only State of Decay and the Toymaker had been that bold. In all three cases however they were smart not to say the supernatural was the real deal, but they left it open ended. This would pretty much be the defining style for the McCoy era from then on. Every single story after Silver Nemesis is a supernatural story. Indeed the McCoy era is for all intents and purposes a science fantasy series, so yeah Silver Nemesis in that respect is important.

Remembrance is still ultimately the better adventure, but Silver Nemesis shouldn't be dismissed as quickly as it is (and I'm not saying that just because Sophie is in it LOL. For the record I'm not overly keen on Dragonfire.) 

[rushy]

I'd just like to add that these kinds of writers are usually the most sincere ones you can find. They don't think they're geniuses or try to reinvent the wheel. It's purely about having fun. Even when they make no sense and distort the canon to a far more egregious degree than stuff like the Timeless Child, it's hard to hate them because there's no pretentiousness to what they do.

That being said, it's not quite accurate to say Darrow didn't care what he was writing - he did try to craft a worthy finale for Avon and Orac, develop their characters and give them some depth beyond what we saw in the show (in his own eccentric way). The idea that Avon is becoming increasingly machine-like and dead inside while Orac is becoming more and more human is one of his most inspired. I also found it interesting that he developed Avon's nihilism to its logical endpoint - a desire to commit suicide.

[burrunjor]

Feb 27, 2024 23:05:36 GMT rushy said:

I'd just like to add that these kinds of writers are usually the most sincere ones you can find. They don't think they're geniuses or try to reinvent the wheel. It's purely about having fun. Even when they make no sense and distort the canon to a far more egregious degree than stuff like the Timeless Child, it's hard to hate them because there's no pretentiousness to what they do.

That being said, it's not quite accurate to say Darrow didn't care what he was writing - he did try to craft a worthy finale for Avon and Orac, develop their characters and give them some depth beyond what we saw in the show (in his own eccentric way). The idea that Avon is becoming increasingly machine-like and dead inside while Orac is becoming more and more human is one of his most inspired. I also found it interesting that he developed Avon's nihilism to its logical endpoint - a desire to commit suicide.

Oh obviously he cared about telling a good story, I just meant that he was willing to throw in things that might not have gelled with B7 on tv just because he loved them. Same with that novelisation of the game he was in that Queen did the music for. I believe you talked about in another thread?

Hey I'm the same. The name of my channel after is Divas, Dinosaurs and Demons and in case you haven't noticed I love all three of those things LOL. (I mean Divas in the female singer sense, not the insult. In fact the idea for the name came from an interview with Amy named the Diva and her Demons.) 

[rushy]

Feb 27, 2024 23:14:26 GMT burrunjor said:

Oh obviously he cared about telling a good story, I just meant that he was willing to throw in things that might not have gelled with B7 on tv just because he loved them. Same with that novelisation of the game he was in that Queen did the music for. I believe you talked about in another thread?

Speaking of that, I love the little Terry Nation reference he wrote in

“What were Dubroc’s orders?”
“Seek and locate.”
“Ah, well he’s done that. I shall have to discipline some of my guards. It seems they made Dubroc’s task a little too easy.”
Lamar had paused for effect. “And destroy,” he added.

[rushy]

I've been busy copying the book word-for-word so I could have a pdf or epub version of it, just because it's so incredibly rare. Preserving it for posterity and all that.

[burrunjor]

Feb 27, 2024 23:20:21 GMT rushy said:

I've been busy copying the book word-for-word so I could have a pdf or epub version of it, just because it's so incredibly rare. Preserving it for posterity and all that.

Good for you. It's important to preserve past works. Be an Ian Levine rather than a Benjamin Cook. 

[rushy]

I don't know if I should share it or not. Technically, it is still being sold online (on two websites, for 400 pounds/500 dollars respectively), but I've no idea who owns the copyright anymore. EA? Queen itself? Would they care? Even the few people who know about the game seemed unaware the book existed when I talked to them.

Seems more likely that they're just thrift stores getting rid of some ancient content.

[rushy]

I love how you can just hear Darrow's voice narrating it. The way he writes is so unique:

In three score years and ten, the state of the World may not matter to you. But it will matter to your children and their children.

Seventy years from now will come the time of the Eye.

Preceding him will rise up the ultimate arbiter of Armageddon - Nature. She will almost destroy the Earth as we know it. "Civilisation" will survive, simply because mankind is brutal enough to cast off the shackles of conscience and revert to predatory instincts.

Enter The Eye.

The Eye intends to finish nature's work and bend the World and its inhabitants to his will.

Through a solitary giant oculus, The Eye is able to project itself into human forms. The World turns and the "human" Eye, whilst overcoming many enemies, secures the support of the much reduced population.

But The Eye becomes bored and introduces a different kind of game, a game he believes he cannot lose. Many attempt and fail.

There is but one man with the vision to defeat The Eye.

His name is Dubroc.

[Cherry Pepsi Maxil]

I read the first Lucifer novel. I didn't mind it. Darrow seemed to have a keen eye for military detail and vehicles.

I never read the others, preferring to stick with the novelizations of some of the early episodes.

[Cherry Pepsi Maxil]

Feb 27, 2024 23:21:51 GMT burrunjor said:

Feb 27, 2024 23:20:21 GMT rushy said:

I've been busy copying the book word-for-word so I could have a pdf or epub version of it, just because it's so incredibly rare. Preserving it for posterity and all that.

Good for you. It's important to preserve past works. Be an Ian Levine rather than a Benjamin Cook. 

Yeah, be an Ian Levine but don't start pestering members of the Coburn family  

[burrunjor]

Feb 28, 2024 13:20:15 GMT Cherry Pepsi Maxil said:

Feb 27, 2024 23:21:51 GMT burrunjor said:

Good for you. It's important to preserve past works. Be an Ian Levine rather than a Benjamin Cook. 

Yeah, be an Ian Levine but don't start pestering members of the Coburn family  

As long as nobody betrays his precious trust we'll be fine. 

[rushy]

Feb 28, 2024 13:17:32 GMT Cherry Pepsi Maxil said:

I read the first Lucifer novel. I didn't mind it. Darrow seemed to have a keen eye for military detail and vehicles.

I never read the others, preferring to stick with the novelizations of some of the early episodes.

The second one is easily the best, as it goes back to the old formula of Avon flying around the universe getting into scrapes. Plus, the glorious banter between him and Orac.

Ignore the third one if you want to keep your sanity.