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Post by rushy on Jan 8, 2024 17:09:39 GMT
You absolutely cannot have them go on forever. That's not feasible in any way shape or form. Obviously I'm not saying split ever doctor into a new universe. Simply split each production into a new universe You don't need a multiverse for that. The people making Doctor Who don't want to create a new universe, because there's no point to it. The actors change anyway. It's easier to keep it one continuity, and keep hold of the fan investment. Or at least it would be if they didn't randomly f*ck with the canon. As long as Doctor Who lasts, it can last in one canon. The only thing standing in the way of that is shit writers. It is not the fault of the endlessly flexible formula of Doctor Who that they're too incompetent to use it properly. If I was magically in charge of the show tomorrow, I wouldn't bother making it a new production either. I'd just move on and keep everything the Fitzroys did because I have a show to sell and there's a lot of fans out there still attached to their work. If I do my job well, then both classic and new fans can get into my version of the show. And I know they can, because people on this forum were willing to give RTD's new take a shot despite everything they'd been put through.
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Post by burrunjor on Jan 8, 2024 18:16:53 GMT
You absolutely cannot have them go on forever. That's not feasible in any way shape or form. Obviously I'm not saying split ever doctor into a new universe. Simply split each production into a new universe You don't need a multiverse for that. The people making Doctor Who don't want to create a new universe, because there's no point to it. The actors change anyway. It's easier to keep it one continuity, and keep hold of the fan investment. Or at least it would be if they didn't randomly f*ck with the canon. As long as Doctor Who lasts, it can last in one canon. The only thing standing in the way of that is shit writers. It is not the fault of the endlessly flexible formula of Doctor Who that they're too incompetent to use it properly. If I was magically in charge of the show tomorrow, I wouldn't bother making it a new production either. I'd just move on and keep everything the Fitzroys did because I have a show to sell and there's a lot of fans out there still attached to their work. If I do my job well, then both classic and new fans can get into my version of the show. And I know they can, because people on this forum were willing to give RTD's new take a shot despite everything they'd been put through. If it's all one canon nothing matters. That is the truth of it. Even in something with as flexible a formula as DW, the continuity will get too overbearing eventually. Yes each individual version of DW can have a long life, as the actor changes and he can travel anywhere, but ultimately no it gets to a point where even with that, the past is too overbearing. Tell me if DW is going to be on in the 22nd century are you still going to follow canon from 1963? Don't say DW won't be going on then. It will if there are still people. Robin Hood who doesn't have as wide a premise has had new stories told for hundreds of years. The answer is obviously NO, we won't be following the same canon then, in which case, why not make it official? Actually end the original's story, rather than either come up with some stupid time has been erased retcon that actually undermines all of those previous stories, or again lazily just ignoring them in which case why even bother having continuity in the first place? That's where the "it all has to be one story" people piss me off. Their very argument is a contradiction in terms. "I want it to all be one story, it has to be the same continuity or else its not DW." Okay that means we will have to be very restrictive as time goes on and the continuity becomes larger and it also means we'll have to keep undoing characters stories coming to their natural end. "Eh no continuity doesn't matter." That's where rejecting the multiverse, the logical solution to those comes over as just petty and being against it because of some crappy Marvel multiverse movies. And no chances are on average you won't be able to win round classic and new who fans. I'm not saying there isn't a lot of crossover between them. I myself enjoy a bit of new who, and obviously there are people here who are fans of both on an anti new who forum LOL. However on average I wouldn't say those shows appeal to the same general audiences. A lot of fans of new who, not surprisingly just have a different view of the Doctor than we do. Again look at my friend Claudia Boleyn. She likes a bit of Classic Who too, like Patrick Troughton (her favourite), but overall sees the Doctor through a new who lens. She finds him a more romantic character, a more emotional, tortured one, and somebody that can change into absolutely anybody. She also favours characters arcs, wants to focus on the companions personal life and journey etc. That's a stark contrast with say me and someone like Iank who want the Doctor to be a dusty old professor, very stiff upper lip and a bit more distant, are very strict about him not being able to turn into absolutely anyone and following a loose template, and want the focus on monsters, aliens and journey to other planets. Of course you can say well Pertwee's era was different to Hartnell via the historicals and spy espionage stories and that's true, but not to the same extent. You can reconcile Pertwee and Hartnell as being the same as both are still dusty old professors who follow that template, focus is still on adventure and sci fi aspects rather than the companions home life etc. They are different variations of the same take. BTW this isn't a thing of chicks don't care about sci fi. To start with DW had a majority female audience in America in the 1980s where it was more popular, and second I think guy new who fans are even less likely to enjoy the classic era Doctor than say Claudia Boleyn types who might check him out out of curiosity. A lot of guy fans came to Tennant and Smith, because they found those Doctors to be more relatable action heroes. Nerdy, uncool, quirky guys like them, but who were charismatic and got the girls for all those reasons. To them the older Doctor is a stuffy old guy who isn't as relatable, and actually I knew a lot of guys who stopped watching after Matt left for that reason. Then you factor in all the LGBT, activism stuff that's been brought into new DW and yeah it's not the same audience overall. Ironically even within itself new who has changed too much with the LGBT activism, as a lot of those guy fans who loved the ladies man Doctor have become even harsher critics of the recent developments for losing their hero. That's where a lot of the fandom menace types like Nerdrotic who liked the original RTD era more than old who, I feel are coming from. That's fine however for these viewers to want different things. As we've been over different versions of Dracula can attract different audiences. Jack Palance went for an audience who prefer gothic love stories, Christopher Lee's Dracula went for horror fans. Neither audience was invalid, and yes there are people who love the concept of Dracula so much they will watch anything with him, and enjoy contrasting wildly different portrayals, and then there are those who may even just try out new versions out of curiosity despite preferring one, but overall both audiences can remain separate and don't have to war with each other over how Dracula should ALWAYS be portrayed, like what we see all the f*cking time with DW, because there isn't only one Dracula canon that everything has to be shoved into. DW needs that kind of freedom. Finally you are completely wrong that fans will just swallow anything, after the canon has been destroyed. I and many others like Clockwork Ocean, Iank, Maxil, Bernard, Rob will NOT give New Who a chance, after the timeless children, Jodie and Missy. (Hell some of them probably go back earlier LOL.) I don't want to speak for anyone but myself of course, but from what I've read from those other fine gentlemen here, we ALL feel that the show and character have been damaged too much beyond repair. I don't want to accept that the official DW canon has that little black girl as the first Doctor instead of William Hartnell, and again it's ten years since Missy and I still don't accept her as the Master and get royally pissed off when I see her listed as official alongside Roger Delgado and Anthony Ainley. We were not in the minority this time meanwhile. Missy saw viewers plummet after her first episode to barely above 3 million for that season 9 opener and they didn't recover again, until Jodie's debut, which was watched for curiosity, and then saw viewers go down again and they have stayed there ever since. Maybe they've gone up and down by like a million or so, but never to the Matt Smith levels. All the attempts to try and bring the old fans back after these changes through member berries have failed every single time. If the return of long standing fan favourites fails to convince viewers that it's the same show, why would just forgetting the past do that? Furthermore all these member berries are putting off potential new fans by making it look reliant on the past. If it was an alternate sequel meanwhile, you could aim it more at a specific audience, rather than trying to please everybody and typically pleasing nobody. That said I DO agree that the crappiness of New Who writing has accelerated the need for an alternate sequel. Ideally I would have wanted DW to run to the 13th Doctor who would have been the last, and then after that, just do reboots and loose sequels in other universes to continue the brand. However the original was cancelled and there were so many alternate sequels in the long while it was away, a sequel in 2005 was always going to struggle to be seen as just the same show come back. However the makes of new who did all they could to reinforce that, so yeah, alternate sequel required.
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Post by burrunjor on Jan 8, 2024 18:28:02 GMT
Imagine if the world in Inferno was created by the Doctor going back and changing things by say stopping WW1 and an accidental side effect of that was the fascists took over. That would completely ruin the ending of the story, because rather than it being a dark, frightening story where the Doctor fails to save 7 billion people, now it would all be undone as the timeline would be restored, meaning that.......... nothing in the story mattered. Does that by Rushy's Halloween comparison mean that time travel stories should never, EVER be used because in this case this particular story it would be shit? You're ignoring that I specifically pointed out "Inferno" and "Rise of the Cybermen" as the type of story that works with the multiverse concept. Stargate did it as well, countless times, I don't mind it there. It's only when writers use it in the metafictional sense or as a way to cheaply rewrite the rules of a show that it becomes a gimmick. As a tool to tell a one-off story, it's perfectly fine. It's not a gimmick however using it in the way I propose. It's the only logical solution to helping DW as a story and a franchise move on. To be honest though I think you are just disagreeing for the sake of it now, which is fine. Nobody is ever going to admit they were wrong about something on the internet LOL, and even less so when there is a guy being an arrogant shit about it like I am, but really there is no argument against what I'm saying, and the proof of that is the alternative is what we have been witnessing for the last ten years in DW that have dragged it down to the abyss it is in now. Yes the bad writing accelerated it, but those problems would not have existed had there been an alternative. Until DW sees that, there will be no fix for the series. I think we may be running out of time as well.
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Post by rushy on Jan 8, 2024 18:29:42 GMT
There is no argument against what you're saying because you simply don't like/disagree with my arguments, and that's fine. We can just agree to disagree.
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Post by rushy on Jan 8, 2024 18:35:00 GMT
And also, I don't even mind Doctor Who splitting into multiple separate productions with separate canons. I don't think it's necessary AT ALL. James Bond would still probably be in its old canon if they hadn't wanted to adapt Casino Royale. Same can go for Doctor Who. But it's not a killer for me. I just don't want multiverse nonsense related to that.
If you want multiple productions, go nuts. Just keep them separate from each other. Don't make a story about the lot of them coexisting. Just end one show and start another.
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Post by burrunjor on Jan 8, 2024 18:48:45 GMT
And also, I don't even mind Doctor Who splitting into multiple separate productions with separate canons. I don't think it's necessary AT ALL. James Bond would still probably be in its old canon if they hadn't wanted to adapt Casino Royale. Same can go for Doctor Who. But it's not a killer for me. I just don't want multiverse nonsense related to that. If you want multiple productions, go nuts. Just keep them separate from each other. Don't make a story about the lot of them coexisting. Just end one show and start another. THAT is an absolutely fine idea of different productions but no multiverse. I was only suggesting the multiverse idea as a way of making it easier to split them up, as it might look like less of an insult, or openly antagonising, by showing they are all just as illegitimate as each in terms of being the real sequel and it can offer up some creativity in taking what you want from each other, but the main argument that may have ironically been lost in translation because it was presented through the controversial lens of a multiverse, is we get away from the new who timeline. Clean break and different productions of DW can be their own thing and not all be linked and therefore are forced to move on rather than changing the past to make the latest stupid retcon fit. To be honest that might be what has to happen anyway. The Fitzroy Crowd are buggering about with it so much that it is getting hard to have New Who even exist in the same multiverse as the original. For instance RTD's stupid f*cking bi regeneration crap. Granted it wasn't mentioned in the show, so hopefully it can go away, but still that idea that all the Doctors regenerations split off into different universes, is not something I would want in my DW multiverse. That makes it too big and overly complicated and stupid. It's quite funny in a way he does bring a multiverse into it, and typically it's in the stupidest way possible where now every Doctor is a different reality.
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