Dear Russell T Davies

[burrunjor]

Thank you for fixing the jumbled, dreadful mess that DW lore had become thanks to writers adopting the awful continuity doesn't matter, lets give the Doctor 82 different origin stories, we can reboot it by just ignoring everything that came before making every development pointless formula, (seriously if you doubt how bad it was, just look at TARDIS wiki trying to make sense of all this shit in one timeline "according to one account the Doctor was a magic pixie from mars, according to another he was a leading exponent of the Jazz funk movement who was given magic time travel powers by the spirit of Jazz etc".)

Now however thanks to your alternate aged 7th Doctor, we can split the different productions of DW into different universes. Classic Who is one universe, New Who is another, Shalka Who is another, Cushing Who is another, Death Comes to Time is another etc. They all fit, all have clear endings, all are allowed to stand on their own as the different interpretations they actually are, (no more bullshit we have to have Delgado want to shag Pertwee to make it fit with Missy) and yet all are still connected, and viewers are free to choose if classic who is just another timeline, or if it and New Who are linked. Everybody wins from Rob Filth types to Claudia Boleyn types LOL. 

However now that it is finally fixed via the multiverse, PLEASE do not make the following mistakes that DC comics have made with their multiverse. 

1/ Don't hammer it into the ground. Only use it sparingly for the odd great story like Inferno and maybe the very rare crossover story where a classic Doctor like an aged McCoy from another universe has an adventure with another Doctor. Other than that just move ahead and don't ever use it to replace characters who have died either. That pisses off everyone, as on the one hand it makes it look like nothing can ever change, on the other it annoys people who liked those characters, as for us the original we followed and loved for years is still dead, whilst some imposter takes their place. (The Late Philip J Fry did this and an argument can be made that it completely and utterly destroyed Futurama.)

2/ Don't use it to explain away every continuity blip. Only use it for different productions. Classic Who was one production from 1963-1989, so that's one universe/timeline. New Who 2005-2022 is another production so it's another universe (to be fair Bad Wolf Who could follow on from that universe too.) Shalka is another production, another universe etc. Use it that way and you get the best of all worlds, no pun intended. That way you can actually end characters stories in each production, have developments matter as the next production from another team doesn't have to bother with/undermine, rewrite yours. Again though this doesn't mean every Doctor is a new universe. Big difference between a change of actor and even the production team changing behind the scenes and the actual production shutting down and coming to a grinding halt for a decade and it therefore becoming seen as a completed work on its own. Only then or if you want a reboot does the multiverse come into effect.

3/ Please oh please don't do any story where the Classic Whoniverse and the New Whoniverse merge together, or the Cushing Whoniverse merges together in an effort to "fix" the multiverse. Those stories always end up making things even more complicated and end up pissing fans of certain productions off, as obviously some will be superceeded by others in the merging. 

4/ Don't EVER do what DC have done all the f*cking time and destroy previous universes. FFS DC have f*cked up every single version of their characters this way, it's quite remarkable. 

The awful Crisis on Infinite Earth's story is the supreme example of that. It was written by another anti multiverse hipster like Critical Drinker, or the Fandom Menace mob or even the South Park boys based on their recent episode, (I really, REALLY cannot stand anti multiverse hipsters. They are so f*cking shallow and jump on the bandwagon.)

Anyway Crisis on Infinite Earths had every single DC universe get destroyed except for one. This meant that every single DC comic story until that point was undermined. Now whenever you read a Batman comic of the 1970s where he saves someone you think "doesn't matter as everyone in his universe will die in a few years time anyway. His and all the other heroes lives work is pointless" 

They then did the same thing in the awful Arrowverse adaptation of Crisis on Infinite Earths. So many previous DC adaptations stories were undermined,, as their universes were destroyed meaning that everything in them doesn't matter either. These included the 90s Flash tv show, Smallvile, etc. The Flash movie meanwhile did this to the Keaton Batman by having it that his earth gets completely destroyed in 2013 meaning that his first two movies don't matter at all, as again all the good he does in those movies is largely irrelevant as his world will be blown to pieces in a few decades time. It also provides an unsatisfactory conclusion to characters like Catwoman to simply be killed off screen by an alien overlord who doesn't fit with the tone and style of those movies, same applies for characters in The Flash like the Trickster and the Flash's girlfriends Meghan and Tina. 

Do NOT ever do this to the Classic Who universe, or even the Cushing or hell even the Shalka universe. You have no right to undermine other people's works this way, and honestly destroying the previous universes kind of undermines the point of them all existing together anyway. 

This isn't just a warning for Russell, any future writer who takes over the DW franchise, even if you are the biggest anti Multiverse hipster DO NOT do this. These stories are always utter flops. The Flash drove away possibly the only audience it could have had, Keaton fans by doing this, whilst Crisis had to be undone for exactly the reasons I said, whilst finally the tv Crisis basically killed the Arrowverse. 

If all of these mistakes are avoided and we just carry on then yes for the first time in a long while I can be excited about the future of Who. (Though I think we'll need to explore the other universes a bit more in spin off material to make it stronger. Perhaps an animated show with an aged McCoy and Sophie?)

[Deleted]

I wonder if he'll get back to you

Honestly I think it was just a way to explain why McCoy looks so old, I doubt there's any real meaning behind it. I actually hate this multiverse idea personally.

[zarius]

Funny you should bring up precautions about the Futurama thing, because I've had some thoughts about the alternative McCoy and what it means for Ace.

Clearly she was part of this alternative Seven's timeline, so does that mean she is not native to the Nuwho timestream?


For now I'm choosing to believe that in Nu Who canon, Ace from there died per the events of the comic strip "Ground Zero" and this particular Ace replaced her in the prime timeline.

[burrunjor]

Nov 2, 2023 11:19:35 GMT @theyakemperor said:

I wonder if he'll get back to you

Honestly I think it was just a way to explain why McCoy looks so old, I doubt there's any real meaning behind it. I actually hate this multiverse idea personally.

See no offense this is what annoys me about anti Multiverse stuff. Why do you hate it? 

Is it just because the idea's been done to death? Again what popular idea in Hollywood hasn't been done to death at some point? Westerns? Crime thrillers? Martial arts? space operas? Vampire and supernatural shows? Dinosaurs? Why single multiverses out as a bad idea just because it is the latest, and ps hasn't even been used as much as say Westerns which were also far more limited. 

Every single thing you could possibly hate the multiverse for is worse with an alternative. Honestly multiverse is like democracy, it's the worst one except for all those others. I don't have a dog in the fight in terms of "Ohhhhh I love multiverses" It's a conclusion I reached long ago, before the fad (which is what makes it annoying.) 

Okay let's look at why you could hate multiverses and indeed this multiverse idea for Doctor Who and explore the alternative. 

1/ Nothing matters as we can just jump to another universe.

Eh no. Even if we do jump to another universe, then the original is still dead. As I've said before there could be a version of you in another universe who is the emperor of the world. What difference does it make to you? Your consciousness will only ever know this life. You're still different beings. If he died tomorrow your life wouldn't change one bit, and neither would his if you died.  

2/ It's better if we just ignore the timeless children or any other stupid idea than do a multiverse.

Hilariously enough THAT ensures that nothing matters more than a multiverse, and it lets people like Chibnall get away with it. By that logic I could make the next Doctor a racist goat that loves eating live squirrels and your response would still be "let's just ignore that. It doesn't matter that it completely undermined the entire structure of the show and character, we'll just move on." PS it does still matter as now that Goat is part of the shows history. You have to include it alongside all the other proper Doctors. Also if nothing matters, why not blow up the earth, kill the Doctor, reveal everything about him and then say "Nothing matters. Let's just move on with a new Doctor, and reference the earth being blown up for member berries but not bother to explain it."

The multiverse formula that I suggested, actually ensures that things DO matter. Like I said if you use it wisely and have it that each production is a different universe, then you can end stories. If New Who had done this from the start it wouldn't have had to erase the RTD era invasions, it wouldn't have had to bring back Gallifrey, it wouldn't have had to bring back the Master after John Simm, it wouldn't have needed to give the Doctor unlimited regenerations etc. Those could all have been how those characters, stories ended in this universe, but then in say the 2020s, the next production could start a new, ensuring that RTD's story isn't retconned. However when it's all one big story spread out across 200 years, then nothing can ever change in a natural way. You have to keep undoing the end of the Daleks, the Master, the Doctors lives and even for something like DW it gets f*cking tedious after a while. 

3/ It will be too confusing for new viewers. 

Actually no it won't. Again the alternative is a show with 90 years worth of history that nobody knows when to start from, and very few are willing to watch it right the way through. If each production is its own thing, then much like with say Dracula where you can watch just one version you're interested in like Christopher Lee and not bother with Gary Oldman or vice versa, then you can say decide to check out the original, or the revival etc and if you really like it, you will probably be more willing to track down other versions of it, as opposed to it being a big chore you have to do. Meanwhile this allows those of us who do care to have them be linked? What is wrong with that? Again other than just a "I don't like multiverses because of Spider-Verse."

4/ I want DW to all be one story.

Thing is though won't there come a time when it has to abandon its continuity anyway? I mean if humans survive for another 500 years then there most certainly will still be new DW stories being told. King Arthur and Robin Hood have been going for hundreds of years, why not the Doctor (who has a wider range of stories than those characters?) Is DW shown in 2525 going to follow continuity set down in 1963? Of course not! The slate will have to be wiped clean sooner or later, and if you keep it the one canon, then you'll have to do some stupid history is rewritten in universe (which actually makes previous stories pointless and is WAAAAAY more convoluted and has had a history of turkeys) or again just lazily ignore it, because continuity doesn't matter it's just a stupid tv show, which is what leads to the Timeless Children. The multiverse meanwhile provides a clean, simple break, and allows each production to end on its own terms and actually develop too. 

What is wrong with that, other than just the "I hate multiverses because of crappy DC and Marvel films?" Sorry but to me anti multiverse stuff is cutting your nose off to spite your face, just because Hollywood turned it into a fad and it can be overdone to death. It's a logical and practical solution to restore stakes and allow stories to end. 

[Deleted]

Because this is the exact thing I hate about Doctor Who: over-complicated bullshit that means nothing to anyone. Seriously, how hard is it to give us simple stories about a space-hobo fighting aliens every week? I don't want Sylvester McCoy's Doctor to exist in a different universe to David Tennant's. Why would you want that? All that's gonna do is delegitimise the old stuff in the eyes of newer fans. The continuity is what makes the show special, the fact that you're following the very same character as was followed by countless fans in the 60s, 70s, 80s. Multiverse schmultiverse my arse, this is just more Timeless Children-esque babble. I don't even know why you're putting so much importance on this? It was a throwaway line from a writer whose material you probably regard as mostly throwaway anyway.

[burrunjor]

Nov 2, 2023 20:03:49 GMT @theyakemperor said:

Because this is the exact thing I hate about Doctor Who: over-complicated bullshit that means nothing to anyone. Seriously, how hard is it to give us simple stories about a space-hobo fighting aliens every week? I don't want Sylvester McCoy's Doctor to exist in a different universe to David Tennant's. Why would you want that? All that's gonna do is delegitimise the old stuff in the eyes of newer fans. The continuity is what makes the show special, the fact that you're following the very same character as was followed by countless fans in the 60s, 70s, 80s. Multiverse schmultiverse my arse, this is just more Timeless Children-esque babble.

No it's not and I went over that. No offense you didn't read my post, don't blame you, the last guy who did is in his grave. (He only went into a coma, but they thought he was dead and buried him alive.) 

Still if you DO get through my waffle, you see that the whole point is that the multiverse gives you what you want more than the alternatives! It's like democracy in that respect. I honestly don't think anyone ever gets through my multiverse posts and assumes I want a Flash type story.

All the multiverse does if it's used in my format, is allow each production of DW to exist in its own reality which means each production (this is not the same as each individual Doctor, a production is like classic who that ran from 1963=1989 and then had a clear stop, or New Who that ran from 2005=2022 and then had a clear stop) can actually develop characters, can actually end stories, not reset every development, and not be so crippled by its past. A new production meanwhile can still be a loose sequel to classic who, meaning it doesn't delegitimize the old stuff, or it can be a reboot.  PS even if it is a reboot, someone who is interested will track the others down, if they like the character same way people do with different versions of Holmes, Dracula and dozens of other characters that have thrived in this type of format.

All the multiverse does in terms of intruding is allow these different productions to be connected in universe for fans, via a very rare crossover story if you want, which can be fun as seen with No Way Home. That is literally all it is!

Meanwhile like I said this whole "I want it to be the same continuity" is just not rational or well thought out. As I said in the above post are we going to get to the year 2525 and DW is STILL following the same continuity from 1963? If humans survive, then yes there will still be stories being told about DW in 500, even 1000 years. There are still new versions of Robin Hood, King Arthur, Sherlock Holmes, Dracula, Hercules, The Odyssey and the siege of Troy, hundreds and in some cases thousands of years on.

DW has a more variable format than any of those characters and stories, so why shouldn't it still exist for centuries like them? 

With this in mind logically a reboot is inevitable. The only way it is not is if you take the two alternatives. 

1/ You make out continuity doesn't matter, which they have done for the past ten years and is what brought us to this. That way ironically leads to all the problems that people think happen with multiverse. Now nothing does matter, and the show can't escape its past, because every time it tries to reboot like the Timeless Children, it is having to rewrite previous stories and people get pissed and in order to overcome that backlash it has to do what we are seeing now. Drowning in member berries to get the old fans back, which stops it from winning any new fans.

2/ You do an in universe reboot where a character goes back and changes the history of the universe and everything is different, giving you a clean slate. Those kinds of stories are almost always awful, as they are far more complicated, again make out nothing matters as we can always just reboot the universe, and in something like DW where the character can't change time too often it leads to all kinds of problems. 

 
The multiverse is actually the most straight forward solution to this problem with this in mind. Just different productions, different universes that can be linked in rare crossovers for fans, but otherwise are new productions where you don't have to wank off to the past every time something is different. 

 

[iank]

I do want Sylv to exist in a different realm than Tensquee, because they clearly do already. New Who has always been an embarrassing reboot. I don't need them to tell that, but I do find it funny that they have.

[rushy]

Nov 2, 2023 21:00:29 GMT iank said:

I don't need them to tell that

This. I don't see the point of RTD canonising different timelines. If it bothers me, it's already not canon to me. 

It's like if Malek Akkad came forward and said that Michael Myers is a dimension-hopping demon who torments Laurie Strode through all eternity in various timelines. It's not a clever way to tie all the films together, it's just a dumb desperate attempt to please everyone instead of just getting on with telling good stories. Count whichever films you damn well please. Move on and stop tampering with the continuity already. 

[burrunjor]

Nov 2, 2023 21:00:29 GMT iank said:

I do want Sylv to exist in a different realm than Tensquee, because they clearly do already. New Who has always been an embarrassing reboot. I don't need them to tell that, but I do find it funny that they have.

To be fair I'd still want alternate sequels even if I hadn't become frustrated with New Who. 

Like I said sooner or later DW is going to have to reboot. Its' format allows it to have a long life, yes, but it can't go on forever. The human race won't go on forever LOL. Even with its format, the Doctor as a whole's story will reach an end. Now ideally that should have been when he reached his 13th life, but Michael Grade buggered that up and honestly given the gap between Classic Who and any potential sequel, and given the other sequels that had been made in the interim, a revival was always only going to be that productions idea of what happened next, which is fine. 

Classic Who deserves to stand as its own completed work of fiction. That's what it is, why should anyone and I include myself in that, have the right to decide what happened next to other people's stories? You might say well that's the same throughout classic who, but it's not. Classic Who was one work that changed hands slowly behind the scenes and evolved naturally. In 1989 it came to a grinding halt and was basically gone for almost two decades, with an entirely new team coming along. By that stage classic who was like the original Arthur Conan Doyle Sherlock Holmes stories. The original work, with everything else being adaptations, or alternate sequels you can pick and choose from.

That is basically all I want for classic who, and again let's be honest unless it is going to have the same canon in 600 years, that's what will happen. All the multiverse is, is just a way of linking them together through tiny, otherwise unimportant and rare crossovers, and it's a fun thing you can do with DW unlike Holmes because it already has alternate universes and even implied alternate Doctors like Battlefield. 

People again I think just here multiverse and assume it's going to be like Crisis on Infinite Earths it annoys me. (BTW the worst multiverse stories like Crisis were written by people who HATE the multiverse formula. Marv Wolfman thought it was the worst idea for all the same reasons as the anti multiverse hipsters like Critical Drinker do today and that's why he wrote the most overly complicated, universes dying, being merged shite to get rid of it, always remember that.)

[burrunjor]

Nov 2, 2023 21:04:53 GMT rushy said:

Nov 2, 2023 21:00:29 GMT iank said:

I don't need them to tell that

This. I don't see the point of RTD canonising different timelines. If it bothers me, it's already not canon to me. 

It's like if Malek Akkad came forward and said that Michael Myers is a dimension-hopping demon who torments Laurie Strode through all eternity in various timelines. It's not a clever way to tie all the films together, it's just a dumb desperate attempt to please everyone instead of just getting on with telling good stories. Count whichever films you damn well please. Move on and stop tampering with the continuity already. 

Not the same thing at all. Halloween doesn't lend itself to alternate universes and that would actually be tampering with the stories in the sequels where Michael's whole thing is killing his sister. Also again this bullshit of I can just ignore it ironically leads to the Timeless Children. Why bother with it, if nothing matters. I know how about I do a story where we find out the Doctors name, have him eat a live chicken, have the earth get blown up and the Doctor regenerate into a pig? 

By the logic of I'll just ignore it, we can just pretend that story never happened and not bother explaining it which makes the whole thing look like a sloppy mess and puts people off watching it. Also the point is its harder to go on and tell new stories when it all has to be one thing. As I said eventually you reach a natural end, and then when you try and be clever and reboot it in universe, or just ignore it, you piss off the original fans, and then have to wallow in member berries to bring them back, which rarely works but does succeed in driving away new fans. 

Different productions, different universes fixes all of that and allows you to actually move on. 

[rushy]

Nov 2, 2023 21:08:41 GMT burrunjor said:

(BTW the worst multiverse stories like Crisis were written by people who HATE the multiverse formula. Marv Wolfman thought it was the worst idea for all the same reasons as the anti multiverse hipsters like Critical Drinker do today and that's why he wrote the most overly complicated, universes dying, being merged shite to get rid of it, always remember that.)

[rushy]

Nov 2, 2023 21:13:42 GMT burrunjor said:

By the logic of I'll just ignore it, we can just pretend that story never happened and not bother explaining it which makes the whole thing look like a sloppy mess and puts people off watching it.

Yes. That's how "f*cking up" works. There is no un-f*cking it. You chin up and move on.

Making it multiple universes or something only draws further attention to how desperate the production is. It's actively putting me off from wanting to have anything more to do with Doctor Who.

EDIT: Sorry to be so grumpy about it, but this multiverse thing grinds my gears lol 

[Deleted]

I don't have a problem at all with the concept, I just don't think it fits in this instance. Maybe in terms of headcanon, but it would be a stupid thing to do officially, and would probably anger more classic fans than nufans. Also the word "multiverse" makes me so very tired...it's just too much to think about for a Saturday tea-time sci-fi show. The reason I was drawn to Who fandom initially was because it was full of people who liked the stories rather than arguing about which timeline is which and all that other bullshit. That sort of thing just doesn't fit a show like this. Look at how the Silence arc flopped. It's the wrong format, the wrong show.

[burrunjor]

Nov 2, 2023 21:14:52 GMT rushy said:

Nov 2, 2023 21:08:41 GMT burrunjor said:

(BTW the worst multiverse stories like Crisis were written by people who HATE the multiverse formula. Marv Wolfman thought it was the worst idea for all the same reasons as the anti multiverse hipsters like Critical Drinker do today and that's why he wrote the most overly complicated, universes dying, being merged shite to get rid of it, always remember that.)

Oh sorry I wasn't having a go if you thought I was. It just gets frustrated as whenever you bring up multiverses everyone assumes it's going to be this big complicated thing and it's the opposite. Meanwhile the likes of Marv Wolfman who did the epitome of that type of multiverse story, that gave rise to the likes of The Flash where every universe is in danger etc. That came about because of a multiverse backlash in the 80s. 

To be fair back then it had been done to death in DC, but much like the Time Lords, the solution wasn't to destroy it, just........ not use it for a while!

[burrunjor]

Nov 2, 2023 21:19:04 GMT @theyakemperor said:

I don't have a problem at all with the concept, I just don't think it fits in this instance. Maybe in terms of headcanon, but it would be a stupid thing to do officially, and would probably anger more classic fans than nufans. Also the word "multiverse" makes me so very tired...it's just too much to think about for a Saturday tea-time sci-fi show. The reason I was drawn to Who fandom initially was because it was full of people who liked the stories rather than arguing about which timeline is which and all that other bullshit. That sort of thing just doesn't fit a show like this. Look at how the Silence arc flopped. It's the wrong format, the wrong show.

There is a difference between different timelines and universes. 

Timelines are when you go back and change things and it becomes overly complicated. The Silence arc is a prime example of this. Also hilariously enough the Silence arc wouldn't have happened with my multiverse format. 

It only happened because Moffat wanted to wipe out earth being aware of aliens in the RTD era on the grounds that as DW will keep going forever, then in 20 years time we don't want writers to have to reference Journey's End. 

However if they were using my format, with New Who being its own universe, then they could have kept that on the grounds that this production will be finished in 20 years in time and the next one, will be its own universe, or can be a loose sequel to the original, so RTD's and any other stories in this one matter, and don't have to be wiped out in timeline changes. 

Now granted timelines and universes are often used interchangably which is annoying (like in the Flash, part of why its explanation was as Keaton himself said "a hot mess.") Still again in my way, it gets rid of that. 

Meanwhile like I said things taking place in different realities, well that happens in any long running character that has to be adapted and retold. Only difference is as DW can make it canon in universes. 

Also bare in mind as I am always saying you can keep it vague. Like I said if you want new who can still take place in the same universe as old who. All we know now is that there are other universes, and other alternatives to what happened next. Unless on screen a version of the Doctor says "I am the one you saw from 1963=1989" then it will never be told, once again allowing Classic Who to either exist on its own, or you take one of the sequels as canon. 

I don't see how that would piss people off more to be honest. I think people are only scared because of the multiverse fad, they think it would entail Doctor of 1000 earths miniseries, like Loki and again some big shit story like Crisis that tries to fix it and destroys everything. Those are legit worries for the multiverse format, but just because something is abused doesn't mean it's bad, and the other format hasn't worked out.